No Super Sucker needed

possibly a forged crank??? by the thickness of the stamp lines

take that head right down to the grinder

81nautique wrote:    And am I just seeing 2 main caps? Nothing between the #2 & 3 cylinder? Interesting thread, keep the pictures coming.

Alan, I went back into my Photoshop and lightened up the pictures for a better view so now you can see only two mains.

I'll be taking some preliminary cylinder/piston diameter chaeck to see where I'm at. I do have specs for my 4 cylinder in the Atom and will be using them for now. I emailed marineengine.com about a manual and will see if they can help out. The one they list on their site is for the 3rd generation Flexifour and this one is 2nd generation. If they can't help, the specs for the Atoms engine should be damn close.

No matter what I find with the cylinder bores, I will be needing rings. I already broke one of the oil control rings trying to pry it out! I haven't gone searching yet and was wondering if anyone has a source of generic rings sized by width, depth and diameter? All my previous rebuilds were easy finding engine specific sets!

Also, no marks on the cam or crank gear for valve timing! Actually the crank gear face is hidden by the planatary housing so you can't see it anyway!! Any ideas on getting the thing back together with the proper valve timing??

Alan,
Thanks but I found one off ebay and ordered it. $12.00! We're not talking lot's of pounds on these springs. I can almost squeeze them by hand so I'm sure this cheap "C" clamp style will work. I went cheap because I've already spent more on tools than the $200 I paid for the engine!!! First there was the engine hoist to get the engine out of the back of the Suburban. Then I couldn't find my 3 arm gear puller to get the trans output coupling off (I must have wrecked my old one years ago probably over stressing it and tossed it). Then the high end Napa tweezer style compressor I thought would work. And last was the new cylinder hone. I remember honing my Atom engine but couldn't find it ether!! Next on the list will be the piston ring compressor. Can't find it ether!!

Gary S wrote: How about next on the list, TOOL BOX I have an engine stand your welcome to use if you want. Hold off on the Chicago beers til I get back!

I checked all my tool boxes!! Now I'm thinking I must have loaned the tools out to someone and then they.....

Thanks for the offer on the engine stand but at this point I feel the need is premature. Now that the engine is broken down, I can easily roll the block around and over on the work bench. The time I'll really need it is when it's all being bolted back together but that's really up in the air at this time. First, I'd really like to find out where the water came from. Then there is the potential machine work. Cylinder bore and sleeve? Valve grind? If the crank needs work and the shop can't machine new bearings, then I've decided I don't want to pour new babbit myself. It would need to go to a specialist.

Speaking of cylinders and bores, last evening I did some measuring trying to figure out if this thing had ever been bored. Bores (after the 1 minute hone) measure out to be .005 to .007 over the nominal so figuring .003 piston to bore clearance plus wear, I figure this engine has never been bored. (no sleeves ether) Now, since the shop has done all my previous rebores, I'm not familiar with the figures and have always just honed to get the proper pull with the old fish scale so I have a question. Is the bore always the nominal size or is it the piston?? IE: Where is the cylinder to piston clearance? is the piston undersize or the bore oversize?

do you have a pic of the plates? those are probably opened up too, but probably re-useable

eric lavine wrote: do you have a pic of the plates? those are probably opened up too, but probably re-useable

Eric,
Forgot to bring home my vernier calipers so I don't have any measurements plus the shaft is back at work but here's the picture. You really can't see much. I'll have more of a idea when I get to work tomorrow. I want to put both the spline shaft and the clutch plates on the optical comparitor. Yes, we still have one of those things that looks like a voting booth!! One thing that is confusing is the driving face of the spline on the plates is angular but the same on the splined shaft is 90 degrees! Do you think that the plates were made that way or worn?



Stopped at Napa on my way home and spent more $$$!! One of the items was the plastigage I needed. I now have a lifetime supply! 12 lengths and $20.00 for little precision pieces of plastic!!

Do you know I got the last box and they would have had to order it in from the warehouse if they didn't have it! I'm told no one asks for it anymore. Doesn't anyone check journal clearances when doing a engine?? What are they doing? Just let the machine shop handle it?

I found that piston rings are available by size and type rather than by a set. Looks like I'll be ok there. Napa or on line.

