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"Blown" Ford 351

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-07-2021 at 7:31am
Bill

The new starter should fit and work, it just has a different place to bolt the battery cable to it.

PCM and Commander used the same long nosed Ford starter with the same 157 tooth flywheel.

Your old starter,if it was the short nosed version shouldn't have engaged the teeth on the flywheel at all due to the length difference so your new and old may have the same length nose or snout when you compare them.

Originally posted by William777 William777 wrote:

  Its "snout" is too short. This is a personal problem I've dealt with all my life, but there was always a work around.  

Now as far as your personal lifelong  "snout" issues............I think there are websites and doctors that maybe can help you out in that category Wink


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote William777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-07-2021 at 1:43pm
  That's great news Keno! I didn't know the doctors had anything for that! As far as the less crucial problem I'm having goes; the description of the new starter says the snout protrudes 2 3/8 inches into the bell housing chamber. I just measured with a tape and that's correct. The one I just took off measured 2 inches protrusion.  I'm hoping the extra 3/8 of an inch engages the teeth on the flywheel completely and passes over the ground up teeth enough to not get stuck there. I don't think an extra 3/8 of an inch is going to help me in the other department. What I'm concerned about is the circumference of the starter body itself. It seems to be much bigger than the one I just took off. Saturday morning will tell.   
1978 Martinique Ford 351 Windsor
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-07-2021 at 5:03pm
Shorty

It's not as simple as measuring the spout on your previous starter which was one of the newer smaller, more powerful .PMGR starters and comparing the length to the spout on the older style big starter

Your spout on the SFD 0071 which is what you put on earlier in the thread is about 2 inches and it works fine to start your engine. The spout on the starter you just got is about 2 3/8 inches and it works just fine too.

You have to have them side by side and look at the gear positions and mounting surfaces to see that they both work the same as far as engaging the teeth on the flywheel..

I could get some pictures later

So............it's not the length or the size that matters as long as it works for you Wink 

You might have had an issue with the gear binding on the shaft or the solenoid not functioning to make the linkage arm push the gear into engagement.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote William777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-19-2021 at 8:46pm
 OK, the new starter was longer in the snout and the gear was starting in a position closer to the flywheel. It worked great.
 The timing was not easy to set. I was paranoid about putting the boat in drive while tied to the dock but I had to do that in the end in order to get the timing set properly. I did that and it was amazing how nicely the timing dialed in with that procedure. I didn't pull the dock away nor did the boat ride up on the dock, which were the things I was envisioning happening.
 So I had the boat on the water last Sunday for 4 hours and all was well. Then yesterday I was going to pick some friends up from their dock and 30 yards from the dock the transmission flopped. It started slipping like a bad clutch on a manual auto transmission, then it gave out all together and das boat stopped moving. 
 I detached the cable and tried to shift into gear at the transmission and still no go. All I had was a little reverse, so I reversed into the dock. Somewhat embarrassing, considering I didn't know some of the people I was supposed to be giving this magical boat ride to.  It was better than being stranded on the water, though.
 So, now I get to become a Borg Warner expert. What glee.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wilhelm Hertzog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-21-2021 at 9:43am
Originally posted by William777 William777 wrote:

 
 So, now I get to become a Borg Warner expert. What glee.  


Glad another CCF'er is joining me on this journey of discovery I'm currently on...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SNobsessed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-21-2021 at 5:36pm
Originally posted by William777 William777 wrote:

 
 The timing was not easy to set. I was paranoid about putting the boat in drive while tied to the dock but I had to do that in the end in order to get the timing set properly. I did that and it was amazing how nicely the timing dialed in with that procedure. 

Sorry to hear of your tranny issue.

I am confused by the need to have the boat in gear to set timing.

Does it have an automotive distributor with vacuum advance?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MourningWood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-22-2021 at 11:29am
Agree.

Setting the idle speed in gear is one thing...but timing does not need to be in gear at all. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote William777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-22-2021 at 11:53am
Well dang, clueless in Clearlake again I guess. I thought I read that somewhere. Anyway when I did it it ran better and finally would idle below 1000. I'll check it all again soon. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SNobsessed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-22-2021 at 5:39pm
Yeah it needs to be about 600 to set timing.  Sounds like you might have a vacuum leak if you can't get it to idle down.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote William777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-24-2021 at 1:40am
After I did the Clearlake method of timing setting, it idles fine now around the 600 RPM mark. No clue. As far as the transmission goes...I tore it all down and then read ahead on this great post I found into the reassembly steps to familiarize myself with the procedure before I started myself. On the reverse clutch plate assembly it says assemble bronze then steel then bronze plates in order. My transmission only had one bronze plate in it. No other bronze and no steel. The forward clutch plates look practically new but I'll replace them anyway. Could the gap those missing plates in the reverse assembly have caused my issues? I'm going to stick the drive gear back in the dampener plate on the flywheel and see if I can turn it to check if the dampener is still intact internally. It looks fine from the outside.  Grazzi for any input.
1978 Martinique Ford 351 Windsor
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-24-2021 at 6:16am
The great post was probably the "Wouter" thread on the Mastercraft forum.

If so, his transmission was a later version and used multiple reverse plates.

