HOORAY!!! I think I have Wet Foam |
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wwchevy
Senior Member Joined: August-22-2011 Location: Michigan Status: Offline Points: 369 |
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The insulation is not under the tank but it looks like it was oversprayed onto the tank and is in the gap where the tank sits on the wooden support. Wet foam, metal tank- it may have a hole in it. I'm not going to be able to work on the boat until the weekend, but once I get everything put of the boat I will know for sure.
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wwchevy
1989 Barefoot Nautique |
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wwchevy
Senior Member Joined: August-22-2011 Location: Michigan Status: Offline Points: 369 |
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I'm glad you posted Eric, I don't really have a formal pro/ con list but I should write one down. This whole project has my head spinning, but i have time because I am doing this over the winter. I have read a bunch of posts by some very knowledgable and talented people who have discussed the foam/ no foam controversy and have ended up going in both directions. Something you said really hit home for me- I have evidence of what wet foam does to a boat. In the stringer rebuild threads one common theme is that the people on this site have gone above and beyond what the factory would have done. Every stringer and support have been sealed, epoxied, and glassed the way God intended. Closed cell foam is definitely different than the open cell foam that CC used. I just don't want to ever do this job again, not because it is difficult and expensive but I would much rather spend my time wiping out skiing and barrel rolling across the reservior than disassembling the boat again. I'm leaning to no foam now
When I get the engine and trans out I would like to send the trans to you for a rebuild. I have a milk crate empty and waiting. |
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wwchevy
1989 Barefoot Nautique |
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eric lavine
Grand Poobah Joined: August-13-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 13413 |
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thats me and take it with a grain of salt, it is completely acceptable to re-foam, its impossible to know if a boat is completely sealed, all it takes is one pin hole to take water in and there is no way to test or even observe this. but over the years these are the only boats that i see that completely rot and its due to the design and the foam, sure boats rot, maybe just a keel board or a transom and thats because it sits in the water year after year...but think about, these boats sit on a trailer for 98% of their lives and they are the ones that rot the most, and its due to trapped/saturated foam
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"the things you own will start to own you"
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eric lavine
Grand Poobah Joined: August-13-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 13413 |
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maybe a good understandable comparison would be the salt on the roads up here in Ohio, if you owned a Lamborgini would you drive it on the salty roads?
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"the things you own will start to own you"
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BuffaloBFN
Grand Poobah Joined: June-24-2007 Location: Gainesville,GA Status: Offline Points: 6094 |
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I wonder what shape these boats would be in if a couple of small design changes had been made way back, and I'm not picking on CC here. For example: maybe the manufacturer of the vent hose told CC that their target environment for the product was fine. 20 years later, those of us with stringer job(s) behind us see that the vent hose clearly didn't hold up for the same 20 years, and I know none of us have nosed into a wake.
Another example: I can see a marine engineer not putting tons of thought into the battery cable ducting(box to bilge)since the box shouldn't be full of water. My boat was nasty when I got it, and I washed and rinsed everywhere. I didn't think anything about spraying water right into the front vents-they should drain, right? Of course it's a moot point, but those of you with original boats might not want to use the 'douse the gal' trick anymore. |
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storm34
Grand Poobah Joined: November-03-2008 Location: Dexter Iowa Status: Offline Points: 4492 |
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Anyone else find it interesting that old Century's with no foam seem to be solid as a rock? My 70 skier came without foam and is extremely solid for being left outside and neglected most of it's life. Here's a picture after I pulled the floor and found the bilge full of ice. Believe it or not, the stringers are solid with the exception of a few cross braces.
The rebuilds here are much more extensive than what came from the factory (not trying to dis CC here) so I feel the foam will be even less of an issue for those boats. In my eyes, the only thing that makes me lean towards foam is the fact that it will possibly absorb some of the vibration of the water and make for a smoother ride? |
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john b
Grand Poobah Joined: July-06-2011 Location: lake Sweeny Status: Offline Points: 3236 |
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I am curious now. Is the flotation foam in CCs open cell? I foamed my last restoration of another make boat, but I used the U S Composites product that is advertised as closed cell. It is available in different densities. prior to using it I saw a thread on one boat site, (I believe it was Glastron because I was restoring one about then) where a member had cast a cube of US Composites material and submersed it in water for about a year. He removed it periodically and weighed it. The weight gain was negligible, something on the order of a fraction of a gram if I remember correctly. It seemed to show that the new materials don't absorb water like the old stuff does. I also saw where some of the members had gone with no foam and sealed up the void for air chamber flotation. Several had made drain channels so water could drain between compartments and into the bilge. The compartments were sealed from the bilge by a drain plug. Several had gone even farther and had located small deck access fittings with screw on caps in inconspicuous areas in the floor. These caps were the screw in cover design. The owner would remove the caps and replace one of them with a cap he he'd modified to accept the hose from a shop vac. With this arrangement you could simply hook up the shop vac to one hole and suck large quantities of air through the under floor compartments drying them out. You can even monitor the humidity level of the discharge air if you are totally A/R. I guess this just shows that there are many solutions, its up to your imagination and others experience. I am not sure what I would do on my next boat. There are good arguments for both foam and no foam.
