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Transmission rotation right after rebuild. |
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jhersey29 
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Joined: February-20-2014 Location: Colorado Status: Offline Points: 272 |
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 Topic: Transmission rotation right after rebuild.Posted: January-14-2015 at 1:00pm |
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I've got the engine back in the boat after rebuilding and aligned it yesterday. I noticed when I had the transmission in gear and turned the crank by hand(engine is half together) the drive shaft did not rotate. I still don't have oil in the transmission. I still have to hook up the oil cooler and brackets. Is this normal? Does it require oil to rotate? I'm just rotating the engine a few times while watching the valves on piston 1 to figure out which rotation of the motor is the correct rotation so I don't start with the dizzy 180 out. Still need to figure this process out as well. Harmonic Balancer at tdc after the intake valve opens would be the next time it fires?
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TRBenj
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Posted: January-14-2015 at 1:10pm |
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The transmission is hydraulic... It needs fluid and pressure (rpm) to engage the clutches and turn the output shaft. Can't do that without the engine running. So that'll never a provide a useful clue as to direction of rotation.
You just had the engine rebuilt and you don't know which way it is supposed to spin? The dizzy spins counterclockwise regardless of rotation. Being 180 out would be the result of starting the plug wire order with #1 at tdc on the exhaust stroke instead of the compression stroke. |
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jhersey29
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Posted: January-14-2015 at 1:24pm |
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I know what way it spins that is pretty easy but most thing I read on the internet with getting the dizzy set right after a rebuild is to just simply put it in and if it doesn't start or backfires your 180 out. That isn't what I wanted to do. I'd rather watch the valves and do it right instead of take a 50 50 roll of the dice. Ford forums have lots of bad advice and lots of inconsistency's. My question was about when it fires relative to the valve openings. Thinking... Piston is at tdc, rotate engine, exhaust valve opens and exhaust air is expelled, keep rotating, intake valve opens air enters cylinder, intake valve closes, next tdc is clean compressed air that would get spark with gas etc. All relative to Timing, etc.
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TRBenj
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Posted: January-14-2015 at 1:33pm |
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Put the engine at TDC on the compression stroke (#1). Whichever post the rotor is pointing towards, put the #1 plug wire on it. Follow the firing order around counter clockwise. That should be close enough for the engine to start.
If you forget to make sure the engine is on the compression stroke, you have a 50/50 chance of being 180 out. Once the cam is broken in, set the timing with a light. |
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8122pbrainard
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Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Posted: January-14-2015 at 2:48pm |
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Jim,
Tim is absolutely correct. Follow his advice as well as others on CCfan and not some Ford site you found on line!  Besides, They know nothing about engine rotation! 
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JoeinNY
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Posted: January-14-2015 at 3:22pm |
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Yes your thinking is fine, you want to be TDC on the compression stroke, the compression stroke is the one right after the intake stroke and the intake stroke is the one which the intake valve opens then closes.
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mamigacz
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Joined: June-08-2014 Location: Wisconsin Status: Offline Points: 96 |
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Posted: January-15-2015 at 9:37am |
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If the valve covers are installed and you have a compression tester, you can use the compression tester as a tool to determine the compression stroke (without removing the valve cover).
Install the compression tester on the #1 plug hole. As the engine approaches TDC the gauge should read noticeable compression. If the cam is 180 degrees off, little to no compression will be seen on the gauge. Make sure to release the pressure in the gauge before the piston approached TDC. |
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SNobsessed
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Posted: January-15-2015 at 9:47am |
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Or put your thumb over the spark plug hole while rotating the crank slowly.
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“Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.”
Ben Franklin |
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baitkiller
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Posted: January-15-2015 at 10:06am |
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Opposing cylinder method is what I have used for eons. Every cylinder has a brother 180* off the stroke. On a Chevy for example when 6 is rocking, 1 is knocking.
This means that when you see both rockers moving at the same time on one cylinder, the opposing cylinder is firing. Super simple way to run the valves on any engine without having to bar it over several times. Very handy on large diesel plants where baring it over aint exactly a one handed operation and its super accurate to establish static timing or valve lash. One trip through the order and your done. All you need to know is the firing order. When running valves on a V-8 I draw a clock face with the firing order. (picture a dizzy cap) Draw lines straight across the clock face and you have opposing pairs readily identifiable and a means of keeping track of where you are in the process. Sounds complicated but for me its second nature. |
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Jesus was a bare-footer.............
