A buffalo’s first bowtie |
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JoeinNY
Grand Poobah Joined: October-19-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5695 |
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Well a rod would change with RPM but I would still be thinking valve train, it was first dyno run last year on my 408 that a collapsed lifter (actually two) did me in.
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BuffaloBFN
Grand Poobah Joined: June-24-2007 Location: Gainesville,GA Status: Offline Points: 6094 |
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That's funny cat! LOL I did knock out the baffles; you may remember that 1 was loose...and I promise you that the unwelcome sound cannot be heard from the stern! Actually it sounds damn good but for the 1 issue, and one has to be in the right spot to hear it at all. I'll have the covers off in an hour or so and we'll see!
If it was a rod, it doesn't seem to me like the sound would change with rpm's, so I'm praying it's a rocker I didn't get just right. Those rockers were the part I was least familiar with so... My slip is still floating with 3-4 feet at the entrance. Come by if you like...we call my area Little River Pond...and not because it's down. It's an isolated area that not so many know about! |
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skicat
Platinum Member Joined: May-18-2006 Location: Duluth, GA Status: Offline Points: 1128 |
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Just take those mufflers off & it will go away! Or at least you may not hear it. Just kidding- hope you get it figured out. Bout time to pick that pumpkin!
I might be up your way this weekend. I think I know the general area you are in. Can you still get to your dock, or is it in the mud already? |
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BuffaloBFN
Grand Poobah Joined: June-24-2007 Location: Gainesville,GA Status: Offline Points: 6094 |
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Well, for a few seconds I thought the fuel pump was the problem...then I started to hear it again...almost like a lifter pumped up. The sound does change with rpm's. It seems stronger when the rpm's are changing; almost don't hear it at a steady rpm. I did pull the front 4 plugs wires 1 at a time with no change.
I'll know as soon as it cools off. |
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lewy2001
Grand Poobah Joined: March-19-2008 Location: NSW Australia Status: Offline Points: 2234 |
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Buffalo,
I think I feel your pain, as most of the others following the threads on your boat & engine would be. Devastating but as Joe said dont accept defeat too easily and pull the engine prematurely. Remove plug leads one at a time to identify which rod bearing it may be. Hopefully there is no change and it is a lifter or something less than a bigend bearing. |
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If you're going through hell, keep going
89 Ski <a href="http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=5685" ta |
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BuffaloBFN
Grand Poobah Joined: June-24-2007 Location: Gainesville,GA Status: Offline Points: 6094 |
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The bearings were in a kit that the machinist ordered. He used a few things out of it(brass casting plugs,etc) and the rest was for me to assemble. Kit isn't the right word...he asked me a few particulars and ordered the engine parts himself. I talked to a friend of our's and he reminded me that the only thing that stinks in the pudding is the fuel pump. I also just learned that they have flange numbers. I think I'll bang it over 1 more time with the old fuel pump on it and see if the noise is still there. It won't take but a second to tell. Odds are that I didn't miss a bolt or put a rod on bacerds so I'll do some investigating in the morning! |
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JoeinNY
Grand Poobah Joined: October-19-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5695 |
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Harmonic balancers can alse make a heck of a racket.
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81nautique
Grand Poobah Joined: September-03-2005 Location: Big Rock, Il Status: Offline Points: 5772 |
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Wow, I feel sick for you Greg. Are you sure it's a rod, I've heard cracked pulleys make some aweful noises. Could have broken when you torqued them down. It's not a damper plate noise right? I agree with Joe, if it wasn't for concern of breaking in the cam I'd run it and pull some plug wires to see which cylinder is bad. Hard to tell you what to do without knowing if it truly is a rod but at this point I think I'd talk to my machinist and confirm his measurements of the crank and see if he told you to get the correct size bearings. I'm assuming thats where that information came from unless you micro'd everything yourself. |
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You can’t change the wind but you can adjust your sails
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BuffaloBFN
Grand Poobah Joined: June-24-2007 Location: Gainesville,GA Status: Offline Points: 6094 |
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I'm not all PO'd...more like someone shot my new puppy?!!?