Good Luck! |
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21109 |
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I think thats a lesser concern. Youve had your Skier in the water, right? Did you note more vibration than a foamed boat? What about Joe's '83? Or our BFN? I think the biggest 2 drivers whether to foam or not are 1)build complexity (no need for extra ribs or cross bracing with foam, nor a fancy floor material) and 2)safety. The second is sort of debatable, as I believe its been documented that a waterlogged (foam) boat will still sink. If you think theres a legitimate chance of your boat heading to the bottom based on where you do your boating, then refoaming is a consideration... but there are other ways around that as well (foam under the gunnels, etc). |
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storm34
Grand Poobah Joined: November-03-2008 Location: Dexter Iowa Status: Offline Points: 4492 |
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Still haven't had that boat in the water yet. It may get some attention this winter but I've been saying that for how many years now?!
The 83 and BFN have a significant amount of cross bracing compared to what is in the Skier above! Guess I need to dump that thing in the water and go for a ride, huh? Without the cross bracing like you and Joe have, would you guess the hull to pick up more of the vibration from the water? And would a smaller hull make it more prominent? |
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john b
Grand Poobah Joined: July-06-2011 Location: lake Sweeny Status: Offline Points: 3236 |
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I can say that my 72 Mark Twain was significantly quieter after I foamed it. It was most noticeable on rough water. I can't say whether this was due to the bottom being more rigid, or it just absorbed a lot of sound. I didn't really notice any difference in vibration or handling, but the floor had a more solid feel as well. Lake Michigan is a good test bed for rough water too.
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Gary S
Grand Poobah Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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John, Green Lake is enough rough water testing thank you! Foam or no foam you won't be hearing nothing when you get your HM's running
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john b
Grand Poobah Joined: July-06-2011 Location: lake Sweeny Status: Offline Points: 3236 |
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Green Lake is one of my favorite lakes anywhere. A day boating on it is like a day spent in heaven. I used to stay at the Heidel House now and then before it burned down in the 70s and I have been there after the rebuild as well. I know what you mean about the chop, it reminds me of Lake Geneva. That said, there are seldom 5-7 footers to contend with. it was not uncommon to launch my boat high enough to get 2-3 seconds of air time for my prop coming off a big one in the Chicago Ocean. I would not take the Mustang out there. I would be cautious on Green Lake with it as well, they seem to have little freeboard. I will visit Green Lake for the reunion next year if I get it running in time. I will probably go even if I don't just to meet some members and enjoy the CC eye candy.
Let's see, to foam or not to foam........ |
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Gary S
Grand Poobah Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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I have been in some very rough water in the Florida Keys but I understand that the rollers in the Great Lakes are different than anywhere else,after all I am old enough to remember the Edmund Fitzgerald
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john b
Grand Poobah Joined: July-06-2011 Location: lake Sweeny Status: Offline Points: 3236 |
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Funny you would mention that ship. The marina on my chain is called Greer's Pier. It is owned by Greer, his real name is Edmund G Fitzgerald. The ship was named after his grandfather.
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jbear
Grand Poobah Joined: January-21-2005 Location: Lake Wales FL. Status: Offline Points: 8193 |
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sitting here looking at a picture of the 'Big Fitz' here in the computer room. always wanted to spend a summer on a Lakes freighter.
john |
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"Loud pipes save lives"
AdamT sez "I'm Canadian and a beaver lover myself"... |
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eric lavine
Grand Poobah Joined: August-13-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 13413 |
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caught a show on the Fitz, if i remember correctly it snapped in half? the way they could tell was from the cable hand rails were snapped, the boat would go between waves and flex convex, obviously when the boat got a center wave the cables would sag, think i have it bacerds
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"the things you own will start to own you"
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65 'cuda
Platinum Member Joined: July-12-2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Status: Offline Points: 1091 |
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Yipee! I know that I do!
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wwchevy
Senior Member Joined: August-22-2011 Location: Michigan Status: Offline Points: 369 |
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It looks like you were exactly right. I peeled back some of the darker fiberglass and found circular saw cut lines and Great Stuff foam where they covered the exhaust....guess they forgot to seal it up with fiberglass. Must have been a MC mechanic I can't wait until Saturday when I cut the floor out and start digging out the foam and water. Once that is done I am towing it to the pole barn where I am storing it so I can work on it at my leisure. |
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wwchevy
1989 Barefoot Nautique |
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wwchevy
Senior Member Joined: August-22-2011 Location: Michigan Status: Offline Points: 369 |
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Started removing wet foam today, Where in the H*ll does all this water come from-(I know...the lake). Has anyone found a smoking gun? Holes in the hull, leaks in the exhaust hoses, leaks around hull penetrations, wet speedos?? Thought I would update with photos. 3 garbage bags of wet foam down 12 more to go.
