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"Blown" Ford 351

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William777 View Drop Down
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    Posted: October-23-2017 at 7:59am
Hello, I just bought a 1978 Martinique and the P.O. said the engine was blown. She said it started smoking and water was pouring into the boat just after launching. She was able to go back to shore under power. Then the boat sat till now, about six months. There is water in the oil. Tomorrow I'm going to attempt a compression test. I tried to turn the engine over with the coil disconnected during the purchase but only got a click from the starter solenoid. The engine is not seized. Any input is appreciated at this point. Paid $500 Thanks, William
1978 Martinique Ford 351 Windsor
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Duane in Indy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-23-2017 at 9:26am
You could take it to the lake if it is close and back it in still attached to the trailer and start it and duplicate the problem. Water pouring out is not a good thing
If it were me, I would pull the valve covers and loosen all the rocker nuts all the way. Then I would perform a "leak down test" with the pistons at BDC. At BDC you are inspecting the entire bore and usually hear where the problem is. That will tell you far more than a compression test. Leak down gages are readily available. on line but require an air compressor.. Listen for the leakage and that should help pinpoint the problem. Good luck
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chau8238 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-23-2017 at 11:24am
I would try to get the motor to turn over by hand with a ratchet on the crank. With water being in the oil and sitting for that long, you're likely going to need a rebuild.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote William777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-23-2017 at 2:14pm
Thank you, I'm prepared to get dirty. I'll look and see what air compressor options are out there, those are handy to have around anyway. Aiming for a May relaunch of the beauty.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scootdogydog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-23-2017 at 2:23pm
I bet there are some good blocks that people have around....I have one, but your location would help...that is of course if yours is bad and you'd rather not get it rebuilt. Good luck
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-23-2017 at 3:26pm
Start simple, pull the plugs and see what you can learn.   
Side by side plugs that look different from all the other cylinders would indicate the head gasket is blown between those two cylinders.
Sounds like you stole this boat. Good luck with your repairs.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote William777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-23-2017 at 7:31pm
I pulled all the plugs and they all look very good. I removed the valve covers and its beautifully clean. The dipstick has the milky look. Wouldn't there be milky residue on the plugs and under the valve covers due to water in the oil? I'm still sourcing an air compressor for a leak down test. Tried to kick it over without the coil and found the starter is junk. And yes if this engine ever runs again, I stole the boat. Found one freeze plug missing too.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-23-2017 at 8:28pm
sounds to me like she launched it in the spring and the freeze plug being popped out was what put large amounts of water in the bilge. The smoking was probably steamy hot water from the freeze plug hole.

You have water in the oil which combined with the freeze plug issue would make me think the engine wasn't winterized right and it froze.

You could have an internal crack letting water into the oil to go along with your obvious external leak.

Doesn't sound good but I'd put in a new freeze plug, put in a new starter or rebuild the old one. Don't forget if you're getting a new one you have a reverse rotation engine and you need a reverse rotation marine starter Make sure you can turn it over by hand with the plugs out before using the starter.

Then change the oil and start it and run it some and see if you have water in the oil Large amounts of water would say there's an internal crack. A very small amount could be residual water that didn't all come out with the oil change.

If you drain the oil cold, some of the water would settle to the bottom and come out first to give you an idea of how much water is in the oil It might take a few oil changes to get rid of everything. If you can't get rid of it, you probably have an internal crack

It sounds like she didn't run it very long at all so there's probably no milky residue because of the short run time. The plugs could all look good like you said because the water isn't in the cylinders but in the sump.

I'd get it running before doing a leakdown test, because all the cylinders could test just fine in spite of having a cracked block letting water into the oil.

Maybe you'll be lucky..........maybe not
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-23-2017 at 9:11pm
Great advice Keno, lets hope it lives as is to run again.
If your starter is junk take it to a local rebuilder and let them rebuild your starter.
If you buy a reverse rotation starter it will be big bucks but normally they can rebuild yours for about the same price as a standard rotation rebuild.
Sometimes a rap on the starter case with a hammer gets a marine starter working again.
Rust is hard on electric motors.
Mark
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote William777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-24-2017 at 12:29am
Good advice all around. I'll get it started before doing all the testing. I'm trying not to get too excited about it being something simple.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-24-2017 at 12:59am
Ken, what's other name that those freeze plugs are called
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jbear Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-24-2017 at 2:05am
man I love it when KENO comments. So simple that even I can almost understand...



john


oh yeah...forgot. We need pics. Sounds like you stole it to me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-24-2017 at 2:48am
Originally posted by William777 William777 wrote:

Good advice all around. I'll get it started before doing all the testing. I'm trying not to get too excited about it being something simple.


Let's keep your fingers crossed though and maybe you'll get lucky

We can let Pete tell us all about those plugs Gary or maybe Quinner will add something

Link to Pete's multi purpose plugs

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-24-2017 at 3:07am
I think on the Floor at GM or Ford those plugs are called casting plugs but once the engine leaves the factory they somehow become Freeze Plugs in the aftermarket! Must be a metamorphose of some kind. Don't worry William, this is an old inside joke, you will see as time goes by.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-24-2017 at 7:18am
Originally posted by MrMcD MrMcD wrote:

I think on the Floor at GM or Ford those plugs are called casting plugs but once the engine leaves the factory they somehow become Freeze Plugs in the aftermarket! Must be a metamorphose of some kind. Don't worry William, this is an old inside joke, you will see as time goes by.

