Bolt on EFI systems |
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Jonny Quest
Grand Poobah Joined: August-20-2013 Location: Utah--via Texas Status: Offline Points: 2863 |
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Posted: March-20-2015 at 12:55am |
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Current
2003 Ski Nautique 206 Limited Previous 2001 Ski Nautique Open Bow 1994 Ski Nautique Open Bow Aqua skiing, ergo sum |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Proper link |
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Jonny Quest
Grand Poobah Joined: August-20-2013 Location: Utah--via Texas Status: Offline Points: 2863 |
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Affordable Fuel Injection has this system:
http://www.affordable-fuel-injection.com/ixxocart/products/Ford_Marine_MPFI_System-27-42.html It looks like about $2,200 for everything. I looked at this before retro-fitting my 1994 SNOB from ProTech back to carburetor. I couldn't justify the cost for the bolt-on system. JQ |
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Current
2003 Ski Nautique 206 Limited Previous 2001 Ski Nautique Open Bow 1994 Ski Nautique Open Bow Aqua skiing, ergo sum |
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TX Foilhead
Grand Poobah Joined: February-01-2009 Location: Kingsland TX Status: Offline Points: 2076 |
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Nope, the ProTec uses a wheel on the dizzy shaft that has an optical sensor if I remember right. The ProTec dizzy could be adapted and used as a cam sensor, there's too much variation with the timing chain to use it as a reliable crank sensor.
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mamigacz
Groupie Joined: June-08-2014 Location: Wisconsin Status: Offline Points: 96 |
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Thanks for the compliments on the restoration!
I was checking ebay over for a project when I saw this wreck for sale in Illinois. I had an 87 closed bow centurion that was getting too cramped when my kids and friends wanted to go skiing. For $1000, with an open bow, more storage space and a wider beam, the project seemed worth it. The neighbors thought I was on crack when I brought it home.
The 80’s centurions had wooden stringers wrapped in 3/16” thick fiberglass.
V8, Chevy, marine, TBI’s existed on Volvo Penta applications (Distributors are about $100 used on ebay). That unit could be graphed with the Ford base. However, even the Auto TBI distributors are sealed units without vents. The only difference between the marine and auto is the cap and rotor have copper contacts instead of aluminum. I’ve heard that the EDIS ignitions are very reliable. Do the Protec ignitions use the same trigger wheel (Like an EDIS) on the crankshaft pulley for a position signal? |
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TX Foilhead
Grand Poobah Joined: February-01-2009 Location: Kingsland TX Status: Offline Points: 2076 |
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EDIS would be easier than grafting a Chevy dizzy onto a Ford and of course keeping it somewhat marine.
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lewy2001
Grand Poobah Joined: March-19-2008 Location: NSW Australia Status: Offline Points: 2234 |
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Mark nice tasteful work on the boat. They look to be a very functional boat with the open bow and rear ski locker especially for a 86. Correct craft did not have that sort of functionality till the Gen1 Sport in 89-90. Even though we are CC people we appreciate most old boats and restorations that are done without moving to far away from originality. Do the Centurion's of that era have wooden stringers?
I was just thinking there may have been a year or so latter model of the GM TBI that used wasted spark. The Fords after about 95 had wasted spark setups but were port injection. The PCM GT40 uses the Ford TFI ignition with dizzy. |
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If you're going through hell, keep going
89 Ski <a href="http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=5685" ta |
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MrMcD
Grand Poobah Joined: January-28-2014 Location: Folsom, CA Status: Offline Points: 3604 |
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Nice work on your boat rebuild. ( Even though it is not a CC )
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mamigacz
Groupie Joined: June-08-2014 Location: Wisconsin Status: Offline Points: 96 |
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Yes, I was able to use the complete wiring loom with modifications on wire length. Modifications included: -All wires from the ECM to engine had to lengthened with the ECM, relays, check engine light and diagnostic plug mounted under the dash. -The wires going from fuel pump relay to the fuel pump had to be lengthened. Fuel pump is mounted next to the gas tank. -Wires going to the diagnostic plug were shortened because they were now closer to the ECM. Diagnostic plug is mounted under the dash. -Wires from the ECM to fuel pump relay were shortened because they were now closer to the ECM -I upgraded my O2 sensor to heated sensor. There are two options for the distributor. You can buy a Ford Duraspark distributor from a late 80’s F150 and modifiy it. The vacuum advance has to be removed and the pick-up coil has to be locked down so it can’t rotate. Likewise, the mechanical advance needs to be locked down to disable the centrifugal advance. On a GM TBI distributor, the ignition module is mounted in the distributor (good spot for it). You still have to use the GM ignition module, but it will need to be mounted remotely from the Duraspark distributor. Mine is about 5 inches away. There are three wires that connect from the GM ignition module that will need to go the Duraspark pick-up coil. There are diagrams on the web that show how the wires connect. The easier option (what I would do if I did this again) is to do this: Ford /TBI distributor The finished distributor is ready to go. The GM ignition module is mounted in the distributor. There is no need to lock any of the advances down, because they are already locked down. The GM TBI ignition is not a wasted spark ignition. Here are some before and after pictures of my boat. Sorry, it’s not a correct craft! |
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lewy2001
Grand Poobah Joined: March-19-2008 Location: NSW Australia Status: Offline Points: 2234 |
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Mark so you were able to use the complete wiring loom that came with the ECM and TB from the donor car? (After removing unwanted wires). What did you need to change to make the distributor work with the ECM. The original Protecs had wasted spark ignition. I wonder if a latter model of the GM TBI had this setup if so you could just take the complete ignition setup.
Just some more general pics of boat |
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If you're going through hell, keep going
89 Ski <a href="http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=5685" ta |
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mamigacz
Groupie Joined: June-08-2014 Location: Wisconsin Status: Offline Points: 96 |
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No leak. However, water does find its way into the bilge from wet skiers or a huge wave over the bow.
Sorry, I have my ECM mounted under the dash. I had a lot of pictures from the project, but I couldn’t find most of them (I think my wife deleted them). Below are two that I found. My boat is in a remote storage garage for the winter. I’ll be there this weekend and try to get some pics. Are there any specific area’s you’re interested in seeing? I added a hyperlink to the youtube video. Excuse the mess (especially beer cans in the boat ). TBI conversion on Elkhart lake |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Mark (mamigacz), Do you have a leak under the dog house? |
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lewy2001
Grand Poobah Joined: March-19-2008 Location: NSW Australia Status: Offline Points: 2234 |
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Pictures we love pictures. Someone with a failed Protec FI would have all the fuel lines making it a simpler task.
I moved my ECM also to up under the dash area like yours (console?) It required building a 10' wiring harness extension. I did this more to get away from the heat cycles the electronics would have to endure than the extra waterproofing that would be required. In automotive applications they generally move the ECM's into the cabin area away from the heat of engine bay. |
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If you're going through hell, keep going
89 Ski <a href="http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=5685" ta |
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mamigacz
Groupie Joined: June-08-2014 Location: Wisconsin Status: Offline Points: 96 |
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This conversion took a lot of time and thought. The part that intrigued me was that I could do the whole conversion with about $600 (yes, a junkyard helps). I have about 20 hours on this boat since the conversion. No problems or equipment failures to report. A time consuming part of this conversion was modifying the fuel system to integrate an electric fuel pump and add a return fuel line. One of the advantages of running a TBI is it only requires 15 PSI of fuel pressure. You can run rubber hose from the fuel cell to the fuel pump. Even after the fuel pump you can run fuel injection hose to the throttle body (I ran steel 3/8" fuel line, overkill). The return line is low pressure, so standard marine fuel line can be used (again, I used steel line, overkill). I ended up putting in a bulk head fitting in the gas tank for the return line. The ECM got mounted under the console. I'm sure someone could come up with something more creative to get it closer to the engine and keep it dry at the same time. Mounting the ECM far away from the engine required lengthening the wiring harness from the ECM to the engine. If I had to do this again, I would graph a GM TBI distributor top to a Ford distributor base. Easy, simple and no need to remotely mount the ignition module. Adding spark control is optional, but I chose to take advantage of it. There was a fair amount of work with dissecting the wiring harness to remove the unnecessary wires. Devices like the speed sensor (VSS), EGR, Transmission related sensors, air conditioning and knock sensor were removed. Also, shortening and lengthening of wires was needed to reach the distributor, O2 sensor and map sensor. Closed or open loop fueling is optional. Riser modifications for the O2 sensor are needed if you choose to go closed loop. There are kits available from Howell efi for doing this. The part I liked the best was tuning. I ended up buying an emulator that would allow me to make active adjustments while the engine was running. Tuning was straightforward and easy with the help of Tunerpro software, gearhead efi website and a wideband air fuel ratio gauge. |
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81nautique
Grand Poobah Joined: September-03-2005 Location: Big Rock, Il Status: Offline Points: 5772 |
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It was wire cut at my local machine shop Mark. Correct in that I never mounted it as I changed to log manifolds for that project but I'm sure glad to see it's finally bolted to something. |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Don, It is in the link I posted |
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TX Foilhead
Grand Poobah Joined: February-01-2009 Location: Kingsland TX Status: Offline Points: 2076 |
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There's another mount that I've seen, I believe it's in the thread Pete linked to that's basically a plumbing spud that goes in the elbow. I've got a link to it, but it's not on my phone. I've also seen some cast versions of what Mark has that are made for closed cooling that could be converted like Robert did with the elbow that he used.
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MrMcD
Grand Poobah Joined: January-28-2014 Location: Folsom, CA Status: Offline Points: 3604 |
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Interesting O2 sensor mounting.
