Tranny Chatter |
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Robb
Senior Member Joined: July-06-2010 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 185 |
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Posted: July-11-2010 at 12:22am |
I purchased a '74 Martinique a few weeks ago and had it out for the first time over July 4th weekend. The boat ran great, and I did not notice any problems until going to take it out of the water at the end of the weekend. When I shifted into reverse and gave it a bit of throttle, it would make a chattering noise and then the engine would stall. This happened a few more times until I was able to use forward gear to get it on the trailer.
I fired up the boat this weekend in the garage to try and figure out the problem and found that the noise seems to be definitely coming from the transmission, and it is more of a chatter than a grinding noise and seems worse in reverse than in forward gear. I guess my luck didn't last very long...........am I looking at a rebuild job? My kids will be disappointed if I am unable to get this turned around in a couple of weeks before our week at the lake. My gut tells me they're going to be upset. |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Rob,
First, never run the boat out of the water. You need to lubricate the cutlass bearing as it's water lubricated. The first thing I would check is the dampner plate. It's the flex coupling between the engine and the trans. |
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Robb
Senior Member Joined: July-06-2010 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 185 |
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Okay, that makes sense to me. Can this somehow be checked without pulling everything out, and if so, what exactly am I looking for besides obvious broken pieces?
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SNobsessed
Grand Poobah Joined: October-21-2007 Location: IA Status: Offline Points: 7102 |
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Rob - You have to pull the tranny to get to the damper plate. Your description fits the failure mode well so it is a likely cause.
The tranny can be removed in less than 2 hours (if you're motivated). The damper plate has a finite life & should be replaced 'while you are in there'. Call Eric Lavine @ Fantastic Finish Marine for procurement of the replacement part plus advice on installation. Good luck! |
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“Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.”
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Robb
Senior Member Joined: July-06-2010 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 185 |
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Thanks so much for the insight guys - I feel encouraged to say the least. As a "newbie" the learning curve is obviously very steep, but I am very eager to learn from the experts, but please pardon my ignorance (in advance) regarding what most of you out there would consider common knowledge. I am simply amazed at the time and effort a lot of you put into answering others' questions - that's truly awesome!!
One more question on this issue..............are there other parts that make sense to replace while the tranny is out? I don't have a ton of cash to pour into the boat at this point, but if there are some "no brainners" to consider, I guess definitely need to take these into consideration. Again, I am very grateful for the feedback and look forward to learning more from all of you out there. Robb |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Robb,
As long as you find the problem to be the dampner plate and the trans is ok, then that's all that's needed. Pull the bell housing, take a look and report back. |
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eric lavine
Grand Poobah Joined: August-13-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 13413 |
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tomatoe, tamotoe??? i would say short term repair would be replacing damper....any more history?
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"the things you own will start to own you"
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Robb
Senior Member Joined: July-06-2010 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 185 |
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Will do. Any idea on where to find good instructions on how to remove the trans from the engine? It doesn't look complicated, but I really don't want to screw anything up and make more work for myself.
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Robb
Senior Member Joined: July-06-2010 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 185 |
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Sorry Eric - posted my last reply before seeing yours.
Prior history is pretty vague, but my sense from the previous owner was that nothing had ever been done to the trans. The hour meter was broken at 939 hrs prior to the owner I bought the boat from. Rough estimates put the boat somewhere between a min. of 1500 and a max. of 2000 hours. What would a damper cost? I looked on your website, but no prices were available. I really need to get my hands on removal instructions so I can get it out soon to verify the problem. Thanks, Robb |
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behindpropeller
Platinum Member Joined: July-31-2006 Status: Offline Points: 1810 |
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rebuild the tranny while you have it apart.
