New Project boat. 74 Mustang 17 |
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Gary S
Grand Poobah Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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It would be doable but it is not a RR engine either later boats did the reversing in the trans. Possible to have motor box fitting issues as well but not positive.
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Basketcase
Newbie Joined: July-31-2019 Location: New Hampshire Status: Offline Points: 28 |
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I figured it wouldn't be RR but if it is just a matter of changing the seal and polishing the crank properly, seems doable. But a mustang or truck motor I can get almost free any day of the week. This just seemed like a good opportunity if it wasn't too much trouble.
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Basketcase
Newbie Joined: July-31-2019 Location: New Hampshire Status: Offline Points: 28 |
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I notice you exclude the F150s. Is there a reason for that, or will the truck motors work as well? |
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Gary S
Grand Poobah Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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Well an explorer is a truck No reason why you could not use one but trucks are usually driven, until one way or another, dead. What you need is a Crown Vic with 80k driven by a little old lady and then wrecked by her grandson 😳
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Basketcase
Newbie Joined: July-31-2019 Location: New Hampshire Status: Offline Points: 28 |
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Got it! Thanks for the info, Gary. Super helpful.
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 10646 |
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Gary's more of a low rider type guy
Here's the PCM part number for a 1 piece rear main seal for a reverse rotation 302 R047127 Good luck finding one or something that cross references to it |
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Basketcase
Newbie Joined: July-31-2019 Location: New Hampshire Status: Offline Points: 28 |
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Are you implying they are made from Unobtanium?
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 10646 |
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It's like an Easter egg hunt
If you stumble into a few, buy them all. The front seal on the timing cover is easy, you can get a smooth lipped one that works for either direction of rotation. 302 and 351 use the same timing cover so the seal is the same for either. |
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 10646 |
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See the thread in the link, page 4 the 4th post from the bottom there's a post by Reid P saying he had 25 of them in 2011.
Numerous people on here know him and could probably put you in touch with him or you could email him thru the site. He hasn't been logged on in about a year, so a PM won't do much good. link |
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Basketcase
Newbie Joined: July-31-2019 Location: New Hampshire Status: Offline Points: 28 |
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I'll give it a shot. Thanks!
Anything to know with Roller vs Non-Roller blocks? Did I read that a RR rotation cam for rollers is not a thing? (reasonably) I think I can use a non-roller cam/lifter setup in a roller block but not the other way around? Yes? This is my first time playing with a pushrod motor. I've done plenty of overhead cam motors but this is my first old V8. |
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Risley00
Newbie Joined: July-28-2019 Location: Maine, USA Status: Offline Points: 19 |
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Hi TRBenj,
"Vintage cc with lefty = dangerous. Serious chine locker." The one we're restoring is a 76 CC Tique, we are starting to debate rotation- what is "chine locker"? I'm an avid waterskier and he's good with engines- but when we get her in the water I want to have many an excellent ski run behind her. Thanks for the extra knowledge! |
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21109 |
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Stick with a RH prop in that boat.
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Risley,
In your other thread, I asked what's up with the original engine? If at all possible, stick with the RR engine. If "he" is good with engines, tell him parts for a RR engine can be placed into another standard rotation engine making it a RR. Chine lock is when the chine (the intersection of the hull side to the hull bottom) digs into the water causing the boat to roll/flip. NOT good! |
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67 ski nat
Platinum Member Joined: July-19-2018 Location: Santa rosa Status: Offline Points: 1180 |
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Wow. Nice project you are really getting into it with the motor rotation thread. I will be rebuilding my RR soon so I’m interested in seeing your path and info. The rotation stuff is fairly technical. Good luck. Boat looks worth your trouble
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Basketcase
Newbie Joined: July-31-2019 Location: New Hampshire Status: Offline Points: 28 |
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I do think the boat is worthy of restoration.
I'm noticing that reverse rotation rear main seal are readily available for a 351.....I think I would only need a camshaft and intake manifold. I wonder how much the extra half inch deck height really effects the motor box clearance. |
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21109 |
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Same box it’ll fit.
