Leo Bentz, Ski Nautique and Boat #1 |
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phatsat67
Grand Poobah Joined: March-13-2006 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 6147 |
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This thing is so cool. I don't have any correct parts but I could offer weekend help sometime ha.
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skutsch
Grand Poobah Joined: June-19-2008 Location: Racine, WI Status: Offline Points: 2874 |
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It ended up in MN: 1958 Starfire. I am on the fence about bringing it home, I need more barn space... |
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Riley
Grand Poobah Joined: January-19-2004 Location: Portland, ME Status: Offline Points: 7946 |
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Looks like a great engine Alan. For some reason a 272 can be bored out to a 292 and a 292 can be bored out to a 312, but a 272 cannot be bored out to a 312.
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ArtCozier
Platinum Member Joined: April-25-2012 Location: Orlando FL Status: Offline Points: 1023 |
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Guys, as I understand it from two different sources, you can't make a true-blue 312 out of anything else. The crank journals are bigger on a 312 than on any other Y-block. You can make a 312 cubic inch engine, but it's still not a "real" one.
I have been told that the only way to externally identify a real 312 is to look on the outside diameter of the flywheel flange on the crank for a cast-in "dot" that is about the size of an Aspirin tablet. I've been looking for a complete RH 312 for my '63. I have a bunch of parts and two partial engines, but I don 't know if any of the stuff I have is any good. |
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"Art"
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Eether
Groupie Joined: October-20-2015 Location: Greenville Status: Offline Points: 64 |
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Ha, was just typing that out and saw Art beat me.. The 312 really is a different animal. Sourcing a block from a non marine environment sounds like a good plan as one side of mine had to be sleeved. Sadly, a truck shop near here had stacks of 312 engines that ended up at the scrap yard a few years ago..
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Riley
Grand Poobah Joined: January-19-2004 Location: Portland, ME Status: Offline Points: 7946 |
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I was looking at a 292 on a stand today that is getting ready to be rebuilt and the way it was explained to me is that the journals on a 312 are larger to accommodate the larger diameter crank, but Ford took away material from the caps, so they are not as beefy as they are in the smaller displacement engines. This guy said grinding the 312 crank down to fit into the 292 journals makes for a stronger engine.
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lewy2001
Grand Poobah Joined: March-19-2008 Location: NSW Australia Status: Offline Points: 2234 |
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If you're going through hell, keep going
89 Ski <a href="http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=5685" ta |
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ArtCozier
Platinum Member Joined: April-25-2012 Location: Orlando FL Status: Offline Points: 1023 |
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It's my understanding that 312s have a bad habit of breaking rod caps. Boat Dr. had one that broke a crank. People on the web say that a stock 292 is a stronger engine. For some reason, I'm still partial to 312s because one of those is what got me involved in this whole boating and skiing world. I could be talked into using a 292. I could tell people that it's a 312, but I don't do that sort of thing!
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"Art"
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Riley
Grand Poobah Joined: January-19-2004 Location: Portland, ME Status: Offline Points: 7946 |
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I bet you wouldn't be the first! |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Mark,
