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need prop help for ’76 ski tique

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moses View Drop Down
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    Posted: August-31-2008 at 5:22pm
help me or point me in the right direction boys. i'm a newbie . my 76 ski tique won't pull little old 270lbs. of me out of the water with any speed even on two skis .the motor is in fine shape and its running a 3 blade 11inch 14pitch prop. with 3 on board, there is no quick coming out of the water, and the top speed with 3 on board at wot is 3800 rpm and 44 mph. if we drop a bunch off on the pier , 2people at wot can get to 4400rpm and 46mph, but still no good take off. i'm feeling that the prop is wrong and don't know which way to go, 3 or 4 blade? and what pitch? is there an orig. prop and pitch suggested for the 76 tique or should i try the oj co. for a suggestion? you guys like them a bunch. thanks for such anice site and forum , its been alot of fun to check it all out. moses
james m
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-31-2008 at 9:30pm
James,
First, you have the wrong boat for lots of people. The Tique for skiing ideally should have the driver and the observer.
The numbers don't add up. You drop off one person and gain 600 RPM's? How do you know the engine is in good shape? Compression test? Your 4400 WOT isn't bad.
The Tiques came with 12" dia. props. I'm running a 12 X 13 O.J. on mine. 302, about 4400 WOT and I'd guess at around the 44 to the 45.
Where did the 11" dia. prop come from? The only CC's that ran them are the shorter (14'6") Atom skiers!!!


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 75 Tique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-31-2008 at 10:47pm
Pete,

My Tique has the 11 x 14 which based on prior conversations around here, I believed was the stock prop.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-31-2008 at 11:52pm
Larry, I'm not doubting you at all but the 11" dia. is a new one on me.

I did try the 13" Acme 540 and had the bad result.

James (or Larry) can you measure how much room you have between the hull and the O.D.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 75 Tique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-01-2008 at 1:01am
Sorry Pete (and James), I misspoke. I do have a 12 x 14, which again, as I meant to say above, believe was the stock prop.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moses Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-01-2008 at 1:55am
thanks for the info, i'm going to check the compression and timing. i'm also headed to the scales to see if i'm carrying the soaked foam under the floorboards syndrome, i pray not. i'll also check the space between the prop and the hull, and get back to you. the boat came to me with the current prop on it
james m
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-01-2008 at 8:47am
James,
Putting it on the scale is a great method of checking the weight. Do you have the trailer weight? You can also tell by seeing how low it sits in the water. Get a shop tach on to double check the WOT. Don't worry about getting the prop hull clearance now that Larry found his glasses!!!

The O.J. 12 x 13 is a great prop. I believe both Reid and the Boat Dr. run them too. The problem I had with the Acme 540 was vibration being a 13" yet, there are people running them on Tiques. It ran too close to the hull. I wish Acme made some 12" props!


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moses Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-01-2008 at 6:26pm
thanks guys the 12x13 is a three blade right? ill look into the oj ones
james m
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote boat dr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-01-2008 at 6:54pm
Moses, gotta agree with Pete on the above statement. You got too much prop there,and there are only two options.
#1 12x13 OJ Legend, stock on your boat
#2 Find some more HP, GT40 Heads, new intake , ignition upgrade.

Option #1 is by far the cheapest.....

Good Luck and welcome to the site...Boat dr
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote reidp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-02-2008 at 12:35am
While I've yet to see one personally in action, and esp being a fan of the 12x13 that Pete mentioned above, Acme is now making a 1210, which is a 12.5x12. It might not be too large depending on how much clearance your current set-up results in. This prop is somewhat new from Acme and was supposedly created to handle the 12" diameter requests, and Bruce from Midwest Correct Craft has installed one and said worked fine. I really wanted to know why it was 12.5" and not 12", but I think it's simply because cutting a 540 13x12 down to 12" resulted in not enough prop in terms of comparible bite to a 12x14 Federal-Michigan OEM replacement, and Acme unfortunately may not be up to providing a completely new design. Further along that line, Acme shows no 3-blade pitch in their RH line-up between 12 and 15", with the 15" props being used on the 1.23 set-ups. So there's no other prop they can cut the diameter down on. LH is a whole other ballgame with pitch options at 12.5, 12.625 etc.. I found all this out after winning the Acme prop certificate at the GL reunion and then talking to Bill Weeks in the weeks since. My personal goal now is to probably try one of those but have some additional cup put in as I feel for mine the typical 12.5x12 will still turn too many rpm and still. So maybe the 1210 (12.5x12) is worth a try for a standard 302 engine.      
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moses Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-02-2008 at 12:45am
i took the official measurement tonite. the prop which has o johnson n printed on it is 11/8 inches from the bottom of the boat. it is a 3blade 14 pitch 11 inch. is that enough clearance to try the legend 12x13? it's been a long time since i played with the props, if you go down in number of pitch that gives better hole shot and lower top end? how does the 11-12 inch conversion kick into all that rocket science? need more chutzpah to push the 12? i'm after the compression next trip to the garage, then the scales, boat with out battery is supposed to be 1600 lbs. and believe i saw on the site some where the trailer is 500lbs. i'll do some more praying that no h2o is below. the boat did sit in my garage for 14 years till the kids started on me for the need for speed and ski. thanks for the input so far, you guys are priceless, i'll get some more fodder for the moses slow boat diagnosis quickly. jlm
james m
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Luchog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-02-2008 at 2:30am
Reid, interesting ACME is doing 12.5 diameter,

