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Removing Protec & Throttlebody, installing carb |
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KENO 
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 Topic: Removing Protec & Throttlebody, installing carbPosted: May-30-2021 at 5:53am |
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Well, you've come a long way from a pile of expensive parts with no decent instructions, sounds like the boat runs good and no labor charges were involved.
The auto bilge pump should be wired so it'll run with the ignition breaker OFF. And like you said, you should have no power to anything ignition related with the key in OFF. Now it's time for "the talk"  No, no nothing to do with those teenage years, just your transmission. I guess it's bad enough that you won't be living with it for a while based on your last comment about a short summer. If you can figure out if it's leaking from the front or back, doing a seal on either end isn't too bad. Assuming it's a PCM 40A, somebody here just did the rear seal with it still in the boat but it has to come out for the front seal. You can do some searching about transmission removal, seal replacement etc here on CCF. You can also read about damper plate replacement while the transmission is out and decide if you want to do that too. Keep in mind that your PCM 40A takes it's own "special" damper in the 200 dollar or so range. Here's a link to a recent rear seal thread complete with a phone number for Joe at FFI marine who would have parts and probably some free advice too. Meanwhile I'm gone for the next 4 or 5 days so enjoy the rest of the weekend, do some reading and you'll be able to get through a seal job.
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Erikgundy98
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Joined: February-09-2021 Location: Vancouver, wa Status: Offline Points: 62 |
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Posted: May-30-2021 at 2:54am |
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So, no stumble when Perfect Pass is turned “Off.” I guess I’ll figure out how that thing works later. For now, hoping the transmission stops leaking, or it’s gonna be a short summer.
Does the “ignition” button have to be depressed to run the “automatics bilge pump”? Assuming there is no power to anything “ignition” related, aka coil, etc when the key is not turned “on”. Is that correct? Fun day fishing and boating. Thanks for all the help. I couldn’t have had today with my family without your help! |
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Erikgundy98
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Posted: May-29-2021 at 10:06am |
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Could the perfect pass be doing the stumbling? There is another electronic piece under the copilot seat, that was just hanging (not actually fixed to a rigid location in the boat), and honestly I don’t know which way to sim it. It says to aim towards the bow if using north facing magnets, and sim to the stern if using south facing magnets. I don’t know what this means, so I don’t know which direction to aim it.
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KENO
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Posted: May-29-2021 at 9:26am |
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Eric
Here in the link below (on page 19 of the printed manual) is how PCM tells you to start their carbureted engines, it sounds suspiciously pretty much like what was described earlier |
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KENO
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Posted: May-28-2021 at 7:51pm |
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There's a chance it might seal up on it's own. About as much as seeing Bigfoot and the Loch Ness monster playing together
If the leak isn't very bad, you could join the "if it don't slip, let it drip" club for a while, so you can get all your bugs worked out, then get through the season and get it fixed or tear into it yourself. Oil absorbent towels/socks can help keep things like your lake from getting an oil sheen from your bilge pump. As far as your 2500 rpm stumble, I'm still doing some thinking on that. PS buy yourself one of the many Holley books that are available, it'll be real handy
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Erikgundy98
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Posted: May-28-2021 at 4:29pm |
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Ha! Cause I didn’t miss that right of passage, I just didn’t know what was happening when I used to pump my 1979 rabbit, or might 1970 Carmen Ghia gas pedal before I started. OK, so the rabbit was fuel injected :-) but, when I did get my first carbureted car and second and third, and I would use the exact thing you described, I didn’t actually know what was happening. So your explanation, and now bringing all of that back, I appreciate your explanation!
