99 SN GT40 Fuel Supply |
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slmskrs
Gold Member Joined: January-03-2012 Location: SF bay area, CA Status: Offline Points: 522 |
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I don't have a wiring diagram in front of me so I forgot what the wire at the bottom of the picture is (dead end looking larger gray plug). However, the top plug you are referring to is also needed with the STO to plug into the code reader that I have (takes both plugs). The wire on the top does not fit into the STO plug, it just dangles there and is used for reading codes. I don't know where you'd get a new STO plug; don't know if an auto parts place would carry them. But worst case you should be able to go to a Ford dealer and get one. It is the standard plug used for reading codes up through '97 or so on Fords, so they have to be out there. Or just go to a junk yard; there have to be plenty around. |
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Gordon '97 Ski Nautique, GT40
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AMB
Groupie Joined: April-29-2012 Location: NW Ohio Status: Offline Points: 67 |
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I went back out and put the Test Connector and STO back together, and saw how the small gray lead had to be put into the Test Connector. the pumps would not prime, even with wiggling. I swapped out the relay, as I have two extras and so I think my problem seems to be the Test Connector. I jumped the STO again, and the pump ran fine.
I would have liked to run the boat with the STO jumped, but it was raining and getting late. Gordon - I couldn't see if the smaller gray plug actually plugged into any clips or anything, but there are two different shaped grooves on the exterior of it, and one way it went on like it was going to stay in there, and the other way was pretty loose. There is an exposed metal female type fitting, so I figured it was probably good to at least stick it up in the housing to keep it out of the elements. I will call around tomorrow for the Test Connector. Seems like that is not getting the signal crossed over from the STO connector. Does this sound right? Thanks |
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slmskrs
Gold Member Joined: January-03-2012 Location: SF bay area, CA Status: Offline Points: 522 |
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Funny, my lawn and hedge just love my exhaust water. Probably the best area of the lawn! Maybe all those hydrocarbon minerals... Looks like you may have found the problem. The things that still don't make sense to me are: 1. consistent frequency of the loping 2. no PSI with the engine running (albeit loping) (I'd still do what Mark said and pull the valve stem out if the symptoms persist) |
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Gordon '97 Ski Nautique, GT40
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Bri892001
Grand Poobah Joined: September-27-2008 Location: Boston MA Status: Offline Points: 4945 |
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That smaller grey plug just may be your SPOUT Connector. Did it's being in place or not in place have any effect on your loping? It's related to distributor timing. |
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lewy2001
Grand Poobah Joined: March-19-2008 Location: NSW Australia Status: Offline Points: 2234 |
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Al the black shell marked EEC test that the connector plugs into is just for storage of STO and STI connectors the loose wire on the end is the STI. I would just clean the current STO connectors with contact cleaner. Very unlikely the STO connector would need replacing. If jumpering the STO connector did not start the pumps that means either the circuit for the EEC or fuel relay is not being completed. You may need to get that multimeter out and start using it to measure voltages at both relay connectors. Your problem is intermittent because it worked the second time you tried. Now wiggle the connectors when the pumps are running. |
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If you're going through hell, keep going
89 Ski <a href="http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=5685" ta |
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AMB
Groupie Joined: April-29-2012 Location: NW Ohio Status: Offline Points: 67 |
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Well I am really bummed now. I took off the EEC Test Connector, thinking that there was series of connectors in there that the STO plugged into, and zilch. It is just a housing to keep the STO out of the weather. Might as well put duct tape over the STO.
Why did my fuel pumps prime when I jiggled the STO? It ran when jumping the STO, so that tells me the pumps work and put pressure out consistently when power gets to them. The only thing I think I can do next to make sure the pumps are okay is to start the boat in the driveway with the STO jumped. If it runs like a champ, then fuel pumps should be okay. Leaving what? A bum wire somewhere before the pump? Does the STO utilize the same wires to the pumps? What is it bypassing? Next steps?? From the wiring schematic, going backward from the low pressure pump, there is a fuel relay, a 20Amp fuse, tied in with the 60Amp fuse, then goes through a 10-way connector, and then a 20Amp fuse, then to the ignition switch. The Service Manual says that if I ground the STO and the pump works, it says to service the open circuit between the fuel pump relay and the ECA. What? The only thing between the ECA and the Relay is a green yellow wire leaving the relay and attaching to the ECA. Is the manual saying that this is probably a bad connection? UNCLE! |
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AMB
Groupie Joined: April-29-2012 Location: NW Ohio Status: Offline Points: 67 |
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Lewy, the pumps ran every time I jumped the STO. They happened to prime after I bumped the STO, which I could not get to repeat after the intial priming. As it is now, the pumps are not priming with key on.