I think it was Ken's great great grandfather that was a back yard hack, didn't drain an engine, it froze pushing the core plugs out so he changed the name to freeze plugs.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-24-2017 at 8:41am
Originally posted by 8122pbrainard 8122pbrainard wrote:

Originally posted by MrMcD MrMcD wrote:

I think on the Floor at GM or Ford those plugs are called casting plugs but once the engine leaves the factory they somehow become Freeze Plugs in the aftermarket! Must be a metamorphose of some kind. Don't worry William, this is an old inside joke, you will see as time goes by.

I think it was Ken's great great grandfather that was a back yard hack, didn't drain an engine, it froze pushing the core plugs out so he changed the name to freeze plugs.


I always wondered where my back yard hack tendencies came from .

Now I know, thanks Pete
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dreaming Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-24-2017 at 2:17pm
Before you get too far down the road, I would think that a cracked exhaust manifold is highly likely in this scenario as well.   They need to be inspected for leaks and could be pulled as a first step.   They can be a pain to get off, but they will need to come off anyway if the rest of the work that Keno is speaking about needs to happen.     If the EM is cracked, you would have the same symptoms as you are describing, and it is possible that the block is still good, even if a freeze plug is pushed out.     this scenario is very similar to the condition of my boat when i purchased it,    the block was fine, the intake and the EM's were cracked. Sitting with water in the back two cylinders did the engine in, but the block itself was not damaged.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-24-2017 at 7:00pm
No need to take the exhaust manifolds off to do what I mentioned.

It could be an exhaust manifold leak but if you get it running you'll be able to narrow down where the water is coming from.

An exhaust leak puts water in the cylinder(s) and it then has to leak by the rings to get into the oil. If you run it some and pull the plugs and crank it over you'll know if there is water in one or more cylinders when it comes shooting out.

An intake manifold leak just dumps the water straight to the oil in the lifter gallery area and doesn't put any in the cylinders.

A cracked water jacket usually puts oil straight to the sump also.without getting into the cylinders. Usually......not always depending on crack location.

I'd run it , narrow things down to what leaks and what doesn't and then go from there.

You mentioned the spark plugs looking good, that's why I wouldn't dive into the exhaust manifolds just yet.

And before doing anything you want to make sure it turns over with a wrench on the harmonic balancer bolt.

And drain the oil to get an idea if there's a lot of water or a little water in the sump.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-24-2017 at 7:02pm
Originally posted by KENO KENO wrote:

Originally posted by 8122pbrainard 8122pbrainard wrote:

Originally posted by MrMcD MrMcD wrote:

I think on the Floor at GM or Ford those plugs are called casting plugs but once the engine leaves the factory they somehow become Freeze Plugs in the aftermarket! Must be a metamorphose of some kind. Don't worry William, this is an old inside joke, you will see as time goes by.

I think it was Ken's great great grandfather that was a back yard hack, didn't drain an engine, it froze pushing the core plugs out so he changed the name to freeze plugs.


I always wondered where my back yard hack tendencies came from .

Now I know, thanks Pete


By the way Pete, I did one of those family tree searches and great, great grandpa was named of all things................Pete
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-24-2017 at 9:26pm
You should try turning the engine with the starter now that the plugs are removed.
It may have been hydro locked keeping it from turning.
Fluid does not compress so a piston pushing on water will lock the engine.
Pull the plugs, hit the starter and water may shoot 15 feet out of the spark plug hole.
It's possible the starter is actually good.
!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote William777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-24-2017 at 10:35pm
Thanks everyone. I turned the engine with the nut on the balancer and it turnes smoothly. I removed the starter and tried it on a battery and nothing. The gear in the starter turns manually so it's not locked up. Think its toast. Found a source online asking 198.00 for a new one. Changed the oil, It was like heavy cream coming out. Should I see about a rebuild kit for the starter of just bite the 200 dollar bullet? I do want to follow advice and get it started before doing anything else. Thanks. Oh I replaced the casting plug.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scootdogydog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-24-2017 at 10:45pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote William777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-24-2017 at 11:03pm
Thanks for the EBAY tip. Done. Say it will be here by Wednesday. I can't work on it till Sunday so more from me then. Thanks very much. I'm living to hear that engine run..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-24-2017 at 11:39pm
William,
Before you order the starter, take a few minutes and open up the old one. Clean up the commutator and brushes, oil up the bushings and try it again.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote William777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-25-2017 at 12:05am
I've already ordered it. I bought a motorcycle in Three Lakes once. Drove there from Memphis. BMW 100RT . Nice place.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SNobsessed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-25-2017 at 12:07am
Pete, for me it would take a few hours.     Everything I go to do takes 4 times longer than I expected!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote William777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-25-2017 at 12:45pm
Well, I have a totally free day today and so I'm going to try and clean up the old starter as Pete suggest, even though I already ordered the new one.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote William777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-25-2017 at 7:40pm
Well blow me down, I cleaned the starter and it works now. I got it back and started the engine! Used the fake lake method. It ran for a minute but kept cutting out, bad fuel probably. Anyway it showed me where the water is coming from. It's from the front side behind the alternator. There's a cracked gasket showing there too. I took two picks but not sure how/if I can post them here.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote William777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-25-2017 at 8:00pm
http://s1052.photobucket.com/user/williamcary12/media/20171025_143052_1508967300319_1.jpg.html?sort=3&o=1                     http://s1052.photobucket.com/user/williamcary12/media/20171025_143137_1508967299851.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-25-2017 at 8:01pm
Sounds like progress

Good job on the starter, Pete must be just beaming right now

Are you trying to post pictures from a phone or maybe a laptop/PC?

Realizing that a minute isn't much run time, how does your oil look after you ran it ?

If there's a big internal leak a lot of water can get in in a minute or so on the hose.

I'd hook a temporary tank to the fuel pump and maybe clean the carburetor too, to make further running and testing easier
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