Yours came with one just like you found (and forward and reverse both worked for the last 40 something years)

So...........it had nothing to do with your forward slippage

Here's a link to a manual from the time period yours was built, showing one reverse plate


page 65 of the manual talks about clutch plate combinations. 

Yours would be combination #1 in the chart, later versions were combination #10 which his transmission had. You could assemble yours with the #10 pieces and it would work They're thinner plates that when installed take up the same amount of space in the cavity as your older thick one.

If reverse was slipping too, but still got you back to the ramp, you probably have a pressure problem with the pump or pressure regulator.

If the damper plate was bad and slipping, you probably would have heard some "god awful grinding noises" as the springs in the damper were self destructing Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote William777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-24-2021 at 11:36am
Keno, that's exactly the post I was looking at. Also, thanks you for the heads up on the reverse plates. I'm currently trying to figure out how to remove the pressure regulator. Don't suppose I can test these components without having to reassemble the tranny? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote William777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-24-2021 at 1:37pm
I removed the pressure regulator and I don't know how to diagnose it. "Stuck" open would refer to some internal component of the regulator or its position in the barrel chamber it fits in. I kinda see how it works, when the shifter is moved back and forth it spins the regulator inside the barrel changing the fluid path between forward and reverse? It moves freely in the barrel. There is some kind of plunger thing inside held tight with a spring. The spring is tight. I used a bottle jack braced and compressed the spring and it moves, although this is a strong spring. Can someone explain what stuck open and stuck closed means? Thank you.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote William777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-24-2021 at 1:39pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-24-2021 at 7:59pm
The thing is a combination pressure regulator and spool valve .

The rotation of the valve lines up with ports to send oil to the forward or the reverse clutches.

The big honkim' heavy spring and piston/plunger is the pressure regulator for maintaining proper operating pressure in the transmission. Any excess pressure is bled off to the sump through the oil cooler.

You can probably tell that for one, you don't want to try taking it apart without the proper tools and since you compressed the spring and it sprung back, it's not stuck open or closed.

Open would cause low system pressures and closed would cause high pressure with no flow through the cooler.

Other things like the clutch plates or the pump are a lot more likely to be your problem than a malfunctioning regulator. They're pretty bullet proof.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote William777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Yesterday at 1:46pm
Hello from drive plate hell. The one I took off the boat is shot I believe. The sprocket in the middle is loose and wiggly. I'm gambling that it is the cause of the issues I'm having. There were some pops and slips before the drive went out completely, a sound this thing could make if it was failing. Everything inside the transmission looked new except for some wear on the reverse clutch plate. So, I'm trying to replace the drive plate. I apparently bought the wrong one. I tried to research this all myself but I'm afraid of buying another wrong one. I found part R14001 for $218 (it looks more like the original plate off the boat) on one site that I have in my shopping cart (Nautique Parts Site). The one I bought is on the left in the following picture.(bought from ebasicmarine) It's a DA 106. The DA 106A was not available and I was told the 106 could be cut down to clear the starter but the bolt holes don't line up in any way with the flywheel. The drive plate on the right in the pic is the original. My engine is a Commander with the Borg Warner 71C. Guidance please?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote William777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Yesterday at 1:48pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote William777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Yesterday at 1:55pm
This is the drive plate in the shopping cart on the Nautique site. I'm worried because it's called  "PCM" R140001. It states on the site that it's intended for the Borg Warner transmission that I have. But, PCM is not the marinizer I have correct? Mine is Commander. Does this matter in the case of this drive plate? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Yesterday at 1:57pm
Originally posted by William777 William777 wrote:

Guidance please?

Keep the DA-106 and empty your shopping cart right now Wink  You're only in purgatory

If you slide and wiggle the plate around enough, you'll find that 3 holes in the plate will line up with 3 holes in the flywheel and you install it with only 3 bolts. It works fine with just 3.

You'll have to trim it to fit.

Find the right fit first before trimming so that you don't trim it wrong and cut through the wrong holes or anything like that. Use a picture of the pre trimmed106A as a guide

Commander or PCM doesn't matter.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Yesterday at 2:16pm
Here's a picture

Follow the "not very artistic" purple lines to the 3 right holes for mounting the plate to your Ford flywheel Wink

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote William777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Yesterday at 2:23pm
OK, I'll wiggle it some more, that sometimes helps with my other problem. I can't believe you have a drawing of that flywheel with the holes marked Keno! That's impressive. Ok, we'll see this Saturday. Thank you! 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Yesterday at 2:26pm
Originally posted by William777 William777 wrote:

OK, I'll wiggle it some more, that sometimes helps with my other problem. I can't believe you have a drawing of that flywheel with the holes marked Keno! That's impressive. Ok, we'll see this Saturday. Thank you! 

I didn't until about 10 minutes ago Wink

Now about that other problem,,,,,,,,,,,um, well nevermind
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote swilliams Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Yesterday at 5:41pm
Nice save Ken!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Duane in Indy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Yesterday at 9:19pm
As always Ken, Nice work.  Now go and reinstall your damper plate.  My manual has drawings to make the special tools needed to do rebuild.  Pres/Rel valve is tricky and requires special tool to disassemble safely.
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