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JPASS
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Posted: January-15-2015 at 11:12am |
That's the way I did it. Quite simple and it works. |
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'92 Correctcraft Ski Nautique
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JoeinNY
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Posted: January-15-2015 at 11:26am |
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95 percent of the time the ol finger over the spark plug trick works great, it can be a bit tricky if you are on your own in the shop to work the breaker bar and keep a good seal - and my thumb just barely covers up the old style bigger holes.
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phatsat67
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Posted: January-15-2015 at 11:30am |
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That's always what I do.
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81nautique
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Posted: January-15-2015 at 11:41am |
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Yikes so Joe needs bigger thumbs or smaller holes! LOL.
yes to all the ways above to find TDC on Compression stroke, with valve covers off I just look for both valves closed. Also if this is new motor and needs to be broken in it's important that you get this set before you start cranking that thing over with trial and error. What I've started doing to get my timing set is once I know I'm on TDC compression stroke of #1 I hook up a timing light to #1. manually rotate the motor with a breaker bar on the crank nut to whatever timing you want on the balancer, presumably 8 before TDC. Then loosen the nut on the distributor, While holding the timing light on move the dizzy either direction, when the timing light lights you are dead set on the initial timing you have the pointer pointing to and the motor should fire right up and run well enough for break in. Once broken in go back and check /set your timing to desired. |
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phatsat67
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Posted: January-15-2015 at 1:45pm |
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Alan, I've never thought of doing it that way! Assuming you have the 1 on TDC compression that would result in never installing a Dizzy 180 out. Thanks for that idea Sir.
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81nautique
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Posted: January-15-2015 at 1:54pm |
I do that Zach and spray carb cleaner (not Starting fluid) down the throat until the fuel pump catches up and the motor is running in a matter of seconds and it should run at break in rpm without you having to touch it. If it doesn't fire instantly you got something wrong, it's amazing you watch all these car shows where guys are cranking and cranking on brand new motors and they can't get them started. Popping and farting because they didn't set the timing, there is no guessing required. The a$$ monkeys ground down a cam on a Ford rebuild in one episode. CCfan needs it's own reality show!!! |
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phatsat67
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Posted: January-15-2015 at 1:59pm |
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I know!!!!! That drives me up a wall. I make sure 100% of everything is right before I crank a new motor. Marine carbs suck because they have J tubes but I fully fill bowls at first start up with fuel as well on auto stuff. I want it to crank and run first try.
The 351 started that way when I first cranked it as did my 67 way back when. Double and triple check it all then crank it. Nothing sweeter than hearing something brand new start and run like it should the first try. I either snort carb cleaner or just a splash of gasoline because I can't stand cranking long enough for the fuel pump to fill the bowls. I've thought of making a small electric 12v pump with a soft line I can screw into the fuel inlets on the Holley to prime the bowls on everything I install. Our 67 R/T 440 car was pretty bare bones in the carburetor department and ran like a sewing machine so I would just use that car to test fire rebuild and new carburetors because it was a cake swap. |
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Gary S
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Posted: January-15-2015 at 3:53pm |
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That's all just fine but what if your big name cam grinder puts the wrong firing order on the cam card
 when I did the HM I installed it using a degree wheel but other than checking that who would ever think to check the firing order? Lucky for me it didn't get ruined.
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81nautique
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Posted: January-15-2015 at 4:44pm |
See, another reason we need our own reality show! Never a dull moment 
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quinner
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Posted: January-15-2015 at 5:48pm |
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And what would we call it "lot's of inboards and not enough wood"?
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phatsat67
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Posted: January-15-2015 at 6:06pm |
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Oh, I think it would be inboards and not enough Tuna haha.
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Gary S
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Posted: January-15-2015 at 6:22pm |
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How about I thought I got a deal,all I got was the shaft?
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Jonny Quest
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Posted: January-16-2015 at 12:25am |
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My method for finding TDC came from Summit Racing:
Instructional Video Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RENhHI9n65I Tool is found here: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-900189/overview/ Worked great. JQ (sorry for not using the proper "link" command. I'ts above my pay-grade) |
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Current
2003 Ski Nautique 206 Limited Previous 2001 Ski Nautique Open Bow 1994 Ski Nautique Open Bow Aqua skiing, ergo sum |
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SNobsessed wrote: