Tired Interceptor - Block Cracks Everywhere! |
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Gary S
Grand Poobah Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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When trying to match my cream colored gel I cut a piece out of the deck behind the seat and sent it off. Was not cheap and did not match,ended up using it by tweeking it on my own and came out pretty good. As to paint,I painted my Shamrock last summer. In looking on what paint to use I had read that Awlgrip could not be sanded and buffed. Something on how the paint cures and the pigment rising to the surface. Not sure about that and since I didn't want to take a chance I used Imron which I had experience with before.
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Glassdog
Groupie Joined: October-31-2014 Location: Pennsylvania Status: Offline Points: 62 |
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So, now my project takes another turn I had put it out there on craigs list I needed a block as my original known location of a 170 cu. in. was no longer an option. I am awaiting this guy to notify of his location and pics of an engine removed from an early comet he says runs and I get to struggle with more decisions. Last thing I need is another block that's shot
Anyhow, I diverted my attention to where I had early anticipated my most daunting of tasks fiberglass. I had observed work had been done to the stringers at some point, just not well and I thought after an initial cleaning up and exploratory surgery that I had disappointingly had some rot. Surprisingly, as I was removing glass they had applied that was not the case. Just dirt that had migrated between the partial / delaminated glass they had applied. They had not fully wrapped the side stringers. They did wrap the main stringers with what looks like a single layer of 17 oz. roving. Unfortunately, no chopped strand under and they did a very poor job of wetting out. So it appears that if I get the crappy work cut away and ground down to clean glass I can retain what's there with a few modifications or re-do of some poorly planned mountings etc. Fillet and re-wrap the main stringers with a double wrap of 7802 and the side stringers etc. with a single wrap of 7802 and possibly some surfacing veil and she's ready to get on her back. I don't know if I had stated this earlier. I have found during de-construction that the original gel of the top side was turquoise that had bee painted over with red imron. If anyone has re-done one of the same color is you have any information what you used for gel color please let me know. I will most likely get premixed / colored gel coat. If I attempt to match it on my own I can pretty safely guarantee that it will result in the first turquoise camo pattern American skier out there I know because of the level of crazing I'm taking the hull and topside down to glass. I have decided early to re-gel the hull, however, I may even awl grip the top side - weighing things out. Let me know your experiences with awl grip or the like - good or bad regardless of the color I have never used that type of product. This sure is stressful for what was to be a diversion for me and my kids Thanks again for everyone's interest. I don't often engage in forums because a lot of information is kind of sketchy, you guys are cool and have been very helpful and spot on! |
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Glassdog
Groupie Joined: October-31-2014 Location: Pennsylvania Status: Offline Points: 62 |
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Oh hey Pete. No I had not attempted any crack repair. That was the only pic I had to throw up. I think it's just the combination of light paint marker and a little hot tank solution residue.
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Glassdog
Groupie Joined: October-31-2014 Location: Pennsylvania Status: Offline Points: 62 |
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Yepper, TB Woods. Quite possibly the worst job I ever had
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Christopher,
I feel your choice for welding is good and certainly worth a try. Yes, it can't get any worse! Way back in my college welding class, I remember vividly one of the welding rod reps come in and weld a crack right in the cylinder wall. We took it over to the auto shop and bored it. You could hardly see the weld. That engine ran for two years and may still be running in a combine in Montana. I do suggest more preheat as well using a rod that's machinable if any of the weld area needs machining. Is that a attempt at brazing the crack or is it just the color of my monitor? TB Woods! As a mechanical engineer I've used plenty of their power transmission components through the years!! |
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Glassdog
Groupie Joined: October-31-2014 Location: Pennsylvania Status: Offline Points: 62 |
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Steve thanks for the info. I recall previous posts with you when I initially came into possession of my project. I'm not a Ford guy either, and have surprisingly found a lot of info regarding "tweeking" these little animals, that said.