Interesting find on identifying the Y block. I found some more with a casting # listing: Y-BLOCK CASTING NUMBERS ALL BLOCKS HAVE 6015 in the block casting number. This is found on all blocks and is Ford's number for an engine block. Example- EDB 6015 E BLOCK I.D. CODES NOTES CEBY 256-272 cu in Cast in Canada. Export block. Used in Canada, Australia, South Africa CECK 292 cu in Cast in Canada. Export block. Used in Canada, Australia ect EAA 215 cu. in. I-6 1952-53 Ford OHV six cylinder. Increased to 223 in '54. See EBP EAD 317 cu. in. V8 1952-54. Early Lincoln OHV engine. Not interchangeable with Ford. see Lincoln page www.ford-y-block.com EAL 279 cu. in. V8 1954 Ford HD truck. see Lincoln page. EAM 317 cu. in. V8 1954 Ford HD truck. see Lincoln page. www.ford-y-block.com EBJ 341 cu. in. V8 1955. Early Lincoln OHV engine. See Lincoln page. ECU 368 cu. in. V8 1956-57. Early Lincoln OHV engine. See Lincoln page. EBP 223 cu. in. I-6 1954- cars & Lt. trucks. EBR, EBS, EBT in HD trucks EBU 239 cu. in. V8 1954 cars only. Cleveland and Dearborn versions. EBV 239 cu. in. V8 1955 pickup, small cam bearings www.ford-y-block.com EBY 256 cu. in. V8 1954 Mercury ECG 272 cu. in V8 1955 to 57 cars and trucks. Typically Dearborn casting. ECH 292 cu. in. V8 1955 www.ford-y-block.com ECJ 292 cu. in. V8 1955 ECL 292 cu. in. V8 1955 ECK 292 cu. in. V8 1955-56 www.ford-y-block.com EDB-A 292 cu. in. V8 1955-57 if cast at Dearborn Foundry. EDB found near distributor and generator B5AE 272 cu in V8 1959 Replacement block for 272. May have been used for marine & fleet PLEASE NOTE: 292 and 312 Blocks were machined from the same castings with the same markings. If the following blocks have EBU main caps it is a 292, if it has ECZ main caps it is a 312. ECZ-A 292-312 cu. in. V8 1956 ECZ 6015 A With EBU main caps =292. ECZ main caps =312 Check crank flange or main caps. ECZ-B 292-312 cu in V8 1956-57 292 or 312 ECZ -C 312 cu. in. V8 1957 ECZ 6015 C. 292 with EBU main caps. EDB-E 292 cu. in V8 1958-59 cars and trucks to April 59. 312 in Mercury B9AE-F 292 cu. in. V8 1959-60 cars and trucks. (312 with ECZ main caps, 1959 & 60 Mercury only) C1AE-R 292 cu. in. V8 1961 cars and trucks www.ford-y-block.com C2AE-C 292 cu. in. V8 1962 cars 62-64 trucks B7ME 312 cu. in. V8 1962? later 312 replacement block. C2AE main webs. Only example seen was a marine engine NOTE: 6015 is Ford's number for an engine block. All blocks have this number. This is from Jim Mummerts website |
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81nautique
Grand Poobah Joined: September-03-2005 Location: Big Rock, Il Status: Offline Points: 5767 |
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That's the site I used to identify the motor I just picked up, it is a B5AE, 1959 272. I too want a 312 for correctness but an option would be to bore this one to a 292. I'm going to get this motor running and do some tests on it to see what kid of shape it's in, if it's a decent motor I'm hesitant to just strip it for parts unless we simply can't find what we want. Then I would send this one out and let the machine shop determine if it can be bored.
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Alan,
I remember when Billy was working on those Y blocks of his, he called and talked with Jim Mummerts. I understand is he sure knows the engines even the RR's. |
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Eether
Groupie Joined: October-20-2015 Location: Greenville Status: Offline Points: 64 |
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John Mummert and Ted Eaton of Eaton balancing are both great resources. Sorry if I missed it, but would you be putting a rr engine in the boat given the left hand helm?
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Ethan,
Alan is lucky since the SN #1 was built with a port helm. |
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ArtCozier
Platinum Member Joined: April-25-2012 Location: Orlando FL Status: Offline Points: 1023 |
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Alan, I was kind of wondering the same thing that Eether mentioned. The only downside of a RH engine in a port-side drive boat is that the counter-torque will tend to add to the driver's weight on the port side of the boat and cause it to run more left-side down when you have the driver only in the boat. You might also find that it will be a bit more difficult to dock with the pier on the port side, but no worse than most other brands of ski boats with the standard rotation props and starboard-side drivers' station.
With the newer boats, it is more of a problem having a LH engine in the starboard-side drive boats, because the bottoms and rudders are asymmetrical to compensate for the torque. The early boats are in fact asymmetrical, but purely by happenstance. Call me if you wish to discuss. |
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"Art"
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81nautique
Grand Poobah Joined: September-03-2005 Location: Big Rock, Il Status: Offline Points: 5767 |
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I think somewhere down the line someone got crossed up but I have always planned to put a standard rotation (left hand prop) motor in the boat.