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63 Skier
Grand Poobah Joined: October-06-2006 Location: Concord, NH Status: Offline Points: 4232 |
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When the boat is designed, the decision of which side the helm is put on, plus some subtle hull design details, are done with the prop rotation in mind. I'm not sure on the older hulls if there is much if any hull asymmetry involved, but they have narrower beams than newer boats and so are much more sensitive to reactions from prop rotation. I think what Tim and others here have found is that it's not just the torque lean from the rotation, which you can feel if you rev the engine in neutral, but at high speed you've got steering issues as well causing it to chine lock. Chine lock at high speed means the boat tries to turn hard and stop at the same time as the engine is trying to make it go fast and the result is everyone being thrown hard into one side of the boat, or ejected. The more I've read here over the years, the more convinced I am that there's really never a good reason to change the original designed rotation. |
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'63 American Skier - '98 Sport Nautique
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Basketcase
Newbie Joined: July-31-2019 Location: New Hampshire Status: Offline Points: 28 |
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Thanks for the info, everyone. You have convinced me to stay RR. Now I just need to decide how. It really looks like one of the best options could be to go with a 351 since the rear main is available in RR. Any down side to this? I know I need a new intake manifold to do this, but what can I use from my 302 if I decide to got this route? Dizzy? Cam? Would there be any other surprises waiting for me if I go this direction? As I mentioned, it seems like a 351 short block and GT40 heads for 500 locally is a reasonable deal. He said he also has an intake manifold too.
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 10646 |
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The distributors don't interchange
The flywheel and harmonic balancer from the 302 of that time frame were 28 oz imbalance and will work on the 351 The timing cover will interchange, you want to use the one from the 302 (if you have a marine 351 it would be the same cover) They're different from the auto versions mainly because they have a boss for mounting the raw water pump bracket that the auto ones don't. The RR starter from the 302 will work The bellhousing is the same also. Exhaust manifolds are the same Engine and transmission mounts are the same 302's usually had a 450 cfm Holley, the 351's had a 600 cfm Holley Cam and lifters could be reused if there was no damage from all the debris flying around when things broke. Like you said, you need a new intake. Alternator wiring harness etc from the 302 will work |
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Basketcase
Newbie Joined: July-31-2019 Location: New Hampshire Status: Offline Points: 28 |
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Awesome. Thanks, Ken. Its great to have all this info in one place, and I'm sure itll help others. It sure seems like the way to go. I've had no luck on that rear main for the 302 but the 351 seal is out there.
It is tough to decide. The deciding factor is that rear main. I'd be fine with a 302. Seems like a lot of parts to buy just because I cant find that rear main. I sent Reid P an email but didn't hear anything back. If anyone wants to reach out to him, I'd be grateful! |
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Basketcase
Newbie Joined: July-31-2019 Location: New Hampshire Status: Offline Points: 28 |
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Ok. So I'm still looking at my options. I'm finding a fair amount of older 2 piece seal 302 motors in standard rotation. A local machine shop says they machine off the knurling, add a sleeve and run the crank smooth with the 2 piece seal. What do we think of that? I did find a post from someone that had done it and was working fine. Anyone have any input or experience with doing that?
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 10646 |
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I imagine that was Gary's whose post you read and he'll be along to tell you it's been working fine
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Gary S
Grand Poobah Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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I never was successful with that scenario and 2 piece seal. After the second try I was told to use a rope seal which is what is in there now. Keep in mind this was before the internet. Rope seals are difficult to find now as well. If I was to attempt this again I would seriously think about having my block machined for a 1 piece seal. Either search hard for a RR seal or try a premium non wicked seal and see what happens IMHO.
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Basketcase
Newbie Joined: July-31-2019 Location: New Hampshire Status: Offline Points: 28 |
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Thank you for the testimonial. More data is good.
BTW, Reid does not own the dealership anymore, and they do not have any of the seals :( |
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Gary S
Grand Poobah Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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I’m just shooting my mouth off but I think the original plan of a late model engine would be the way to go something like an explorer with the side benefit of having GT P heads. Kens got a part number for for the correct flywheel. What happened to the 351 idea?
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Basketcase
Newbie Joined: July-31-2019 Location: New Hampshire Status: Offline Points: 28 |
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The 351 is still an option, but I'm just still researching. I actually found a RR351 local to me for a good price. Seems like it might be my best bet.
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zwoobah
Senior Member Joined: September-13-2018 Location: Providence RI Status: Offline Points: 308 |
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No replacement for displacement! Costs on building a 351 should be similar to building a 302. You can likely sell your existing 302 bits for the same cost as used 351 bits.
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1968 Mustang 16 - 351W powered
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Basketcase
Newbie Joined: July-31-2019 Location: New Hampshire Status: Offline Points: 28 |
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Not much left of my 302 to sell. lol. Haven't looked at the 351 yet. Not sure what it came out of and what is attached to it. I think I plan to go look at it next weekend. Fingers crossed it looks good and we can work a deal on it. |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Are you sure it can't be salvaged?
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Basketcase
Newbie Joined: July-31-2019 Location: New Hampshire Status: Offline Points: 28 |
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Lol. I think the drain plugs are still OK.
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