It's already back in the garage cooling off and I'll do whatever I have to. FWIW, it sounded great unless I was right in front of the engine... |
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BuffaloBFN
Grand Poobah Joined: June-24-2007 Location: Gainesville,GA Status: Offline Points: 6094 |
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It was polished only I think. All of the rotating parts were gone through by the machine shop. The crank was balanced and the parts matched...at least that's what I paid for. |
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JoeinNY
Grand Poobah Joined: October-19-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5695 |
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Dont get all worst case on us yet, if it wasnt for the cam needing to be broken in I would say futz around with it pulling plug wires while its running. But in this case I say pull the valve covers and check for loose push rods or play in the rockers before you get all crazy pulling the engine. If you pull the engine and its just one rod end I would say you have nothing to loose by just fixing that and giving it a run, whats the worst that can happen you need to rebuild it again.. since you can pull the engine yourself I would take the risk...
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79nautique
Grand Poobah Joined: January-27-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 7872 |
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did you have the crank turned or just use it as is?
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BuffaloBFN
Grand Poobah Joined: June-24-2007 Location: Gainesville,GA Status: Offline Points: 6094 |
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Trajedy is a bit mild I think! When I started it I was going to follow Alan's last post and ran it right up to 2000. I backed off when I heard the noise and have started it twice for a few seconds after. The noise is different each time, and I went around it with my crow bar looking for the knocking...can't really find it. I was hoping it would be the valve covers, but I couldn't hear a solid rap there. So I cleaned up the garage and am about to pull the %$#$% again...it's a half day job getting the engine out with my tools. If it is a rod and the noise has been changing-going from louder to softer and not as rythmic and almost nothing at idle before I shut it off; that means there is metal all in the low end and it's another rebuild? |
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JoeinNY
Grand Poobah Joined: October-19-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5695 |
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Tragedy perhaps, what rpm were you running at?
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BuffaloBFN
Grand Poobah Joined: June-24-2007 Location: Gainesville,GA Status: Offline Points: 6094 |
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The good, the bad, and the ugly?!!?
I found the wire that pulled loose and it started right up and ran beautifully... EXCEPT I think I have a rod knocking. The noise is solid sounding and seems to be low in the front...it's also rythmic and in perfect sync with rpm's. It is the original crank and rods, so all I can think is that I missed a rod bolt somewhere...not sure how though because I triple checked everything. If anyone knows of something I'm missing, I'm all ears. |
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81nautique
Grand Poobah Joined: September-03-2005 Location: Big Rock, Il Status: Offline Points: 5772 |
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Greg, Do not be cranking that motor trying to get it to start. You will be grinding your cam to dust, you had it running so get it back where it was and fire it up in the driveway. Immediately up to 2000-2500 for a minumum of 20 minutes, just watch oil pressure and water temp. Vary your rpms by a few thousand every 30 seconds . Don't screw with timing or air mixtures until you idle it back down after your full 20 minute break in. This is a critical time for your engine, tuning it comes later. |
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You can’t change the wind but you can adjust your sails
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BuffaloBFN
Grand Poobah Joined: June-24-2007 Location: Gainesville,GA Status: Offline Points: 6094 |
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I have pics, but I have some more to diagnose. I took it to the ramp and it wouldn't start. The only thing that changed was the depth finder install so I'm guessing I pulled a wire loose somewhere else under the dash. It's acting like it's not getting fire, but I'm to tired and too bent to figure it out now. |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Greg, I'm very happy to here the good news but where are the pictures??