A little Damp water with gasoline mixed in. Sweet!!! Potential crack in exhaust hose?? |
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wwchevy
1989 Barefoot Nautique |
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wwchevy
Senior Member Joined: August-22-2011 Location: Michigan Status: Offline Points: 369 |
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Finally removed all of the foam, 18 bags in all. I didn't weigh it all but at around 40 lbs each I am guessing conservatively 700 lbs wet foam. I had gasoline soaked foam in the rear port corner, probably due to a small leak in the tank. When I removed the foam around the exhaust, I noticed that the through hull exhaust fitting to hose connection in that same corner had deteriorated and the hose was mushroomed just past the clamp. That same exhaust fitting did not protrude outside of the transom as far as the starboard side. I'm not sure why- maybe it was pushed in? I believe it leaked water where the through hull exhaust fitting should have been sealed. I bought a cherry picker off Craigslist for $60.00 and am now going to remove the engine and pull the wiring harness back through the tube and secure under the dash.
I am about to trailer the boat to the pole barn where I am storing it, should I fabricate temporary cross braces (floor supports)to connect the main stringers to the secondary stringers? Should I be concerned about the hull flexing during transport? Left side pushed in, not sure why?? Exhaust hose deteriorated and mushroomed, due to contact with gasoline soaked foam?? |
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wwchevy
1989 Barefoot Nautique |
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storm34
Grand Poobah Joined: November-03-2008 Location: Dexter Iowa Status: Offline Points: 4492 |
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Looking good! I wouldn't worry about too much hull flex at this point. My Skier has the same amount of support with the exception of the floor which was simply screwed to the tops of the primary stringers.
Looks like you've already pulled your exhaust hoses...I would have been curious to swing by the ramp with all the foam out to test if you could see the leak and see the difference from the weight. |
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ny_nautique
Platinum Member Joined: June-01-2011 Location: Albany NY Status: Offline Points: 1215 |
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Wow Wes... I don't think I've seen one as wet in all the other teardown threads I've seen on this site. Looks like you have a great start and some room to work on it indoors. Good luck!
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- Jeff
1999 Ski Nautique |
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wwchevy
Senior Member Joined: August-22-2011 Location: Michigan Status: Offline Points: 369 |
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DAAAAANG! Chris, I really wish I had thought of that. I just pulled the exhaust about 5 hours ago AND I had the day off work today too. I really would like to have seen a smoking gun as to how this much water got in the foam. I will make sure everything is sealed up when it goes back together hopefully fixing whatever was wrong. It would have been alot more fun seeing water gush in somewhere like the Titanic. Oh well, live and learn. |
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wwchevy
1989 Barefoot Nautique |
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Bri892001
Grand Poobah Joined: September-27-2008 Location: Boston MA Status: Offline Points: 4945 |
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I'd say it's not the end of the world as you know you have to replace that exhaust hose anyway. After you replace it, you can float it then see if you still have a leak.
Not sure if you're planning to re-foam or not, but I'd vote in favor of finding away to not foam around the exhaust. And, if you can, try to float before you totally button up the floor. |
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21109 |
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I think that goes without saying! It only took CC a few years of foaming boats to figure out that was a bad idea... they stopped foaming the exhaust in by 1973. I would recommend borrowing the secondary stringer design from a boat a few model years newer. Keegan has some good pictures in his thread- I believe I posted some pictures of the stringers from my '78 Ski Tique, which shared the same hull. The removable panel spans both the primary and secondary stringers, so the exhaust hoses are fully serviceable long after you finish your stringer/floor job. |
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Keeganino
Grand Poobah Joined: October-27-2009 Location: North Carolina Status: Offline Points: 2063 |
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The way my floor turned out I am able to remove the back seat and lift the rear floor panel by the hinges just like the engine cover. Makes it easy to service all the parts back there. I did not bother to put the hatch above the shaft seal back in.
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"working on these old boats may not be cost effective but as it shows its what it brings into your life that matters" -Roger
1973 Skier |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Hey Keegan, I think we found a hull that was actually worse than your's!! Man, talk about wet foam and rot, this is a classic!! |
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wwchevy
Senior Member Joined: August-22-2011 Location: Michigan Status: Offline Points: 369 |
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Brian,
I am probably not going to refoam, but putting it in the water before buttoning up the floor is definitely a good idea. Tim and Keegan, Are these photos what you are talking about? I see the difference in the stringer design where the exhaust is pocketed between the main and secondary stringers. Is the extra secondary stringer lamination sufficient to beef up the structure and compensate for the lack of foam (assuming foam is structural)or will I need additional cross braces? I am at the point where I am formulating my rebuild plan before I remove any stringers. |
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wwchevy
1989 Barefoot Nautique |
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wwchevy
Senior Member Joined: August-22-2011 Location: Michigan Status: Offline Points: 369 |
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Pete, You aren't kidding! I knew this boat was a classic when I bought it, I just didn't know what kind of a classic. |
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wwchevy
1989 Barefoot Nautique |
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21109 |
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The foam is structural- the hull/floor/foam sandwich makes for a nice strong structure. The smaller, thicker hull youre working with is fairly sturdy, but Id add some additional ribs both for structural and floor support. Spacing them every 2' would probably be fine. |
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