Over the past several days I have gotten over my anxiety. I have an extensive past as a tool / die maker/ welder / millwright. I tend to discount that once in a while. I left that particular vocation while I still had all my fingers intact. Have over the past several years as the economy permitted would make it back in a shop for some p/t work just lacking that now - all out of business or still very lean. So, I'm not a stranger to welding cast iron and had a curve like anyone else unfortunately just not engine blocks - gearboxes, staunchons and the like that could be preheated easily and posted in sand. At this point, as a friend of mine told me"it won't get worse" So I am going to attempt to weld it up. Like most, I have looked at engine blocks like an egg so to speak and tended to downplay the possibility of repairs for a myriad of reasons, thermal stresses, etc. etc. Anyhow, my multiple contact attempts with Lock and Stitch have not netted me any reply. So weighing out the pro's and cons - which I find if you solicit information you get a pretty clear split on which is best. Stitch, weld, epoxies uggh! So i'm going to proceed with welding it. I dusted off some journals I kept years ago and I had actually forgotten how much I would record. Now i'm not a metallurgist, however in a past career (brief) I worked in the foundry of a large power transmission manufacturer (T.B. Woods) mixing and pouring Iron of all grades. And it doesn't qualify me to any great degree in identifying the particular composition of grey Iron, but I still recall conversations in the lab regarding all the hideously toxic items I was dumping and inhaling in cupolas just to get all the garbage scrap we melted overnight to spec. I drilled and ground all the cracks. I of course had hot tanked the block so pretty clean for the most part. My tentative plan is the weld it cold, short, short stringers and lots of peening. Only preheating to a small degree to knock the chill off the block. So I plan to have a long day(s) in it. I'm pretty sure I can control the heat enough. and will be able to work simultaneously on at least the inner cracks. Going to get a good "dirty" iron rod for the base welds and will probably go to a nickel 55 or 77 rod for the subsequent courses. Im not going to have to machine anything in relation to these welds so going to stay with a little harder rod to keep strength in the body of the weld itself and hopefully get pretty close to thermal characteristics of the base. As memory and recalled frustration serves me it was always the weld that cracked again after, with nickel 99 always down the middle never at the margins. So trying to balance ductility and ease. So welding in my ghetto shop, saving my money for another magnaflux. And to the proponents of space age technology please don't be dismayed I'm just not a supporter of epoxies on engine internals and not real keen on exterior either and I've bought my share of JB Weld over the years and agree it's a good product within reason and extremely useful in emergencies - that I do know. |
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62 wood
Grand Poobah Joined: February-19-2005 Location: NW IL Status: Offline Points: 4527 |
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A Ford six banger? Why would anyone put money into one of those loosers?
Actually, I had to learn more than I ever really wanted to know about the lowly six. My 64 has the Interceptor 100 (hp) for power (or lack there of.. ) When I bought my 64 , it ran ok, but never felt it was running to its potential, but hey it was a 6 banger(and a Ford ;) . The head appeared to have a couple of visible cracks. After doing some checking with the Hi-Po Ford six forum, I found out the head was a 73 dated head, probably off of a 200. Problem was, these heads have larger combustion chambers. Also, the 170 originally had a steel shim head gasket. When the PO replaced the head , they installed a FelPro gasket, which is thicker than the original head gasket.... One of the guys estimated the engine was running somewhere in the 7 to 7.5 compression ratio. Thanks to the help of a couple of guys from that forum, I installed a 200 head from a late 70's Monarch. This gives you larger / hardened valves and intake runner. (which was another issue I later ran into) I had the head milled (I think around .040) and installed all new valves and springs. Thankfully, I was able to keep the original 170 block... Now, onto what little I know about the 200 block. I bought an Intereptor FWF I/O six banger motor a few years ago from an estate. I was simply told the motor was from a Mustang. (car) When I tore the engine apart, I discovered the oil pan had been ground on next to the mounting flange. I think this motor had replaced a 170 and the reliefs were cut into the pan to clear the larger crank journal throw. I never got any farther into checking the compatibility of the 170 to 200 swap. But, since they share the same oil pan, you would also want to check on the mating of the tranny to the "front" of the 200. The Ford boys really couldnt help me much with this potential issue. From what I remember, the 300 wont even begin to work. ohhh, back to the larger intake runner of my 200 head. When I went to install the Carter YH carb, I had another unexpected surprise..... using the original Interceptor adapter elbow, the carb bowl hit the top of the intake runner. This led to making a custom stainless steel carb adapter.... (whch led to polishing the exhaust mani, chroming the original valve cover, etc., etc. ) |
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Glassdog
Groupie Joined: October-31-2014 Location: Pennsylvania Status: Offline Points: 62 |
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I think you're correct about that Gary. I haven't gone through it yet. But like any good auto repair / machine shop they have a junkyard! and my buddy told me they had a few 200's rolling around in it some where. He claimed he thought it was the same block ( just more main bearings) So I'm going to take a walk through and see what they look like personally my interceptor was the smallest ford inline I had seen everything else had a 300.
I'm going to check around. I did know where there was a donor 170 straight out of a comet and it ran. They were building the car up for the strip. Hopefully it didn't get recycled. |
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Gary S
Grand Poobah Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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I seem to remember Steve saying 200 is as big as you can go and have the Interceptor parts fit,the other engines are different in some way. I remember back in the day my Dad had a '66 Mustang with a 200 6 with a chrome valve cover and decal on the air cleaner declaring "Sprint" all backed up with a 3 speed and what seemed like a 308 gear
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Glassdog
Groupie Joined: October-31-2014 Location: Pennsylvania Status: Offline Points: 62 |
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Thanks guys for your interest and input!
Restoration is not for the faint of heart!! |
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Glassdog
Groupie Joined: October-31-2014 Location: Pennsylvania Status: Offline Points: 62 |
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That's classic inlines forum site, been through there. 200 cu. same block as 144 and 170. Same footprint. 250-300 would require dog house mods. Thanks for the interest going to walk a few scrap yards before I take action.
