Prop Repairs - 540 Final Results |
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Nautique2001
Grand Poobah Joined: June-14-2004 Location: Massachusetts Status: Offline Points: 2832 |
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Posted: February-19-2007 at 11:53am |
We stopped at a prop sales and repair booth. This place Accutechmarine looks like the place to send props too. Their technology to tune props is top-notch. Take a look at their website. I think Tim was pretty impressed as well. They're willing to work out a special prop repair rate with CCF.com. I need to get an understanding of how many people would be interested in shipping their damaged props to them. ACME isn't an issue for them. I'm shipping my props to them this week. It will be a two week turn around this time of year. Would anyone else be interested?
Ken |
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Nautique2001
Grand Poobah Joined: June-14-2004 Location: Massachusetts Status: Offline Points: 2832 |
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The International Organization for Standardization (ISO) is a worldwide federation of national standards bodies. This organization has produced 'ISO-484' that defines the standards of manufacturing tolerances for marine propellers. AccuTech technicians use this standard to inspect propellers and provides ISO compliance which gives you quality workmanship and peace of mind.
ISO-484 is catagorized as follows: S Very High Accuracy I High Accuracy II Medium Accuracy III Wide Tolerances Traditionally, cla$$es 'S' and 'I' were only used on special vessels due to the extreme accuracy and precision. However, Prop Scan has made these cla$$es available to all, providing economical resolution to everyone's propeller problems. A Cla$$ of its Own: Due to Prop Scan's high levels of accuracy and repeatability it is now possible to repair a propeller to an accuracy level that is twice the accuracy of Cla$$ S. This cla$$ification is known as Cla$$ O. ©2007 AccuTech Marine Propeller, Inc. All Rights Reserved. (877) 515-7767 |
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Nautique2001
Grand Poobah Joined: June-14-2004 Location: Massachusetts Status: Offline Points: 2832 |
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Interesting info:
“Pitch blocks are inaccurate,” says Kindberg. “We do not use them. We freehand everything, using the computer as a guideline. We only work the areas that need it, so we don’t put stress on the whole prop. The potential damage is lessened and the accuracy we can achieve gives us much higher tolerances. We work to ISO (International Organization for Standardization) tolerances. There is a standard for the repair of boat props. Our equipment measures down to 1/1000 of an inch. We match prop blades to within 50/1000 of an inch of each other.” |
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79nautique
Grand Poobah Joined: January-27-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 7872 |
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.050" is actually a pretty wide tolerance look at it this way
.0625" is 1/16". From a constuction stand point that's pretty a close tolerance, but from a machining standpoint that's loose as a goose. |
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21132 |
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The way I read it, .050" would be the full spec width, so the tolerance is really +/-.025". Not sure which spec level that quote was referring to, as Accutech is able to adhere to several ISO standards (depending on how much you want to pay).
In hearing them speak, their methods are very impressive. They actually take multiple sweeps (6 I think) of the working portion of each blade and measure the accuracy of the pitch. Here's a pic that is similar to the prop they had marked up at the boat show (excuse my poor drawing): Each sweep contains >180 data points that are checked to verify pitch accuracy. This allows them to see variances within a blade, as well as compare each blade to the others. I do not believe that any manufacturers are verifying all their props to this degree. He explained that its not uncommon to see variations on new props- even CNC ones like Acme. Like Ken said, they still do the repairs by hand with a hammer- but they do not use pitch blocks. After each successive round of tuning, the prop is re-evaluated by their machine. A tuned prop will see improvements in fuel economy as well as performance. They do baseline measurements for free, and full documentation of all the tuning is provided to the customer (and kept on record)with their repair and tuning services. We spoke to several prop tuning shops at the show, and Accutech impressed me with their methodology and knowledge. I certainly wouldnt hesitate to send my damaged prop to them, and would also like for them to at least baseline the rest. If we were to receive a discount through this site, the cost would only be marginally more than a standard prop repair service. I think he said the normal charge for an ISO Cla$$ I tune/repair on a 13" diameter prop is ~$170. Edit: there is a good interactive example of the scan data on their website: Accutech |
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79nautique
Grand Poobah Joined: January-27-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 7872 |
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you can do the same thing with any CMM machine by measuring the surface profile of each blade and comparing them to each other. Just because they throw out big words like ISO doesn't mean sh*t, ISO standards are old as dirt and is the standards used in Europe for over 40 yrs. It's easy to be impressed if your un-informed about standards, What is DIN, ASME, ASTM?
again if you think +/- .025" is close it's not, bearing clearance on a crank are around .002"-.005"..., your coupling spec is .003" max. But a range of almost an 1/8" is crap. within .050" means +/-.050" not +/-.025" so you have a window of .100" I think I paid about 50-75 bucks at Delaware prop to have mine repitched to a 13 x 14 |
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21132 |
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I see your point, but bearing clearance and prop tuning is an apples to oranges comparison. We're not talking manufacturing tolerances, as they are still using hammers to bend the blades. ISO may not be a brand new standard, but at least its a good measuring stick.