I also picked up the course set of stones for the cylinder hone. I want to see how far I need go to get most of the pitting out of that 1 cylinder that looks like it had water sitting in it.

Pete,Ball hones can be used in place of what you have,for reasons Lewey has said.
Also check here Egge Machine Company they do babbitting and I believe they make pistons,anyway some good reading.

Ive even put those plates on a blanche grinder and skimmed a couple of thousandths off them, I believe TMI still has those plates 800-462-8848 or glpp 440-951-5111, i also flip them and remember square corners. but i think if you repair the hub and thats it, you'll get another 25 years from them....rebuilding is a loose term, clean and paint

Eric,
Thanks for the phone numbers. I've written them down just in case.

My plan is to recondition the shaft splines and then see how the plates fit. I don't feel blanchard grinding is needed. I cleaned up the stack last evening and held them up to the light. Couldn't see any warpage in the plates. I'll also lay them down on the granite to check as well.

How far back in years does Paragon go? I know even though marine engine manufacturers would call their trans's their own, many did use the purchased paragon internals. But, who copied who??

I haven't welded up the grooves worn into the splines on the output shaft yet. Talking with the guys in the tool room, the subject of using hard face rod for the filler came up. They felt that the hard rod may flake off from any shock loading of the clutch plates. For our own info, we Rockwelled the original spline and it's soft! 35 on the C scale! So, the plan now is to weld up the grooves with stainless rod and then regrind the splines.

I have been making some progress but with small things that really don't show much has been done. I spent lots of time this weekend with a good rough cleaning of most of the parts. Having the block and some other parts like the head, manifold, etc. boiled out is still a option. However, besides the cost of a couple hundred, I want to avoid the boil out because I don't really want to deal with the cam bearings. They need to be removed for boiling.

It's always amazing how much dirt and grime a old engine will accumulate. I wish I had a parts washer!!

Here's the cast pan which had about a inch of sludge in it. It was real fun to get under the splash lube pan which is part of the main pan. It's the concave raised section with the four grooves in it for the connecting rod caps. As the cap is rotated through standing oil in the groove, the oil is forced into the rod journal. Then, on the top of each rod are two holes that spray oil up into the cylinder, inside of the piston and the wrist pin.


On the right is the trans output shaft that's ready with the rebuild of the splines. The welding and regrind went smooth. Interestingly, when it was set up for grinding, one of the original splines was off .015"!! Guess someone wasn't watching the milling operation! On the left is the oil pump. It's not a rotary gear that you find now but rather a piston pump that runs off a eccentric on the cam. I've got some Kroil in it to see if I free it up.




I lapped the valves just to get a good indication of their condition. Regrettably, at least the intakes will need to be ground. Valves aren't that bad but all the intake seats are pitted. This thing defiantly when under sucking water through the carb. I've got a friend with a valve and seat grinder that has offered to lend it to me. I hope I can remember how to use it - been 30 years since I've ground a valve or seat!!!! This picture also is a good shot showing the #3 cylinder with the pitting and ridge left from when it had water sitting in it.


Close up of intake seat - foreground:


It's always funny how such a small engine can spread out and take up so much space!

Gary, Or anyone?
You mentioned a Flex-hone (ball hone). I'm going to order one and was wondering about the grit size. 240? 320?

Also, since you have the old tractors, you don't by chance have a 7/8-18 tap? I need to chase the threads in the head for the spark plugs!

eric lavine wrote: i might Pete, I'll check today

Eric (and Gary),
No need to look for the tap. I made a "tap"! When I got the engine, someone had at one time made a lifting ring out of a old plug by removing the porcelain and welding a ring on it. It came with the engine so I chucked it up in the lathe and turned the shoulder on the body back a 1/2". This allowed the "tap" to enter the head all the way through to the other side. Then I got my Dremel out and put the cut off wheel in it. I ground "teeth" at right angles to the threads by cutting grooves across the threads. Worked great along with some Tap Magic. I did have to "resharpen it once - the cast iron is harder that the steel spark plug!!

Harbor Freight has a 20 gallon parts washer for around $180 bucks and a little 5 gallon for $45.

I am loving this history lesson Pete!