I am just not sure what system is being bypassed by jumping the STO. That isn't showing up on the wiring diagram I am looking at. Maybe there is another one that shows the STO wire going around the relays, or something... That would help make it a little more clear to me what I am getting around, as that is likely what is not working correctly. Thanks |
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slmskrs
Gold Member Joined: January-03-2012 Location: SF bay area, CA Status: Offline Points: 522 |
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The spout connector is near the distributor (actually near the oil fill cap (I pulled my distributor recently so used the spout connector when setting my timing). The one you're talking about looks the same but it is something else (I just can't remember what). |
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Gordon '97 Ski Nautique, GT40
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slmskrs
Gold Member Joined: January-03-2012 Location: SF bay area, CA Status: Offline Points: 522 |
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Since the pumps ran when you jumped the STO (you had pressure and could hear the fuel splashing), I can almost guarantee if start it when jumped, it will run perfectly. You're getting close. Just keep moving backwards, testing voltage. The fact that it is not priming when you turn the key on, that is actually a "good" thing since it is better to be happening (or in this case not happening) all the time rather than intermittent. I don't have the wiring diagram, but having it not prime now is good for troubleshooting. Hang in there! |
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Gordon '97 Ski Nautique, GT40
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lewy2001
Grand Poobah Joined: March-19-2008 Location: NSW Australia Status: Offline Points: 2234 |
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Al like Gordon said you are getting closer to a resolution.
Need to confirm some of your symptoms. 1. You said that the pumps run every time you jump the STO connector to ground? 2. The fuel pumps run intermittently but mostly do not go through the prime cycle when the ignition is switched on? If the answer to the above is yes in both cases. Then the computer is not providing the earth that is required to start the fuel pumps for prime cycle. All jumpering the STO connector to earth does is provide the earth that the computer normally supplies from pin 52 of ECA 60 pin connector to turn on the pumps.(see Self Test Circuit diagram on page 279 of GT40 manual) The problem is either a broken wire in the harness, bad connection at 60 pin connector or fuel pump relay connector "86". The bad news is it could also be the computer itself. But we hope it is the previous. Disconnect the battery terminal. Remove the 60 pin connector from ECA and clean all pins with contact cleaner paying special attention to pin 52 make sure there is no pushed in or damaged pins. There is a 10mm 3/8" bolt seating that connector to the computer housing. Page 285 of GT40 manual has the pin out for this 60 pin connector. Check for continuity of wire from fuel pump relay connector "86" to pin 52 of ECA connector. Diagram states it as blue/orange wire. I will confirm colour tomorrow in daylight on my relay and STO connector as some of the colours seem to vary from the diagram to what I have on my engine. Check that pin 40 and 60 of the ECA connector are short to ground. Continuity or short is zero ohms or close to it. If you put both leads of your meter together that is short. Take note of that reading as it is the reading you want when testing. (have meter on lowest ohms range) |
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If you're going through hell, keep going
89 Ski <a href="http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=5685" ta |
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AMB
Groupie Joined: April-29-2012 Location: NW Ohio Status: Offline Points: 67 |
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AMB
Groupie Joined: April-29-2012 Location: NW Ohio Status: Offline Points: 67 |
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I am looking at the ECA. Do I need to cut the tie strap on the rubber boot to reveal the 60 pin locations or is there another way? I took the 4 screws out that hold the ECM on the frame, and by the way, with the key on, the Son of a Gun pumps are priming. |
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lewy2001
Grand Poobah Joined: March-19-2008 Location: NSW Australia Status: Offline Points: 2234 |
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Al confirmed it is a blue wire with orange tracer although it is a cross between blue and a dark green.
PRIME CYCLE The prime of the pumps only occurs for a few seconds when the ignition is first turned on. i.e. The computer supplies the earth on pin 52 to fuel pump relay to start pumps for a short period on initial power on. This makes sure there is fuel available and pressurised at rail for starting. It is part of the computers program. Once the engine is started the computer will turn the pumps on all the time by supplying that earth to the fuel pump relay. If your fuel pressure gauge readings were correct in the video. The pumps were obviously stopping. It does sound like a bad connection or wiring problem because you bumped the wiring harness at STO and they started. This does not necessarily mean it was the STO as the fault could be further down in the wiring harness or connectors. Now that you have been moving these wires more this bad connection has got worse. Check the continuity of the circuit as I mentioned in previous post and get back to us. |
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If you're going through hell, keep going
89 Ski <a href="http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=5685" ta |
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lewy2001
Grand Poobah Joined: March-19-2008 Location: NSW Australia Status: Offline Points: 2234 |
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Al you must of been posting as I was out checking wiring colour. You don't need to remove the computer housing from bracket. But you do have to cut that cable tie on bottom and push the rubber boot back to reveal the 10mm 3/8 retaining bolt I mentioned previously. Undo this bolt and the 60pin connector will come off.
Sure sounds like a bad wiring connection problem as you have now disturbed the harness and connectors and it is supplying earth for prime cycle again. If still having problems let me know and I will go out to boat and snap a picture of 60 pin connector removal. |
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If you're going through hell, keep going
89 Ski <a href="http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=5685" ta |
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Bri892001
Grand Poobah Joined: September-27-2008 Location: Boston MA Status: Offline Points: 4945 |
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Lewy, when you say "earth", that means "ground" right? Like the negative side of the connection?
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AMB
Groupie Joined: April-29-2012 Location: NW Ohio Status: Offline Points: 67 |
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Here is the 60-Pin and I will try to post a pic of the female connector as well.
The whitish substance is a grease or lube. Basically, looks ok to me..?? |
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M3Fan
Grand Poobah Joined: October-22-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3185 |
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Slight correction if I recall correctly- The computer turns the pumps on and they stay on as long as they get a signal from the CPS. So, the pumps being on are not a timed priming event, they are just on because the engine is on and them turning off after a second is an exception to the rule that only occurs because the computer has not sensed crankshaft revolution. |
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2000 SN GT40 w/99 Graphics/Gel
2016 SN 200 OB 5.3L DI https://forum.fifteenoff.com |
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lewy2001
Grand Poobah Joined: March-19-2008 Location: NSW Australia Status: Offline Points: 2234 |
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Joel sort of but really just semantics. The computer grounds pin 52 if it does not get a PIP signal in 1-2 secs it will shut down the pumps. So it is really part of the computer program.
Al, hard to tell from picture but it does look OK assuming that the white substance is dielectric grease and not oxidisation. Earth, ground and negative (-ve) are the same thing in a 12 volt DC (direct current) negative ground system. While you have it apart I would clean with contact cleaner and reapply dielectric grease. Do the continuity tests first though. |
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If you're going through hell, keep going
89 Ski <a href="http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=5685" ta |
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AMB
Groupie Joined: April-29-2012 Location: NW Ohio Status: Offline Points: 67 |
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@Lewy, to test 60 and 40 pin to ground, how do I test that?
I understand checking 86 to 52. Just watched a video on what to set the voltmeter on and how to check for continuity. So a little slow on the electrical testing deal... Thanks for the help. Just bare with me, I am pushing new limits.. |
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AMB
Groupie Joined: April-29-2012 Location: NW Ohio Status: Offline Points: 67 |
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Ok, tested continuity from relay to 52 and no problems. Meter went to 0. Then checked 60 and 40, each going to a ground and they went to 0. Was that the correct way to test?
I am just wondering if one of the breakers is having a bad connection. It seemed like jiggling stuff around back there and I started the pumps. I replaced the lowest amp breaker weeks ago, (I think it is 12.5) as the original was sort of stuck. When I tapped on it, the pump primed. So maybe somthing else on the panel? All connections including the one I replaced have liquid rubber sealer on them, so hard to tell if the connections are bad. Where is the 20 amp and 60 amp breakers, along with 10-way switch? Then there is a 20 amp after ignition switch. I have a 15 and 50 amp breaker mounted above the 12.5 amp breaker, is the book referring to those, but I have different amp breakers? These are the red buttons mounted on the plate at back of engine. Thanks! AB |
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lewy2001
Grand Poobah Joined: March-19-2008 Location: NSW Australia Status: Offline Points: 2234 |
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That is right zero(0) ohms or close to it is good.
Because this problem is intermittent and looks to be affected by wiring loom movement. You will need two sets of hands or multimeter leads with clips. While one person is holding the leads on pin 52 and fuel pump relay "86". Get the other person to wiggle the loom while you keep good contact with meter leads. You could use the earth lead you made up for the STO jumper at the fuel pump relay end with the alligator clip to one meter lead probe. At the ECA 60 pin connector you will have to just hold the meter probe. Making sure your meter leads are making good contact if the meter ohm reading increases or goes open circuit (infinity is 1---- reading). You have a problem with a broken wire in the loom. Checking pins 40 and 60 to ground was just to make sure the computer was getting a good earth. Check and clean the two battery earthing points at rear of engine anyway if you have not already done so. Almost there Al hang in. |
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If you're going through hell, keep going
89 Ski <a href="http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=5685" ta |
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AMB
Groupie Joined: April-29-2012 Location: NW Ohio Status: Offline Points: 67 |
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My helper is in bed already, so I guess I will call it a night.