I currently run a 13x12 michigan on my 80 and get 2600rpms at 22mph while pulling a wakeboarder with 800lbs of added weight. I told my mechanic that I felt the boat needed at least 2800rpms to get more torque and pull better, he suggested I got a 12.5x12 instead of the ACME 542, I was even considering reworking my 13x12 into 12.5 diameter but fear ruining it and want to keep it as a spare.
how do you think this two propellers will compare???(1210 vs 542)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-02-2008 at 7:53am
Luch,
Stay out of this one!! You have a Nautique that runs a 13" prop. James has a Tique that has the 12". Your going to confuse the guy!

James.
"Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain". Go with the 12 x 13 O.J. Legend and you'll find it's great prop. Get rid of that 11" that somehow go on the boat. Let someone else (like Reid) do the experimenting with the new 12.5"!!


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moses Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-02-2008 at 10:14pm
thanks for the help guys ill havve a look i like the legend and it is cheaper
james m
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote reidp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-03-2008 at 12:20am
Originally posted by Luchog Luchog wrote:

Reid, interesting ACME is doing 12.5 diameter,

I currently run a 13x12 michigan on my 80 and get 2600rpms at 22mph while pulling a wakeboarder with 800lbs of added weight. I told my mechanic that I felt the boat needed at least 2800rpms to get more torque and pull better, he suggested I got a 12.5x12 instead of the ACME 542, I was even considering reworking my 13x12 into 12.5 diameter but fear ruining it and want to keep it as a spare.
how do you think this two propellers will compare???(1210 vs 542)


Luch,
My personal opinion is that you might want to stay with the 13" dia. and try the 542 OR re-size your existing prop pitch to a 13x11 instead of reducing dia to a 12.5x12, with the goal of staying with the original recommended diameter of 13". If you didn't like the modified 13x11 you could always re-pitch it back, but as you mentioned, you can't go back and add diameter. The 13x11 will definitely pull your rpm's up across the entire range. As a general rule, where clearance allows, you get better pull and response with a larger dia to pitch ratio, and more speed with less dia vs more pitch. As for the 12.5 dia offering, Bill Weeks at Amce told me that this was directed towards the old school SkiTique/Mustang 12x14 replacement and not a 13" alternative.   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moses Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-03-2008 at 12:41am
thanks again for the discussion boys, when the cash comes out of the wallet for the prop, which won't happen till i pass the scale test and the compression test, it will be for the oj legend, ried and luch are onto some real fine tuning, but i don't want to be guinea pig just yet, all i want is the old tique to pull my arms out of the sockets on take off and from the input i'm getting legend boys like their prop on the tique just finei'll get back to you all after the next trip to the garage. the reference section came up with 449 lbs, for the trailer. i,m looking for 2049lbs, boat and trailer nobattery when i hit the scales.pray for no wet foam boys!
james m
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 79Tique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-03-2008 at 1:31am
Moses, I had a 79 Tique and tried the O.J. Legend and did not get the hole shot increase that the Acme 542 gave me. I know someone said they had a vibration on a Tique from the Acme 540, but the 542 ran smooth as glass on my 79. In fact nothing I tried gave the hole shot the 542 did.

Just my two cents.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moses Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-03-2008 at 11:43pm
thanks mr. tique; what size is the acme 542? i'll explore that and the legend after the compression and weight jury come in, i don't have alot of room under there, it was 1 1/8inches from the 11inch prop to the bottom of the hull. moses
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-04-2008 at 7:52am
James,
Both the 540 and the 542 are 13" dia. I had a vibration at all speeds when I tested the 540. Reid had the same results. When a prop is run too close the the hull, it creates turbulance and cavitation. It can be so bad that it will "burn" the gel coat and eventually start on the hull itself. Here's a picture of the hull "rash". See the gel that is missing as well as the etching of the surouning area.