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Robb,
With that many estimated hours on the boat, it may be wise to consider sending the trans to Eric and have him freshen it up. I'd hate to see you put a new dampner in and then have the trans go on you. Pulling the trans/bell housing is pretty simple. If you don't have access to a engine hoist to tilt the aft end of the engine up, two small bottle jacks under the exhaust manifolds work great. Disconnect the prop shaft coupling. Loosen the front engine mounts so the engine will pivot on them. Disconnect the rear mounts and jack the engine up. It doesn't take much to get the clearance needed to pull the trans along with the bell housing. |
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Robb
Senior Member Joined: July-06-2010 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 185 |
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That's kind of what I thought everyone would say. I may have to risk it and rebuild it later......I've got 4 days at the lake starting on the 24th, and then I will be gone the entire month of Aug. and part of Sept. The boat won't be used while I'm away. I knew I'd have limited time with the boat this season, but any time spent in a CC is well worth it.
A few more questions: 1) I assume it is necessary to drain the trans first? 2) Do I need to loosen the coupler flange on the prop shaft itself and move it back in order to clear it when pivoting the engine? 3) Starter needs to come off too? Again, pardon my ignorance. Thanks. |
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SNobsessed
Grand Poobah Joined: October-21-2007 Location: IA Status: Offline Points: 7102 |
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1) No
2) No just push the shaft back. - But you probably will also have to loosen the safety collar (ring next to the packing gland) 3) Starter needs to come off (don't forget to unhook the battery 1st). Also there might be a cover plate under the bellhousing that needs to come off. Take some photos of the cable routing, etc, so you get it back together the same way. 2 weeks is a long time to remember 'how the clip goes on'. An item good to replace during this repair is the shaft gland packing material. I recommend the Gortex type. You can get it from Correct Parts, or maybe from Eric. |
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“Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.”
Ben Franklin |
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Robb
Senior Member Joined: July-06-2010 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 185 |
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Thanks. I managed to get everything done. The prop shaft could just be pushed back out of the way, and I didn't drain the trans, I just left all hoses intact. I was simply going to pull the trans out first, and then the bell housing, but I can't seem to "crack" it loose from the bell housing without prying somewhere I shouldn't. Is this normal? If taking the bell housing with the trans is the easiest, I will definitely do it. How do I support everything when it comes apart? Just muscle power or block it up or......?
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Robb,
You need to remove the bell housing to change out the dampner plus as you have found out, the trans likes to stick in the housing. It's got a piloted step that is tight and sometimes even gets corroded. Prying is easier on the bench. |
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Robb
Senior Member Joined: July-06-2010 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 185 |
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Okay. Trans and bell housing are out. A quick inspection did not show any obvious signs of damper failure, however, I did find a loose "foreign" component lying in the housing that could be the culprit making the noise. The object looks like a bushing of some sort. It's approx. 1" long and .5" in diameter and looks like brass. I didn't measure it as I had to leave. When I get back, I will investigate further. I know the previous owner had recently rebuilt the starter and was wondering if this might have gotten inside then.
Does this part belong somewhere? I took pictures and will have to figure out how to post later. |
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Robb
Senior Member Joined: July-06-2010 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 185 |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Rob,
Kiss the dampener good bye!It's trash!! with that much rust in your're bell housing, it's gone. The problem with a dampner is it's very hard to tell if it'd good or bad. Spring compression and such which is the major issue with a dampner, (there's not a way to check it out but, since they are so cheap, drop a new one in). Ok, they put the cheap one in. (i can tell from the picture plus I know some of CC's "tactics!!) Trust me as well as Eric and go with the Sachs brand!! |
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Robb
Senior Member Joined: July-06-2010 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 185 |
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I agree, and I will get one ordered. The part I found lying in the hsg was the oil lite starter shaft bushing that most likely is supposed to be a light press into the starter housing. Anyway, cleaned the shaft, bore and bushing, added a bit of Loctite, and all should be well.