They use a more systematic approach than other prop tuners, and can even improve on brand new props. If we can get a discount, their services wont cost much more than the other shops who use pitch blocks and eyeball it. Think they can do better than .050"? |
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M3Fan
Grand Poobah Joined: October-22-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3185 |
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Repairing and adding cup to my ACME 3 blade by ACME was 125.00 including return shipping.
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21132 |
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The Accutech guy mentioned a 20% site discount for us, so that would put us in the same ballpark.
Bill Weeks told me that Acme repairs their props just like (pretty much) everyone else- using pitch blocks. |
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79nautique
Grand Poobah Joined: January-27-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 7872 |
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Old Timmy's a bargain hunter just hasn't found any, only high priced stuff with a big margin to lower the price and still make a pretty good penny.
ISO isn't any better than any other measuring stick, ANSE, ASME ASTM or any foreign DIN, ISO or Jap standard just someone else writing it and selling books. Again It's easy to impress the un-informed but reallt hard to bullsh*t someone that all ready knows and use the different standards, they're all basicly the same. as far as pitch blocks to hammers goes, guess I would rather have the load spread over a larger area producing less stress than a smaller area concentration producing higher stress'. Again un-informed on what's good and what's not. |
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boat dr
Grand Poobah Joined: June-27-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4245 |
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TRBenj, you are wasting your time,he knows all and tells all,too bad he can't spell. He was sick on that day.Short words ,most with 4 letters.
Call me about the Hi Tek deal,Allen will only do,polished or paint......boat dr |
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79nautique
Grand Poobah Joined: January-27-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 7872 |
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spending $1400.00 to get maybe 10 hp is worth it? Bunch of dump a$$' if you ask me. then again you do like cheap stamp roller rockers too. What a waiste Doc but your always good at being the punch line of a joke.
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21132 |
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If they can make documented improvements in pitch accuracy on a prop, is the standard they choose to cite really important? Accutech claimed that Acme is not ISO I compliant- does that change things?
The reason we chose to share this info with everyone is to hear different perspectives. Their presentation impressed me, and I can usually see right through a salesman's BS. The guy we spoke to was very knowledgable when it comes to repairing props- the guys at the other prop repair booths were clowns. Then again, Im not an expert mechanical guy- so if there are discrepancies in their sales pitch, Im hoping someone here will point them out. Check out their website and see what they are all about. I havent sent my prop to them... yet. As far as pitch blocks go, dont they require the use of hammers as well? Seems a computer measured model would give a better indication of where a bent prop should be struck than a tech trying to eyeball it. |
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79nautique
Grand Poobah Joined: January-27-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 7872 |
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I would think that the tech is measuring before they hit it and the machine isn't going to locate the tech's hammer before he strikes so your back to the skill of the tech, now if the CMM is measuring the surface profile then you have a machine going back and doing the hammering then it's going to be better, but just because you have readout doesn't mean sh*t. Again back to informed vs. uninformed and a 1/16" isn't close enough for machined parts, cast that's pretty good but then you usually machine the casting in critical areas though.
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79nautique
Grand Poobah Joined: January-27-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 7872 |
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Q: If I damage my Acme Propeller, how easy will it be to have it repaired?
A: No problem. In the same way that technological advances in the automotive industry have brought about changes in service for automobiles, Acme Propellers are somewhat new to the propeller repair industry. Even though Acme Propellers have a unique look, there is really no difference in the way they are repaired. As can be expected, it is not possible to return an Acme Propeller to perfectly new condition, because this would require maintaining tolerances of plus or minus the thickness of a human hair. However, in most cases, it is easier to repair an Acme Propeller, because of the accuracy and consistency built into the propellers and pitch blocks from the start. Propeller blade thicknesses, for example, are consistent and virtually identical to one another. ACME propeller clip from FAQ section. A human hair is about .003"-.005" and you want someone that is going to get it within .050" or over ten times worse than it came from the factory, Not me. |
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M3Fan
Grand Poobah Joined: October-22-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3185 |
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I only sent mine to ACME because I wanted that warm-fuzzy of having the OEM re-do the prop. The address I sent it to is not ACME's address so it's probably done 3rd party anyway. I'd say with the discount, these prop scan guys are definatley worth a try. At 170.00, however, I'd be leaning towards a new prop. I'm all for making these guys the exclusive prop-stop for CCFans if they agree to that discount for sure.
Balancing is also a big concern with ski boat props, especially 3 bladers, just for the sake of discussion. |
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79nautique
Grand Poobah Joined: January-27-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 7872 |
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balance is a key for sure, on the FAQ page they list two sources for the pitch block for the ACME props. Personally don't really see an advantage to hand hammering vs pitch block hammer. I would rather them be put in a forging type press to distrubute the load over a wider area.