I don't know why Gabe (79tique) isn't getting the vibration running the 542. Did the 79's have 13" props from the factory? I don't know! The 540 on my Tique resulted in a WOT of 4400-4500 RPM. With a 542 and it's lower pitch I feel you would be pushing that WOT RPM too far. Gabe, what's your WOT and the condition of the engine?

James, You have myself, Reid and the boat Dr. recommending the 12" O.J. - stick with it.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-04-2008 at 1:02pm
Tough call on this one. I loved the 12x13 OJ on my Skier- I think it has a better holeshot than the 12x14 Federals that I have. The results have been mixed on the 540/542 as far as vibration goes, but my feeling is that either would have a superior holeshot compared to the others. Top end might suffer a bit, though. For what its worth, Ive run what appears to be a 13" diameter prop on both my Skier and Ski Tique with no vibrations whatsoever. It has less than 1/2" of hull clearance with no ill effects to speak of.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 79Tique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-04-2008 at 2:38pm
The 302 in my Tique is is in top shape, low hours ,very strong and does not burn a drop of oil. My Tique did not come with a 13" prop but with the 13" on it it has about 3/4" of clearance. It runs much smoother than the stock Federal.

WOT RPM is about 4600 at 44MPH. I ran the boat for about 150 running hours with the 542 and the new owner has put another 100 on it and no problems.

The 542 improved hole shot better than anything I tried and speed control at slalom speeds improved as well.

Every thing was stock on my boat, but I don't know if there were changes for the 79 year. If you click on the picture of my 79 there is a picture of the 542 on the Tique when the prop was new.

Also I just tried a Acme 540 on my 94 Nautique and had all the same performance improvements, and that is not a recommended prop for that boat. The motor in my 94 is burning oil pretty bad right now though. I'll be fixing that this winter.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moses Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-05-2008 at 3:53am
thanks again for the input boys, i'll try the oj , hope to do compression check and weight this weekend. too chicken to try a 13 inch, my gel coat is pristine in the prop area. i'm gonna stick to the tried and true oj when i go out to buy the prop. moses
james m
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moses Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-07-2008 at 1:20pm
Well Boys We Have BAD NEWS The Old Boat Is carrying 470LBS Of extra weight in the floors. Looks like clam diggin is out and foam diggin is in
james m
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moses Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-07-2008 at 6:34pm
hello boys; iforgot to mention that when we towed the old ski tique to the land fill to weigh it with the old 69 dodge wagon ,the lady at the dump asked which was i dropping off , the car or the boat? to add insult to injury, on the way back to the shop the springs said bye bye on the trailer. thanks goodness i just bought a new set that are waiting on the table. iread the pumpkin patch pretty heavy, does any body have any pics of a tique floor on the site under the knife ? the nautique floor is a little different layout.i'll take plenty of pics of my surgery, but now i gotta go bye some baby powder to cover up in before i dive in. thanks for the guidance, you guys are great! moses
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moses Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-07-2008 at 11:37pm
thanks very much pete for the picture. awesome wood work job.was that front foam the only thing dry in the foam dept. when you did that job?i came up with 2520 lbs. boat and trailer, which i subtracted 495 for the trailer. the boat should weigh 1600 no battery and no gas? am i on the rite track?i did preliminary surgery this afternoon and found very little to report in the wet foam dept. in the area just in front of the engine on the right side, i found the bottom 1/2 inch to be wet. towards the rear its not wet. i'm taking photos along the way.i'm not finding eureka yet, have i lost my mine and got the wrong numbers? the boys are telling me the old boat is crying with every cut. moses
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-08-2008 at 7:24am
James, Keep digging!! You may not find all of the 470lbs. due to some minor weight figures being estimates but it will be close! With water at about 62 lbs per cu. ft., it doesn't take much.

The PO did my Tique so I can't take credit for it. Yes my understanding is the foam up under the bow was dry so he left it.

You do know we love pictures so do get them going!!


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-08-2008 at 1:29pm
James, I have some pics of my Tique during its reconstruction in my diary. I rebuilt it in the factory style.

1978 Ski Tique
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moses Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-08-2008 at 3:23pm
thanks for the reply boys, i'm going diggin tonite. what kind of foam did you'all put back in? west marine though pricey has some in their catalog. epoxy resin is the way to glass over the top.the foams got to be closed cell.thanks tr for your photos also. i'm tryin to fiqure out how to send you all some of mine. moses
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-08-2008 at 3:37pm
James, all of my materials (incl foam) came from US Composites.
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