82 Floor Repair (I need help) |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Jon4, When my Tique stringers were replaced, small have half round cutouts at stratigic locations were cut into the bottoms where it meets the floor. The cutouts were then glassed before the stringers were installed to seal them. So in therory if the water gets below the floor, it will drain to the lowest point under the engine.
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boat dr
Grand Poobah Joined: June-27-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4245 |
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Eric, i was told ,same glue same wood, the difference is the VOIDS. Marine has 0% voids,where the other designations,A/B,A/C have more or less voids.JMHO, but what do I know?????
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jon4pres
Senior Member Joined: September-19-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 275 |
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Even if it has closed cell foam the water is still going to be trapped under it sitting against the secondary stringers.
When it all goes back together there will be TONS of epoxy used but I am also thinking that if I go with no foam and make a removable floor then I can pull those sections of the floor out and really dry the boat out. |
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eric lavine
Grand Poobah Joined: August-13-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 13413 |
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Is it worth the extra doe? probably not if your coating both sides and edges and then painting it.
most times people are'nt coating it and waterproofing it, I have used plywoods in the past i did not coat it, up in front bunks and so on. the best thing is keeping any wood dry and it will last for years |
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"the things you own will start to own you"
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21131 |
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Remember, the newer foams are closed cell and dont absorb water like your original foam did. When I did my floor repair, I noticed the water travelled down the stringer because it wasnt being absorbed into the foam. I only removed the foam that was either detached from the hull, or in the way of my stringer repair. |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Waterdog, You may have gotten a piece of Okoume marine ply. It is allot lighter than Fir ply. One thing though, It is NOT very rot resistent and is ment for epoxy saturation so make sure its coated real good. If you got it from someone who is building boats with a epoxy system, then that's probably what he had.
Eric, you're close on the marine difference. It's really the inner plys on marine that have a very tight allowence for gaps between the pieces of veneer. Otherwise both Exterior and Marine use the same phenolic based glues. |
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The Lake
Platinum Member Joined: May-13-2005 Location: Lk Winnebago MO Status: Offline Points: 1157 |
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Marine Plywood does not have any voids in the interior plys. It's face on both sides is b grade, meaning it is sanded, can have knots, but they must be tight. The glue used is an exterior (water proof) glue. It is not treated with any preservative.
Chuck |
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Waterdog
Grand Poobah Joined: April-27-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2020 |
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The marine 3/4 ply wood I bought has a couple more plys in it and is a lot lighter weight than other ply wood almost like bulsa wood.When I drilled holes in it the drill bit had a tar like adhesive on it. $85 a sheet but worth it. ( I think )
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eric lavine
Grand Poobah Joined: August-13-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 13413 |
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Im not certain but was told that the only difference between normal ply and marine ply is the finish, which seems true because the ply i bought had a filler on the face and was sanded smooth, i also coated both sides and the edges. next time I'll save the money.......thats the first time i also ever used marine ply, i guess the ora is people think that it is waterproof and it isnt
Save the money for something else |
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"the things you own will start to own you"
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nates78ski
Platinum Member Joined: January-24-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1041 |
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Eric do you think the marine grade plywood is necessary? ive always just gotten normal plywood & coated all the edges thoroughly and put a few coats on top & bottom.
Nate |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Jon4, There are lots of pros and cons on weather to or not foam. There was a rather involved thread on it. Do a search.
My Tique was not foamed under the floor when the stringers were redone. Foam for flotation was added on the bottom sides of the forward and rear decks as well as under the gunnels. |
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jon4pres
Senior Member Joined: September-19-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 275 |
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Thanks for the info. I was hoping it would be less but whats another thousand right.
Eric you are really tempting me with to not go with foam. It just seems to me tha the foam is going to get wet at some point. Plus now I find out that it is the most expensive part of the job. I guess I have a little time before I have to make that decision. I have decided that I am going to work across the floor from passenger side to the drivers. I have 90% of the flooring taken up and the secondary stringers on the passenger side are completely gone. I am leaving the drivers side in and using them as a pattern. Once I have the passengers side secondary stringers done I will move to the drivers side secondary stringers. Then I will work on the main stringers one at a time. This method seems like a good way to do it ot me because I can always go look at the other side and use it as a pattern. I still have to pull the motor but I think that I can get Dad's skid loader tonight and get that out. |
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eric lavine
Grand Poobah Joined: August-13-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 13413 |
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expect to spend at least a $1000.00 in materials, if you use plywood expect to spend 95.00 per sheet 3/4 marine,
you could get away cheaper with out the foam, the foam with shipping is about $80.00 per kit, I used 5 kits sparringly there is alot of hidden costs as discussed in another post |
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"the things you own will start to own you"
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21131 |
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I believe SkiBum said recently that he had spent ~$1k on all his supplies. I believe that would include gelcoat, so thats more than it would cost you. I would say a complete floor and stringer job would cost $700-1000 in materials, including carpet. |
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jon4pres
Senior Member Joined: September-19-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 275 |
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After getting home from work and realizing that everything is mush. I dont know what to do.
I am not trying to give a sob story here but I dont know what to do. I have never laid fiberglass in my life. I dont know the first thing about what I am in the middle of and most importantly I dont know how much it is going to cost but I do know that money is a little tight right now being 24 and having a wife who is still in college. Can anyone let me know around what this is going to cost. |
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eric lavine
Grand Poobah Joined: August-13-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 13413 |
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it does provide structural support, boyancy, deadens sound..... I really dont like it but those are 3 good reasons to use it,
you cold pour it around the tanks you install and they really wont move |
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"the things you own will start to own you"
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jon4pres
Senior Member Joined: September-19-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 275 |
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Thanks guys. I will not use the composite.
Eric, What do you mean by "you really should refoam it", If I make the ballast tanks they will be in place of the foam. I want to go without the foam. I see no purpose to put foam back in the boat that is going to get wet. If I go with a plywood floor I will not need it for structure either. |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Jon, Don't even consider using the "decking" composite wood. It is made from recycled polypropelene bottles (milk bottles) and wood flour. It is also used for glue bottles because glue won't stick to it. So, epoxy resin / fiberglass won't stick ether!! It also isn't as strong and does bend. When you use it for decking material you even need to space the joists closer than you would with normal 2X material (wood).
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eric lavine
Grand Poobah Joined: August-13-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 13413 |
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Jon, there is no reason why you couldnt incorporate the tanks into the structural sections of the boat, once a boat is in the water you get even stress points dispersed accross the hull of the boat, unlike the trailer where the weight would be concentrated on whatever area it is touching.
you could tie the tanks right into the stringers and struts and it would be part of the structure you really should refoam it and stay away from the composites, wood has grain and once you spend many countless hours working on the floors I doubt you will be leaving it out in the rain to fill with water or leaving it uncovered from the elements. there is no reason a boat shouldnt last 30 years after a repair with wood |
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"the things you own will start to own you"
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jon4pres
Senior Member Joined: September-19-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 275 |
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What do you think about using composite wood. I know I have seen deck boards that are made of a composite material. I do not see any reason why I could not use these instead of pine for my secondary stringers.
I am thinking that instead of making a permanent floor on both sides of the engine compartment that I will make 2 long fiberglass tanks that I can drop in the boat. I could then fill the tanks with water for a little wakebarding weight. What I like about my idea is the ability to add weight and remove the entire floor easily without a problem. What I dont like is . . . I dont know if I can make the secondary stringers strong enough to hold these tanks. |
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SkiBum
Gold Member Joined: November-17-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 587 |
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Based on my experiences I would simply recommend building your secondaries from pine. Laminate the individual pieces (11 total) that make up the entire stringer using epoxy resin and glass on both sides. Once bedded into the floor and glassed onto the hull they are very water proof. Just be sure to use a good bead of 404 or 403 filler as well. There may be some composites out there that will NEVER fail but whatever.
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Jon4, I caught the same picture that Bill (skibum) did. Hate to say it but I think you need to keep digging. When did you buy the boat?
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jon4pres
Senior Member Joined: September-19-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 275 |
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I have done alot of reading. All of Skibum's thread. Which is great. I definetly got some ideas from that.
Thanks everyone. I will try not to repeat Skibum's thread but I know I will have questions so please don't get upset if I keep asking questions. |
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The Lake
Platinum Member Joined: May-13-2005 Location: Lk Winnebago MO Status: Offline Points: 1157 |
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Jon,
Sorry to hear of your difficulties; that has to be dissapointing. Keep us posted as you get further into it. Hopefully the weather holds for you. Chuck |
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scott8370
Gold Member Joined: November-30-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 872 |
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Eric, You want another floor job?
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Scott
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eric lavine
Grand Poobah Joined: August-13-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 13413 |
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read up on the subject to get a better understanding of some of the materials being used.... and keep on digging
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"the things you own will start to own you"
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79nautique
Grand Poobah Joined: January-27-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 7872 |
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really there's no need to rehash something that has been covered pretty good on two other posts so really do we need a third started? Not saying your not as important or anything like that. It's just been covered in detail on an active thread already that's all.
There is some compsite stuff out there it's just a little pricey and heavier than other options. You might check the other threads then if something is a litttle foggy or something wasn't covered then ask and you shall recieve. |
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jon4pres
Senior Member Joined: September-19-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 275 |
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Dug more and it was soaked. The secondary stringers were mush. I went ahead and tore the floor and foam out from the front of the engine back. I will post some pictures tomorrow. It is too dark and depressing out there right now. I have a feeling this could be a busy thread over the next couple of weeks. The good news is my brother is a school teacher and is off next week for spring break so I should have lots of help if the weather is good to us.
Is there a composite material that would be better to use than plywood? What about the secondary stringers?? |
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Bob's2001
Senior Member Joined: March-28-2005 Location: Lake Jackson TX Status: Offline Points: 241 |
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Jon, listen to the SkiBum and read his post floor and stringers. It will tell you a lot and may make you want to cry, too. I found a very similar situation in my 83 when I pulled up the carpet to check out a soft spot.
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Bob Ed
83 2001 |
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eric lavine
Grand Poobah Joined: August-13-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 13413 |
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the foam is always dry near the surface, chances are down closer to the hull it might be wet. Cracks are one of the reasons i prefer wood over glassing on top of the foam.
it does seem pretty thin at that area where the crack is and you may like 79 said glass over it. I think some further investigation is needed and maybe post some more pics. Its hard to believe the stringers and floors were replaced in 99, I think a little exageration was included or maybe just a bad spot was repaired. Is that carpet that wore out? or am i seeing something different Eric |
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"the things you own will start to own you"
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