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BuffaloBFN
Grand Poobah Joined: June-24-2007 Location: Gainesville,GA Status: Offline Points: 6094 |
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Yes |
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81nautique
Grand Poobah Joined: September-03-2005 Location: Big Rock, Il Status: Offline Points: 5772 |
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That was my procedure but it sounds more believable coming from you , thank you. I was also told to change the oil after cam breakin then go to the lake and continue breaking the motor in/setting the rings. |
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You can’t change the wind but you can adjust your sails
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BuffaloBFN
Grand Poobah Joined: June-24-2007 Location: Gainesville,GA Status: Offline Points: 6094 |
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Thanks Joe, I don't have the experience with this that you guys do. If I had know it would hit that soon, I guess on the ramp would have been better...but I didn't know to run the rpm's that high at first either.
Warm it up a little or go straight to higher rpm's? I guess immediately answers my question... |
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JoeinNY
Grand Poobah Joined: October-19-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5695 |
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Its critical for the first twenty minutes to not turn it over slowly or idle, get it immediately to 1800 to 2200 rpm and vary up and down in that range every 30 secs or so, after that you can bring it down, mess with the carb, check timing, etc.
The speed allows oil to be splashed up by the crank removing any debris generated by the wearing in of the lobe and lifter, without serious oil at this time things can go bad. Additionally depending on the springs/lift sometimes this needs to be done with the inner spring removed. But thats usually serious lift. |
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79nautique
Grand Poobah Joined: January-27-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 7872 |
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I guess give it 20 minute or so to warm up and break the cam in, usually that time is used up setting the carb, and timing and checking for leaks in the drive and varing the RPM some.
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BuffaloBFN
Grand Poobah Joined: June-24-2007 Location: Gainesville,GA Status: Offline Points: 6094 |
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So what are you guys saying? I only bumped it over 4 times and intend to have it in the water tonight to follow Chris' break-in proceedure. I have the valvoline racing with the ZDDP(I do read a lot here), and I did use a lot of assembly lube.
If anyone has something to say...please, now would be good! |
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JoeinNY
Grand Poobah Joined: October-19-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5695 |
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FYI, I dont disagree with this, its the low speed operation that will kill the cam, not running it hard. Even cranking it over in the driveway at all is techinically a no no, getting it up to 1800-2200 rpm as soon as possible is key, especially if your running a hot cam and dont use break in springs. |
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JoeinNY
Grand Poobah Joined: October-19-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5695 |
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Chris I gotta disagree, cam has to be broken in immediately if new, then you go into the run it like you stole it break in. If the cam doesnt get splash lubrication during the 20 or so first minutes your likely toast and certainly not covered by warranty from the cam manufacturer. 20 minutes shouldnt be enough to break in the bottom end without sealing the rings.
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79nautique
Grand Poobah Joined: January-27-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 7872 |
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as long as he used cam lube on the lobes generously and has the right oil in it then the cam will be fine if you try and wait for the cam to break in then you will loose the ring seat. they load on the cam and valve train is constant and will not change with RPM or torque of the motor. |
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81nautique
Grand Poobah Joined: September-03-2005 Location: Big Rock, Il Status: Offline Points: 5772 |
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What about cam break in, I didn't read back through this whole thread but you're running a regular flat tappet cam right?
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You can’t change the wind but you can adjust your sails
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BuffaloBFN
Grand Poobah Joined: June-24-2007 Location: Gainesville,GA Status: Offline Points: 6094 |
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YaaaaHooooooo!!!!!!! and YeeeeeeHaaaaaaw!!!!!!!
It hit almost immediately. I don't think it turned 2 times before it was running. It only hit and I started it 3 more times till it wanted to keep running, but it was less than 30 secs all together. Now it's time to wire in the depth finder and then go for a ride! I want to thank everyone from the bottom of my heart who helped me along the way...I actually want to show it to yall more than go for a ride?!!? |
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79nautique
Grand Poobah Joined: January-27-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 7872 |
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start it set the timing set the rough settings on the carb and turn it back off and wait until you can run it in the lake.
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