I understand what you are saying, so need to wrestle up another meter, as I have 3 but only one seems to be working. Maybe I blew the fuse in them or they have a loose wire too! I am looking over the manual and there are quite a few tests to make, but first I will have to figure out how to use the meter. There are a few good youtube vids out there, but they are slightly different than my meter, and my multi purpose meter, which is new, doesn't seem to be working (or more likely I am not using the right plug ins and settings). Sure glad the weather is still not so hot! thanks for all the help. I feel like I am getting somewhere, even though your signature tagline sums it up. |
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lewy2001
Grand Poobah Joined: March-19-2008 Location: NSW Australia Status: Offline Points: 2234 |
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Al the 60amp(Main), 20amp(Fuel Pump) and 12.5amp(EEC Computer) breakers are the red buttons on computer bracket. You cannot press them in (reset) unless they pop due to excessive current flow. The 20amp breaker in manual was superseded by the 15amp breaker in later PCM GT40 models(FCC). The circuit breaker terminals have all been coated with red liquid insulation.
50? sure it does not say 60? Ten way switch? you mean the 10 way connector which is the heavy wiring loom that goes back to the dash area (item 7 on Fuel pump diagram). The 20amp fuse marked as 8 in wiring diagram is the main ignition breaker on dash. This is all the power side of circuit and is working fine. It was proven by the pumps running consistently whenever you grounded the STO connector. That is for the pumps to run power had to be getting through both relays and the rest of the circuit. You did give the loom a wiggle while that STO jumper was in place and the pumps kept running right? Al don't get side tracked yet get back to that continuity check of fuel pump relay earth wire (blue/orange) with wiring loom being wiggled. |
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If you're going through hell, keep going
89 Ski <a href="http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=5685" ta |
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AMB
Groupie Joined: April-29-2012 Location: NW Ohio Status: Offline Points: 67 |
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No, I didn't wiggle anything when I had the STO jumped. That sounds like something I maybe shoulda tried... Well, the ECM is apart and I will continue testing tomorrow.
What you say about the power side makes sense when I stop and think about it. It may say 60, it is getting late! I know it is not 20 though, so I must have one of the newer FCC setups.. Mine is real new, in like 2 months old! Springing that leak is still getting me ticked, as that was no where near the problem, and $450!! Thanks AB |
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lewy2001
Grand Poobah Joined: March-19-2008 Location: NSW Australia Status: Offline Points: 2234 |
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$450 for a new FCC hope that included the high pressure pump and filter.
The meter will probably have a 9V battery in it, flat battery? Make sure you plug the leads into the correct terminals on meter for what you are trying to measure. Post a picture of your meter to confirm. Continue with testing of the continuity of fuel pump earth wire while jiggling the wiring. If it tests OK. Clean both sides of 60pin ECM computer connector, reapply dielectric grease to female side of connector. You only need to do it on the used pins. It is obvious which pins are used when looking at female side. Then reconnect everything and put the jumper back on STO and with pumps running do the wiggle test on all wiring to relays ECM and tap wiring on back of cct breakers. If the pumps stop at any time take note of what was being jiggled and go from there. |
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If you're going through hell, keep going
89 Ski <a href="http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=5685" ta |
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AMB
Groupie Joined: April-29-2012 Location: NW Ohio Status: Offline Points: 67 |
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Yes, that price included the high pump and filter. They don't make the old black screw on style. One of the fittings on the new FCC was not fitted to the older fuel line going up the rail, but you can take out one from the old style and change it out.
I will chase some more wires tonight. Thanks AB |
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east tx skier
Senior Member Joined: August-22-2006 Location: Tyler, TX Status: Offline Points: 248 |
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Since I haven't seen it mention yet, I'll tell you what I think it is.
Have you checked (or just replaced) your antisiphon valve on the fuel feed line on top of the tank. My boat did this exact same thing 2 years ago and that was the fix. It just did it again last week. I pulled it off while on the water and worked the little ball around a bit and it ran fine after that for another couple of sets before gumming up again. My boat sat a lot last year due to the drought. And the ethanol blended fuel just gets that much more time to gum up this little $13 part. I have mentioned this in several thread, but your symptoms are 100% identical to what I have experienced and the antisiphon has been the culprit each time in my case. |
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M3Fan
Grand Poobah Joined: October-22-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3185 |
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Oh- it's YOU! AB from TWSF? Nice to see you here! That really sucks about the old FCC parts not being offered anymore, but it must prove that the old design was flawed with that epoxy wire plug thing and not worth making parts for. |
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2000 SN GT40 w/99 Graphics/Gel
2016 SN 200 OB 5.3L DI https://forum.fifteenoff.com |
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east tx skier
Senior Member Joined: August-22-2006 Location: Tyler, TX Status: Offline Points: 248 |
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Putting 2 and 2 together. Sorry, AB, you've heard my antisiphon woes already.
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AMB
Groupie Joined: April-29-2012 Location: NW Ohio Status: Offline Points: 67 |
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Yep its AB from the WSF etc...
Texas, at the onset of the problem, the pumps primed, so I thought of that antisiphon valve, filter, high pressue pump, etc.. I swapped out the asv with my spare. I take them off and blow electrical parts cleaner in there or braker cleaner, and no impact on the problem, which appears to be a loose wire or bad ground on something at this point. Any pump priming is just random. |
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