When I rebuilt my first carburetor, I learned about the functions of everything you just described. But, I guess I just didn’t realize that this holly carburetor, although 2 to 3 times larger than my old pict-3, operates much the same. I had no idea how similar this holly carburetor, and my little tiny carburetor on my old V dubs, are. At least, as you explain the functions of this carburetor, I see all the parallels. Thanks for your advice. So now, the perfect pass has been resealed, but… In removing that, I noticed new red tranny fluid in the bilge. Awesome. (Not awesome). I inspected the lines to and from the cooler, and couldn’t find any leaks anywhere… Until I wiped my hand on the bottom point of the transmission, and it was wet, red. Ugh. Any chance my seal might have just been dry, and… It’s going to seal up on its own? I will be picking up an extra bottle for this weekend. Dang it |
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KENO
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Posted: May-28-2021 at 12:34pm |
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Erik
My ultra keen powers of perception tell me that you're young enough that you missed one of those teenage rites of passage into manhood............ pumping the throttle You probably never had a car with a carburetor, but the typical routine was to pump the gas pedal a couple of times right before you turned the key. It did a couple of things, first it set the choke and the high idle cam and it also shot a couple squirts of gas down the carburetor from the accelerator pump. Being a boat, with a marine Holley, the fast idle linkages aren't all there and connected and don't work. But those shots of gas help make it start quickly. None or not enough makes for a tough start, too much makes for a flooded engine and a tough start. You could have 12 people tell you their starting routine and they'd all be somewhat different, but if your choke seems OK from the videos above and you pump the throttle a couple of times and with it in neutral, you turn the key it should fire right up and you then play "human fast idle cam" and let it warm up for a minute or so at around 1200 to 1500 rpm, the electric choke will be open or most of the way open and you can bring it back to idle, then go happily on your way. Some will have the throttle cracked a little while turning the key, others will leave it at idle speed, some pump with the neutral button pressed in so they can give it some good pumps, some pull it out but pump in Reverse, some lpull it out and pump till it hits the button, some people spend a lot of time dialing their choke into the Holley spec while some just disable the choke in the fully open position. Like i said, you could get lots of opinions and variety so do whatever works for you. Carburetors are like women, they can be a little..........well you know I'd start by a quick check of the choke operation (which should be OK as shipped) and pump it a couple of times and see what happens then you can come up with your own routine..
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8122pbrainard
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Posted: May-28-2021 at 9:25am |
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Holley 4 barrel choke: (ignore fast idle cam proceedure) Bench test choke (engine not running): Note when cold, the choke butterfly is just slightly open.
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Erikgundy98
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Posted: May-28-2021 at 8:46am |
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I first tried to just turn the key without giving it gas at all. That didn’t work. So I then cranked with giving it throttle (first about 1/8 throttle, which wasn’t enough I thought (as it wasn’t catching, wasn’t sounding like it was even close) so I gave it more, giving it throttle until it hit the neutral button), and still nothing, so I kept cranking it, as I wondered if the fuel had just left the fuel line and been sucked back into the tank. I thought maybe my anti syphon valve wasn’t working. Then it finally caught, and purred. I don’t know where the choke position you speak of, is. |
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KENO
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Posted: May-28-2021 at 6:34am |
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What's your cold starting routine?
What's the choke position when the engine is cold?
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Erikgundy98
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Posted: May-27-2021 at 9:49pm |
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Funny story. You want it?
So a friend of mine has a boat. I ask him to meet me at the lake so if I need a tow in, he’s there. He does. But day before we meet, he buys a new (2019) 12 passenger Yamaha double jet boat (twin engines). It’s big. I meet him out on lake. I am nervous, first time in this boat on the water. I find this leak (mentioned above, thanks by the way!!), and it takes 30 seconds of cranking to get it to start (gotta get that figured out), but when it starts, it purrs. We putt out to middle of the lake and meet my friend. He gets his going a bit. I do too. I’m probably 2500 rpm max. I have a flat spot. With throttle sticking in one spot, it revs back and forth, like I’m feathering it (but I’m not). But then he punches his boat. He takes off. I do too. And I leave him in the dust!!! I mean, he was trying to catch me, which kept me with the throttle goosed, and just letting it go. 4,000 rpm is what I read, and he said he was going 45 and couldn’t catch me. So it moves! Wide open it moves. But that flat spot.... hope I don’t have a skier (kid) skiing slow, and have that problem. No problem at all at idle. At 1000-2000 rpm, no prob. But right around 2500, it revs up and down. Thoughts? Thanks for the link! My buddy, (who just dropped $60K on a Yamaha, which I know is nothing now a days) his wife was not impressed with their new purchases’ ability to catch us ;) ha! |
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KENO
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Posted: May-27-2021 at 8:55pm |
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I think you really do have an idea
Here's a link to a PP manual It may or may not be exactly the same version but on page 13 it talks about the paddle wheel installation. I'd take it out and reseal it from below like the manual describes. It mentions GE silicone sealant. Some people break out in hives whenever silicone gets mentioned and they might recommend 3M4200 or maybe Loctite PL Marine sealant. They're both plenty strong but easier to remove than something like 3M 5200 You can find the Loctite stuff at Home depot in the paint department pretty easily Did you get to run it for a while or was the leak too big?