I'm not so convinced now that the damper is the problem. The concern I have now is with the amount of endplay that I am seeing in the input shaft. Best I can measure is approx. .075" without a dial indicator. Does anyone know what it should be? When I move it back and forth, it sure seems to me that this could be the chatter that I am hearing. Thinking of trying to rebuild now, but I'm not sure what I'm in for as far as what has to be replaced. I've seen assembly drawings, but no parts list anywhere. What's all included with a rebuild?? Sorry for all the questions, just trying to get my head wrapped around all this to make a decision quickly and get parts ordered. Robb |
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eric lavine
Grand Poobah Joined: August-13-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 13413 |
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very normal for alot of endplay, i havnt seen a damper that ugly in a while...put an indicator on the shft and measure....030 to 040 is more in the ball park
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"the things you own will start to own you"
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Robb
Senior Member Joined: July-06-2010 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 185 |
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Eric:
The tranny is on it's way. You should have it by tomorrow. Hope all goes well with the rebuild! Will need a damper too. Thanks in advance. Robb |
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Robb
Senior Member Joined: July-06-2010 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 185 |
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Thanks Eric for the quick turnaround on the tranny! I've got all the parts installed, and everything went back together nicely. I plan on getting the boat in the water tonight or tomorrow to do final checks. Couple of questions:
1) I think I read a thread somewhere that said it is okay to only have 3 bolts securing the Sachs replacement damper to the flywheel vs the (6) that were on the OE damper. So, just to re-verify - will this work without issues? I have to assume so since this is a recommended replacement part. 2) I need to replace the cooler's 1 inch water hose, and was wondering if there is any reason why I couldn't use automotive hose, such as for a radiator? Thanks! |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Robb,
Yes, the 3 bolts are fine. No on the automotive radiator hose unless it's wire reinforced. It's on the suction side of the RWP and non reinforced hose will collapse. |
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Robb
Senior Member Joined: July-06-2010 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 185 |
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Thanks for the quick response Pete. I will likely pick this up very soon. I think it's on the discharge side (comes off top and wraps around tranny to a bronze fitting in bottom of boat), but better to be safe with the wire reinforcement.
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Robb, This is the suction side of the RWP. Water is sucked in through the through hull, goes to the strainer (if equiped), then through the trans cooler and then to the RWP. Take a closer look at the cooling water routing when you get a chance. |
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Robb
Senior Member Joined: July-06-2010 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 185 |
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You are absolutely correct. Don't know what I was thinking! Anyway, after making a few phone calls, I was able to obtain the correct hose from an area marina.
Thanks again. |
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Robb
Senior Member Joined: July-06-2010 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 185 |
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Got the boat in the water last evening and things went pretty well, but I noticed a few things:
1) Before putting in the water, I aligned the couplers to be what I considered .004", and it turned freely for 180 degrees, and then I hit resistance that required a bit more encouragement in order to turn. In the water, this seemed a tad tighter. I also had a very slight amount of drag in neutral when coming out of drive, but after about 15-20 secs, it would come to a stop. Keep working on the alignment? Bent shaft? I don't think the strut bushing has ever been replaced, so I was thinking of doing that next and re-aligning again after. 2) I replaced the shaft packing, and snugged it good by hand. It seemed to be weeping a slight amount, but I did not count actual drops per min.; it was warm after several runs around the lake, but never hot. I plan to keep an eye on it, but is this okay? 3) Also, when I was checking everything over, I noticed steady drops coming out from the top of the rudder gland. Is this a similar set up as the prop shaft gland packing - rope seal? If so, I'm guessing this will need replaced or tightened?? Thanks in advance for the insight. I greatly appreciate it! I will post some picts of the original damper that I tore down to let everyone see what they can expect to find on the inside of an otherwise normal looking, rusty damper. |
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Robb
Senior Member Joined: July-06-2010 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 185 |
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As promised, here are some picts of the original Borg Warner damper that I removed and tore down. Nothing broken, but it was packed clear full of contamination likely from fretting, corrosion, and dried up packing grease:
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eric lavine
Grand Poobah Joined: August-13-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 13413 |
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to think there are thousands of boats running around that
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"the things you own will start to own you"
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Robb,
The shaft being tight in one spot is a good indicator that it's bent. Go back and work on your alignment again. (get it better than the .004") Part of that proceedure includes checking for a bent shaft forward of the strut. You keep the trans coupling side stationary while turning the prop side. If the different gap follows the rotation, then the shaft is bent or you have a coupling with a face that isn't perpendicular to the bore. Aft of the strut you'll need a dial indicator but a with a bend there usually you won't get the tight spot. I know the alignment clinic we had at GL was video'd and have heard Kieth will be making it available soon. It would be a good one to have. |
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