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Riley
Grand Poobah Joined: January-19-2004 Location: Portland, ME Status: Offline Points: 7948 |
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The 200 is probably too tall for your motor box. This web site has quite a bit of info. http://www.fordsix.com/ |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Steve (62wood) |
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Gary S
Grand Poobah Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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Get ahold of 62wood, even though a Chevy guy Steve knows more about those 6's than he would like to admit !
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Glassdog
Groupie Joined: October-31-2014 Location: Pennsylvania Status: Offline Points: 62 |
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Supposedly the block was used in comets , Falcons, and I think fairlanes and early rancheros. IDK about Broncos. I think possibly a mustang or two. Some of the info on the progression of the Ford sixes says basically the 144-200 cu. in. Are all the same just that the 170 got stroked and then the 200 got a bigger log intake etc. and was also further stroked then finally the 250 got crossflow and another 1.5" or so in block height to get to 250 cu. in.
So yes, I possibly a few options. Oh and the 200 up went to 7 main bearings from 4 so that peeks my interest. Don't mind worki'n just comes down to investment now. |
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Glassdog
Groupie Joined: October-31-2014 Location: Pennsylvania Status: Offline Points: 62 |
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I first saw it years ago when I was still working as a machinist / millwright. Saw some pretty extreme applications it was used for but have never known anyone in an auto or marine application. I'm kind of like Pete my curiously centered on how it handles heating / cooling cycles. And although I haven't had direct experience some of the information I've dug since acquired this boat referred to the inline interceptor as "hot head six" which suggests to me there's quite a swing during operation.
Saw a gearbox on an industrial screener all but split in half lock and stitched back together and run! Pretty abusive application huge internal counter weights, more stress than I thought a shoe box full of studs would close up. |
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Orlando76
Grand Poobah Joined: May-21-2013 Location: Mount Dora, FL Status: Offline Points: 3108 |
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I'm not familiar with the 170 Interceptor. Is it a Ford block, same as in the Early Ford Broncos? I just threw a presumed good 170 block away. Cruise the Early Bronco forums, you should be able to find a block there for next to nothing.
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skutsch
Grand Poobah Joined: June-19-2008 Location: Racine, WI Status: Offline Points: 2874 |
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Oh for those who also have not seen how this works, here is a video (long but if you skip through it you will get the idea).
BTW, I want one of those pneumatic tap tools! |
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skutsch
Grand Poobah Joined: June-19-2008 Location: Racine, WI Status: Offline Points: 2874 |
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That is crazy, I had never heard of the lock and stitch repair method, very interesting.
I wonder how they hold up, especially in an application like the marine world where the engines are under pretty heavy load. I know welding cracked heads in the Outboard racing world is VERY common. Very different materials though, those blocks are all Aluminum. But load and use is probably even worse then what we put our engines through, some of those guys are turning those things over 10k revs and leaned way out often times literally 10 or 20 degrees farenheit away from a complete melt down |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Christopher,
I feel there are just too many cracks to try to fix. Did the machine shop have any comments? I sure like the idea of finding a 200 but, did they get the 200 from boring or stroking? I'm not that familiar with the engine. The 200 sure is better than a repower! Dog bone stitching is a excellent method of crack repair but, in my opinion not for something that goes through heat cycles. Just a suggestion, but keep your posts in the same thread so we can follow better. |
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Glassdog
Groupie Joined: October-31-2014 Location: Pennsylvania Status: Offline Points: 62 |
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Hi All! Pete if your viewing put on your engineer hat my engineer father isn't available for comment
I received my 170 cu. in inline 6 Interceptor back from the machine shop late this afternoon with slightly hair raising news. For those of you who didn't follow the posting I had on general questions regarding drive i.d. I had my block out to be hot tanked. I was aware of one crack in the outer water jacket. I didn't get to bummed about that I was more worried the crank wouldn't polish out. Anyhow, my worst or most worst fears have now been realized. I got 3 more cracks to contend with! see pics below. So, I am mulling several options. (1.) continue to repair the block - lock and stitch or weld (2.) get maybe a 200 cu. in inline 6 and swap my maranization kit ( all aluminum interceptor parts) and drive - if possible. (3.) re-power completely. So my question is this. Anyone on the forum know anyone who has gone to the lock and stitch repair method? If so, to what degree. I have seen repaired industrial items a couple of times over the years repaired using that technique, unfortunately I don't know anyone who has had it done. I was curious about the longevity of the repairs. The machinist who checked the block for me told me that it's a really common method on heavy trucks. My reply those blocks are much more robust - so I kind of am curious. I do have access to a facility that will weld it - sand mound and bake oven. Im concerned my costs to save this engine are going to override the value of it. My order of restorations is way out of wack now I wanted to be glassing by now. |
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