The motor I just picked up is a right hander, I mentioned indexing the pump on the velvet drive that came with it so I could put it on a lefty, maybe that's where it got confusing. Ps. the Hurricane spins a right hander but my 2012 200 Sport spins a lefty and as long as I remember what boat I'm driving docking either boat is not a problem. They are certainly different approaches but neither is difficult. |
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Riley
Grand Poobah Joined: January-19-2004 Location: Portland, ME Status: Offline Points: 7946 |
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Sometimes there is a momentary delay during remembering part. I don't know about you, but we will be going to White Lake if you need anything from you northeast. |
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ArtCozier
Platinum Member Joined: April-25-2012 Location: Orlando FL Status: Offline Points: 1023 |
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Hey Alan.....Despite the LH engine, your SPN turns a RH prop due to the reversal in the 1.2 to 1 transmission. If the Hurricane has a 1 to 1 on a RH engine, they should feel the same. It's the prop rotation, not the engine rotation, that imparts the torque to the hull.
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"Art"
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ArtCozier
Platinum Member Joined: April-25-2012 Location: Orlando FL Status: Offline Points: 1023 |
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Oh,wait!!!!! It's a V-Drive SPN, isn't it??? I was thinking direct drive. Mea Culpa!
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"Art"
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63 Skier
Grand Poobah Joined: October-06-2006 Location: Concord, NH Status: Offline Points: 4232 |
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I had a '74 Triumph Bonneville, with right foot shift and left foot rear brake. While still owning it, I bought an '81 Honda 900 Super Sport, with the now standard left foot shift, right foot brake. Talk about confusing, and an accident waiting to happen owning both at the same time. I'd get on one, particularly the Triumph, and go up and down the local side street a couple of times to condition my memory. |
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'63 American Skier - '98 Sport Nautique
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phatsat67
Grand Poobah Joined: March-13-2006 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 6147 |
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Alan almost caught Art!! |
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ArtCozier
Platinum Member Joined: April-25-2012 Location: Orlando FL Status: Offline Points: 1023 |
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My mind automatically blocks out anything with the engine turned around backwards in the boat. The only time a flywheel should be toward the front of the boat was in the old days when they had to turn them around to make RH engines.
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"Art"
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Art, My mind does the same!! BTW, engines weren't turned around backwards to create RR engines. They were turned around to get them lower in the bilge since they had such large flywheels. The RR was just a by product of turning them around! Now Higgins put true RR rotation engines in their small craft. Flywheel forward, a port helm and swinging a LH prop! |
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roberto1612
Newbie Joined: December-02-2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2 |
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I have a Interceptor Y block engine and marine trans which came from a small Trojan. I can check the year and size if you are interested in it. My guess is that its a 1960-62 292 cube and it is a Velvet Drive trans (probably 1:1). I do not have the marine manifolds at this time. I do have most every thing else though and it is very clean inside. but will need rebuild.
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IAughtNaut
Grand Poobah Joined: August-22-2010 Location: TN Status: Offline Points: 2568 |
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ArtCozier
Platinum Member Joined: April-25-2012 Location: Orlando FL Status: Offline Points: 1023 |
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Alan, I think that you already have an engine lined up. If that is not so, or if you have any interest in this 292, you certainly have first option at it. If, however, you are not interested, and IF it is a reverse rotation, i.e. a RIGHT HAND ROTATATION engine, I would be interested. Roberto, you might send me a PM if you want with any details that you might have. Thanks, guys! |
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"Art"
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81nautique
Grand Poobah Joined: September-03-2005 Location: Big Rock, Il Status: Offline Points: 5767 |
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Art, let's see what it is and where it is and go from there. One of us can use it, I'm not going to use the block I just picked up, that was for Interceptor parts only so I'm still searching. Going the 292 route is certainly an option right now. Roberto, I sent you a PM so we can get the details. Thank you |
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ArtCozier
Platinum Member Joined: April-25-2012 Location: Orlando FL Status: Offline Points: 1023 |
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I'll stand aside and wait to see what develops. I still need to go look at the 2 engines that I know of in FL.
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"Art"
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ScottZ
Platinum Member Joined: January-20-2004 Location: Clanton, AL Status: Offline Points: 1143 |
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I have located the windshield. It does not have the brackets or the gasket. I will be happy to donate it to the cause. In the meantime I will look around to see if I can locate some brackets.
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Scott Zuelzke
Lake Mitchell , AL 1984 Ski Nautique 1972 Skier |
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C-Bass
Platinum Member Joined: November-18-2008 Location: Columbus, IN Status: Offline Points: 1248 |
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Does anyone have a picture of the brackets you're looking for. I have a pair that don't match the split windshield, but I think might be for the single piece.
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