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DVskier
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Posted: May-27-2021 at 8:53pm |
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Erik, That is the paddle wheel for the Perfect Pass speed control.
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Erikgundy98
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Posted: May-27-2021 at 8:38pm |
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Thanks for the advice on getting on the water.
Yesterday I took it out on Lacamas Lake (Camas, WA) to do a test run. found a good sized leak on the electronic thingy thru-hull (next to the drain plug). I have been searching the manual, and this forum, for details on what this is. Its a grey plastic, and on the bottom there is a little spinning wheel. What is this thing called? It is leaking. Its leaking along the gasket. What is it? Can I just tighten the large nut, or is it advised to apply calk or something on the outside of it? I think it might be part of the Perfect Pass... I have no idea! Thanks Erik
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KENO
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Posted: May-18-2021 at 5:29am |
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Don't get bummed yet Not knowing what your surfaces look like, the internal leak is a possibility, not a guarantee If you were to get in some run time first, then pull the plugs to check for any water/moisture in the cylinders and check the oil for water, you'll know if you have an internal leak. I'd probably get in some run time on Memorial Day just to check for any running issues of any kind with all the work that you've done..
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Erikgundy98
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Posted: May-17-2021 at 7:55pm |
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My worry is getting the exhaust manifold bolts loose. They look like they’ve never been removed before.
Dang it. Ok, I see how much worse it could be, if I am getting water in the exhaust. Damn! I’m so bummed as I want to be on water on Memorial Day! |
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KENO
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Posted: May-17-2021 at 6:29pm |
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You've already mentioned the best solution, but depending on your budget the other 2 may work for you.
If you're comfortable with it from your previous BYH experience, then it's your choice
If the pitting is bad enough and widespread enough in that area, you might have water leaking into the exhaust side of the engine along with the external leak. That'll make more issues. |
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Erikgundy98
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Posted: May-17-2021 at 1:21am |
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I will, I don’t need it. I don’t want to throw it away.
I feel bad for the guy who posted on FB, (https://drive.google.com/file/d/13sK8-aZ52mQ_58uIdH-KFy7VEqbE8iwp/view?usp=drivesdk) $8500 into his rehab, & didn’t check if engine was seized. That was the first thing I checked, and I was scared when I did (but it was good, and with plugs in, it was hard to turn over). I was still scared not being able to do a good compression test (but I inferred difficult turning over (by hand) was due to good compression) before handing NP a huge chunk of change for all the parts I swapped. But it purrs now. I’ve got a few leaks (impeller slow-dripping ( https://drive.google.com/file/d/1StiP0YH5Ey6p0EsBUVCt6k6BVAcNa_Xi/view?usp=drivesdk), exhaust riser is leaking at new small gasket (it’s tight, but under old gasket it was pitted pretty bad, and I know I have work to do there), & there’s water coming toward the battery from the heater core. Bet my brother didnt drain that when he “winterized it” and then left it outside. Oh well, just more to fix ;) Anyone have success with ATV red gasket maker under the gasket? I think I did that on my last boat 15 years ago at the advice from the previous owner, and it held from what I remember. I know the correct thing to do would be to have it machined down flat. Anyone add JBWeld, and then grind flat? That’s done on Vanagon heads a lot (which is my other backyard mechanic experience). Thanks for advice! I’ll be looking and researching threads now ;) |
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Gary S
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Posted: May-17-2021 at 12:24am |
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Kinda though this was funny- There is a guy on FB who is a ASE tech who can't get his 94 with a carb to run right. He wants to go back to it's original induction. It has EFI decals on the boat so he figures it had to have fuel injection. Can't get a carb to run right but being a ASE tech I'll bet he'll have that Pro Tec up and running in no time
Maybe Erik can sell off his old set 
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8122pbrainard
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Posted: May-16-2021 at 8:16pm |
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Erikgundy98
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Posted: May-16-2021 at 7:57pm |
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The “spray some water on the strut”... where is the strut? Thanks! So happy with the engine progress. My son and I have been doing it together. He’s 10. All new language to him, “bilge pump”, “bilge” (then he makes the connection “ oh, the bilge pump is in the bilge!” - yep!) So, thank you for helping us through this fun process we’ve had together. |
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KENO
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Posted: May-16-2021 at 7:00pm |
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Them southern boys talk funny, but i'd imagine he meant Before. Ignore the sticker, it pertains to the old system that you took off the engine. You can time it in neutral with no issues. You should have 10 as mentioned and if you rev it up to 4000 rpm, you should top out at somewhere in the 30 to 35 BTDC range depending on the advance weights and springs in the new distributor.. If your cutlass bearing is dry, it'll take more effort to turn the prop, spray some water on the strut to get the bearing wet and see how it turns. You could have alignment issues too causing the hard turning.