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Nautique2001
Grand Poobah Joined: June-14-2004 Location: Massachusetts Status: Offline Points: 2832 |
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I'm not familiar with fancy terms myself. We we're looking at it from a ISO stand point, we actually got into the computer read-outs of before and after repairs. This place actually computer reads all the new props they sell out of a box. It shows if any part of the blades pitch is off to the smallest cuchi hair. They make the proper adjustments and print a before and after computer read-out to show the customer the results. IMO, if a prop repair company can show you the actual results of the repair on paper, that's great. There's a little more science in their repairs, versus other companies. $170 to feel good with a finely tuned prop isn't bad. $136 if we get a group order discount. I'll give them a try and let you guys know.
Ken |
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boat dr
Grand Poobah Joined: June-27-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4245 |
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79, once again if you only knew what the other members were saying about you and the rants you go or the sad advice you give,oh well...
As far a exhaust goes,i think you are the owner of those "quality Alm. aftermarket things" stamped rockers allow me to buy those Hi Teks,30 hp increase and substantial weight loss. No body cares what your thoughts on this propeller issue are,but then again your advice is cheap,and you get what you pay for. how much did you pay for the cheap Alm. things you keep bragging about. did you design the AccuTech or do some of the prototypes,with as much info as you have on the process I know you were involved,NOT Humm a little harder it feels good as long as i keep my eyes closed.........boat dr your spelling ain't gittin no better..... |
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79nautique
Grand Poobah Joined: January-27-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 7872 |
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Ken that's the selling point and it's a good one as long as it's maped to your prop and not doctored electronicly to look good.
They are just using a modified CMM device and software to give you a print out to take home. Which is great info and shows the time they take. Looked at the website a little seem all right. My take is that the tolerance spec quoted was off a little .050" is alot and then you compare ACME's spec and also the standards deal, there's atleast three different standards that would apply too almost everything, gears, bearings, splines. pressure vessels and so on. Props may or maynot fall into that catagory so the ISO deal just narrows the tolerances. as far as the ACME's they excede the tightest spec cla$$ from the factory. Some are just slow when your messing with them. Never stated that they did crappy work ISO and .050" doesn't impress me, have a litttle on the job training about manufacturing and design so it helps to understand what they are saying and not get googled eyed about it. OH DOC I can send you a picture of my PURDUE degree in CIMT if you want. that's Computer Integrated Manufacturing Technology ( CIMT ) I can also design a cell to automate the process too but that takes deep pockets. Guess that's what's holding back the hy-tek dealer deal too. |
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21132 |
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Im not sure where the .050" tolerance that was quoted came from. The ISO standard that they reference is ISO 484/2 and is specific to marine propellor accuracy.
Ive been a huge proponent of Acme, but Accutech claimed that they were not ISO 484/2 Cla$$ I compliant. Again, not sure if that means anything or not- I dont have a mechanical degree. |
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79nautique
Grand Poobah Joined: January-27-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 7872 |
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who is he quoting? Accutech? 50/1000 = .050" 1/1000 = .001" and I doubt that the ISO # quoted is the only standard that would apply to props. What the actual numbers are is what's important not who's standard there using. |
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87BFN owner
Grand Poobah Joined: August-25-2006 Location: Ypsilanti, MI Status: Offline Points: 2194 |
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how much do guys here usually pay to have a prop repaired? I have never paid more then $75 and that was a 4 blade, my 3 blade is usually about $60.
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Nautique2001
Grand Poobah Joined: June-14-2004 Location: Massachusetts Status: Offline Points: 2832 |
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I copied and pasted the information from Accutech, Chris.
Ken |
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Nautique2001
Grand Poobah Joined: June-14-2004 Location: Massachusetts Status: Offline Points: 2832 |
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I copied and pasted the information from Accutech, Chris.
Ken |
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Nautique2001
Grand Poobah Joined: June-14-2004 Location: Massachusetts Status: Offline Points: 2832 |
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BTW, I'm going to stop by their shop on Wednesday. I'm going to ask to see how they measure the prop information on the computer, starting with my 540.
Ken |
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boat dr
Grand Poobah Joined: June-27-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4245 |
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Jim, the same people you bought the shaft from, General Propeller,does all my prop work.
Based on damage and time,50.00 is the norm. They also have a computer scan service,They have offered the service for several years.Joel say's it is used mostly for multi-engine aplications,so all the props are raked and pitched the same.........boat dr |
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Darrel
Senior Member Joined: June-16-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 340 |
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$50?? $75?? in So Cal, land of almost everything is more expensive, prop repair is always north of $120.
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21132 |
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I believe the other 2 repair shops at the Boston show were quoting ~$120 as well.
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place called sante marine in cleveland ohio. will repair nibral props for 80.oo...i have to send out my 4 blade 422 and might send out my 3 blade, has a few small small dings..no problems from it thoguh so i will prob. hold off on that one until it get really tweaked
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