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lewy2001
Grand Poobah Joined: March-19-2008 Location: NSW Australia Status: Offline Points: 2234 |
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Alan (81nautique) had it made up for his 81 when he was tuning some performance mods. He was using log manifolds at the time but had this block made up for the PCM manifolds not sure he ever bolted it on motor. It looks to be water cut Alan would have more information on its source and manufacture. I have made up a elbow that will allow me to get the sensor out of direct exhaust flow and provide some down angle for drainage. This may reduce the sensitivity of sensor but Robert (E40DNut) has a a similar setup on his Volvo risers that works. If I kill a sensor will move to this elbow setup.
Mark post up some more pics and details. Looks like it could be a cheap option for owners of boats with old Protec EFI systems that are failing. Nice looking boat and engine....we are a open minded lot here post up some more pictures |
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If you're going through hell, keep going
89 Ski <a href="http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=5685" ta |
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mamigacz
Groupie Joined: June-08-2014 Location: Wisconsin Status: Offline Points: 96 |
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I converted my 1987 ski centurion (351W) to TBI. This is a GM throttle body system off of a 1989 Chevy pickup. There is a lot of support on web for using GM TBI's in Ford applications. I am using this as a closed loop system. Also, because the GM system has spark control, I modified a Ford Duraspark distubutor to take advantage of electronic timing. If your interested in more information on the conversion, I would be happy to give you more details.
Check out the youtube video. TBI conversion on Elkhart lake |
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KRoundy
Platinum Member Joined: August-23-2010 Location: Lake Stevens Status: Offline Points: 1702 |
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Mark, glad to hear that you are having good luck with that setup. Did you create that aluminum piece yourself or have somebody create it for you?
I'm still in the curious stage. I have other things to fix (like my leaky transmission) before I start to fiddle with something like EFI. That's way down the list, but it sure seems possible. The curiosity for me would be the ease of going between various elevations. Good conversation here, as always. Kevin |
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Previous: 1993 Electric Blue/Charcoal Ski Nautique
Current: 2016 Ski Nautique 200 Open Bow |
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lewy2001
Grand Poobah Joined: March-19-2008 Location: NSW Australia Status: Offline Points: 2234 |
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This is the O2 setup on my GT40 with Megasquirt. It has survived 20hrs in this location so far without problems. Once I have the VE and ignition advance tables finalised I will remove the O2 sensor.
You only use the O2 for tuning purposes the ECM runs on open loop with set fuel and ignition tables like the original GT40 ECM. PCM did spend quite some time getting these tables correct.They say closed loop is only for lazy tuners |
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If you're going through hell, keep going
89 Ski <a href="http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=5685" ta |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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No, the O2 sensor goes on existing manifolds. Both the outside and inner walls of the manifold are machined to fit a threaded adapter that seals both cavities and accepts the sensor. I need to find the thread with all the pictures. |
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MrMcD
Grand Poobah Joined: January-28-2014 Location: Folsom, CA Status: Offline Points: 3604 |
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I am Corrected! That said the system could work well, boat or car but you still need to tune it for your application.
There are bolt on carburetor replacements that perform much better than a carburetor in cold start and are more efficient. I guess I need to update my knowledge bank on EFI in boats. Would he need EFI Exhaust manifolds to use the O2 sensors or can the old manifold be modified. New Exhaust adds a lot of expense. Thanks for the tune up. |
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Tim D
Grand Poobah Joined: August-23-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2635 |
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Before exhaust and cooling water for the exhaust meet or mix together. |
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Tim D
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Then you haven't been spending enough time on CCfan!! Search and read!! The O2 is before cooling water goes into the exhaust. |
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MrMcD
Grand Poobah Joined: January-28-2014 Location: Folsom, CA Status: Offline Points: 3604 |
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Keep in mind that in Automotive use the EFI reads the exhaust using O2 sensors on both exhaust pipes. In boats I am not aware of O2 sensors that could work with water spray in the exhaust. If the EFI can't read the exhaust it can't self tune and you are giving up many of the EFI advantages. Our 95 with the 351W with a factory looking EFI manifold uses a program developed by engineering to work well in our boats but that fuel map took someone a lot of time to create. It works really well but an aftermarket system would not have the same built in tune developed by the Marine engine builder. You would be on your own and tuning could be a nightmare and very expensive if you pay someone to do it. If you could run O2 sensors those systems can help tune themselves.
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lewy2001
Grand Poobah Joined: March-19-2008 Location: NSW Australia Status: Offline Points: 2234 |
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If I was going to all the trouble of converting a carby to injection I would opt for a port injection over throttle body and like Robert did, you could get most parts from a wrecker. The learning curve is steep but fun. If you already have the Protec Injection and Ignition setup a valid option could be keeping the throttle body and Megasquirting it with a Ford TFI and Distributor from the wreckers. |
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If you're going through hell, keep going
89 Ski <a href="http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=5685" ta |
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KRoundy
Platinum Member Joined: August-23-2010 Location: Lake Stevens Status: Offline Points: 1702 |
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And good grief, why do you think I would shop at AutoZone... ?
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Previous: 1993 Electric Blue/Charcoal Ski Nautique
Current: 2016 Ski Nautique 200 Open Bow |
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