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Erikgundy98
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Posted: May-16-2021 at 6:49pm |
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Maybe. The nautique parts guy (Townsend) who was helping answer my questions said first, “8-10 over top dead center.”
Is this “over” meaning ‘before’? Where the white marks on my harmonic balancer used to be (still are, but were for old system) a mark at 10 and another mark at 18, I did time it at 5, to the same side (must be Before, as you say)... But when I read the engine specs on the top of my engine, “static” (is that with engine off?) says 8-10, and 18 degrees BTDC @700rpm w/ prop engaged. I set it to 5, with engine idling around 1000rpm, then set idle to 700, and it still purrs w timing set at 5 (must be BTDC). But, should I time this with prop engaged, like the Sticker says? To what do I time it then? My prop doesnt spin very easily, In fact I really have to put muscle behind it to turn it, and transmission is in N. Is this normal? I can turn it, but it doesn’t spin easily. But it’s been 2 years since running. I don’t see a zerk fitting on prop like I see on rudder |
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KENO
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Posted: May-16-2021 at 5:11pm |
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You sure you don't mean 5 degrees BTDC or even 10 gegrees BTDC?
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Erikgundy98
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Posted: May-16-2021 at 3:49pm |
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You’re serious!!! I did! It was all your guys help that got me through!
Yes, the switch has two spade connectors on it, both connected to purple wires, and back at the starter relay and resistor, I had no power to purple. So after your (both of you) advice to check ignition switch purple wire for 12V (which I verified it had) I figured these purple wires needed to feed the relay. One hot, one not. Pulled switch, tested continuity, it didn’t have continuity when lanyard was correctly and securely installed, so I used a jumper to bypass switch, and it started and stayed running! Timing set. NautiqueParts says 5 degrees atdc, so I set it there (with electronic timing light), set idle to 650, and it starts with one bump of the key, and purrs amazing!! Thank you for all your help!!! I wouldn’t have done it without you guys! Couldn’t have done it alone. Now on to see why the blower button doesn’t stay in/on ;) |
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KENO
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Posted: May-16-2021 at 2:46pm |
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So does the sentence above mean that the engine actually ran with the key in Start or did it just turn over but not run. If it actually ran, I'd like to see where and how the switch is wired into the circuit And will ya look at that, you took a bunch of parts that came with little or no instructions and made it through the installation with a little CCF help.
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8122pbrainard
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Posted: May-16-2021 at 1:50pm |
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Erik,
Good troubleshooting. I think you found the problem. |
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Erikgundy98
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Posted: May-16-2021 at 1:24pm |
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With ignition in on position, have power to the safety lanyard switch. But, even with power to it (12V) to one side, with clip in, no power on opposite (out) post.
I assume with the clip in, it allows power to continue to ignition. But, with clip in or not, no power to out side of switch. Off to store to replace switch https://drive.google.com/file/d/1t0MHXKfbQx7aORdmjjIPzcHwW22fbXsN/view?usp=drivesdk So, the switch was bad! Engine purrs. Time to time it https://drive.google.com/file/d/1TdXa-RA2IoRO1Qkux5VBYSnC779CMLTp/view?usp=drivesdk |
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Erikgundy98
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Posted: May-16-2021 at 12:28pm |
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12V at purple wire on back of ignition when key in “run” (on) position.
Going to double check all connections, that they are in correct places. Other thoughts? I have continuity through white wires on top of transmission, have verified breaker has continuity through it, and that the resistor has continuity through it. I since there is power in the “run” position at ignition, I should then have power at purple in back.... this is what I am checking now.... |
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KENO
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Posted: May-16-2021 at 7:03am |
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It sounds like your engine starts with the key in Start but when you let the key go, it quits If you have a lanyard and it's unplugged, the engine will turn over but not start if things are wired per the diagram, since the lanyard in your case kills power to the coil no matter what position the key is in unless you have some "really creative" wiring
.Look at the "R" terminal on the back of your key switch and check that you have about 12 volts there with the key in Run. Verify that the purple wire is connected to that terminal while you're at it. If you don't have 12 volts at the "R" terminal, the switch is bad Start with that check to begin figuring this out. |
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Erikgundy98 wrote: