engine starts without turning key |
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Sk8Nautique91
Newbie Joined: July-02-2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1 |
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Posted: July-02-2008 at 10:55pm |
i have a 91 sport nautique that has the exact same problem,but im no electrician and lost all paitenice in trying to fix her with my limited knowlage.i have also replaced every part in the starting system and nothing has fixed the constant starting problem.If anyone lives around orlando that could help me, i would compensate you for your time. Sorry for the thread jack but im dying to use my boat again!
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Huh? First you tell him not to get a rebuild because they don't last and the you tell him to have it rebuilt?? If you are referring to buying a rebuild from a auto supply, then I agree plus, you will not typically find a RR starter there. Now, if you are suggesting taking the old starter to a reputable auto/electric rebuild shop it has been mentioned. |
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HOLESHOT
Groupie Joined: July-08-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 47 |
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toolman buy a new one from ski dim the rebuilds dont last its probaly to late to get your old one back but if u can have it rebuilt
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IF IT HAS A SPARKPLUG I CAN FIX IT
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HOLESHOT
Groupie Joined: July-08-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 47 |
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so was i right?
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IF IT HAS A SPARKPLUG I CAN FIX IT
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21131 |
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Not all marine starters are for reverse rotation motors. You need a CCW starter. Theyre getting harder and harder to find- expect to pay upwards of $200. |
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toolman5
Newbie Joined: June-20-2008 Status: Offline Points: 15 |
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ok, well we found out what the problem is..it is the starter. I was buying a automotive starter (we thought someone said there was no difference between a auto and a marine starter) and the difference is that the auto one is operating in reverse of the engine unlike the marine starter that goes in the same direction. That is also why the engine is not firing. So, around here if we go to a Marine store the starter is $200 - $300 but online I see brand new ones that come with a wiring kit for about $179 or a rebuilt from $55.00. The $55.00 one sounds scary but who wants to pay more than you have to. Any comments?
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79nautique
Grand Poobah Joined: January-27-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 7872 |
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what gauge cables did you buy?
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toolman5
Newbie Joined: June-20-2008 Status: Offline Points: 15 |
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88 Nautique - Yes, replaced it twice.
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88 Nautique
Senior Member Joined: September-20-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 221 |
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Make sure the back plate of the solenoid is grounded to the engine block. Mine is mounted to a bracket which is mounted directly to the block. Make sure the ignition/start lead is hooked up to the "S" terminal. (I don't believe the "I" terminal is used in your application.)
Also, I'm not clear. Did you replace the solenoid? |
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toolman5
Newbie Joined: June-20-2008 Status: Offline Points: 15 |
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Well, I am not sure about the relay or the wiring, I think they are right but who knows. The battery cables are brand new. The battery is brand new and has 775 CCA, which I believe is more than sufficient, is that right?
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79nautique
Grand Poobah Joined: January-27-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 7872 |
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you have the wrong relay or you have the wiring wrong, or you have really old automotive cables that are under sized and dirty, also if your battery is undersized your going to have issue as well with the ford starter.
not sure that the diagram is right in regard to the excitor wire going back to the ballast resistor. Don't believe that is the proper location, should only be a purple wire going to it. |
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toolman5
Newbie Joined: June-20-2008 Status: Offline Points: 15 |
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88 Nautique - yes, that is what I did and it was 12 volts plus.
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88 Nautique
Senior Member Joined: September-20-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 221 |
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I may not have been very clear. The reading you should be taking is at the terminal on the solenoid that comes from the ignition/starter switch, not the terminal that goes to the starter. It has a smaller wire hooked to it. Trace the wire comming from your transmission safety switch and follow it back to your solenoid. That's the one. Take the voltage reading there while someone holds the switch on the "start"position. If I missunderstood you and that's what you did and you were getting 12V +, it sounds OK. Let me know. |
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critter
Platinum Member Joined: January-11-2008 Location: New Hill, NC Status: Offline Points: 1227 |
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Toolman5,
You mentioned earlier that: "Turned the key and it started to turn over, turned it off and on a couple times and it was fine. I turned on the water to start the engine and it cranked over several times but would engine would not start. I turned the key off and it continued to crank over until I un hooked the battery." When you checked for the 12v at the solenoid with the ignition switch in the Start position, you did try this multiple times ?? From the earlier post, it could be an intermittent issue with possible low voltage. Need to get this sticking solenoid issue corrected 1st. But then the not starting may just be no fuel. When my 351 sits for a while, I will pour a small amount of fuel directly in the carb and then crank it over, usually fires and then I know is it just in need of fuel. (By small amount of fuel, I am talking a couple tablespoons) |
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1980 Ski Nautique
1966 Barracuda |
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HOLESHOT
Groupie Joined: July-08-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 47 |
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if u got the starter from checker mybe its not a reverse rotation starter cause that engine should be reverse
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IF IT HAS A SPARKPLUG I CAN FIX IT
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Have the starter checked again. NOT at Checker!! Seen if you can find a shop that rebuilds alternators ans starters. They are usually listed under "auto - electric". If you can't find one, try another parts house like Napa.
Edit: If the solenoid was stuck, you will want to get a new one but you could also take it with you to have it checked too. |
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toolman5
Newbie Joined: June-20-2008 Status: Offline Points: 15 |
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I did what you told me to do and it the solenoid was stuck closed so I tapped on it like you said and that did work. I took a voltage reading on the terminal going to the starter after reconnecting the battery cable and it was 0. Then I had someone hold the key in the start position and I could hear the solenoid click and it was reading 12 volts plus. So, any other ideas?
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88 Nautique
Senior Member Joined: September-20-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 221 |
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I had the same problem. Solenoid stuck in the closed position causing the starter to run on. Insufficiant voltage from the ignition switch wouldn't engage the solonoid fast enough and caused the contacts to "weld" in the closed position.
Do this: 1.Disconnect the battery cable from the solenoid to the starter and reconnect your battery. 2.Take a volt reading at the starter terminal at the solenoid. Should be 0 volts. If your getting 12 volts, your solenoid is stuck closed. Tap on the solenoid to see if you can clear the 12 volts. If you can't, replace the solenoid, but don't try to start your engine yet as you may burn up your new sonenoid. 3.Have someone hold the key in the "start" position. Take a voltage reading at the ignition switch start terminal at the solenoid itself. This is the small terminal with the wire that comes from your ignition switch, through the transmission safety switch then to your solenoid. Should be close to 12 volts. If it's 8 or 9 volts or less, you have a bad or corroded connection in the path between the battery and solenoid. Possibly at the circuit breakers behind the dash, ignition(start) switch or wiring harness. Note: Don't hold the switch in the "start" position very long. This is a momentary relay and will overheat and burn up if left engaged too long. I found my bad connection where hot wire from the engine wiring harness connects to the dash circuit breaker. Looks like it had overheated at one time from some type of overload from the P.O. Replaced the terminal, cleaned the breaker connection and was good to go. |
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SNobsessed
Grand Poobah Joined: October-21-2007 Location: IA Status: Offline Points: 7102 |
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"Also, there is a ceramic stone part right above the solenoid that has two terminals coming off of it and when the key is off that part gets hot."
Did you say the ballast resister is getting hot when the key if off? Something is wired wrong or the ignition switch is shorted out. There should be no voltage getting to the ballast resistor when the key is off! |
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“Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.”
Ben Franklin |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Yes, it is the stand alone "solenoid" that we are talking about. For some reason, over the years, the term solenoid has been used. It is actually a starter relay. You will see it referred to a relay as well. The solenoid/relay is what the ignition switch turns on.
The solenoid on the starter is what engages the starters gear into the flywheel gear. (ring gear) |
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toolman5
Newbie Joined: June-20-2008 Status: Offline Points: 15 |
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8122pbrainard - Yes, it was from Checker Auto which is like Auto Zone if you don't have them. I will try what you said to do and let you know. Also, I just want to be sure on this but...on the starter itself is a solenoid which is housed and sits right at the top of it then, there is the solenoid that is a part by itself which the starter connects to, when we are talking solenoid we are talking about the part by itself and not the one that is part of the starter, correct?
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Keep the battery disconnected and check the continuity of the main contacts on the solenoid (across the big terminals) Use the ohm meter set to ohms and if you get a reading then contacts are welded together. This would be from the load (starter) and not wiring it wrong nor using a automotive solenoid. Who checked the starter???? Was it someone at a place like Auto Zone? The starer solenoid is nothing more than a heavy duty relay. Marine and auto work the same way.
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toolman5
Newbie Joined: June-20-2008 Status: Offline Points: 15 |
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So, took the starter out and took it to be tested to make sure it isint bad, it was fine. I had blown the solenoid again so I bought a new one and installed it. Turned the key and it started to turn over, turned it off and on a couple times and it was fine. I turned on the water to start the engine and it cranked over several times but would engine would not start. I turned the key off and it continued to crank over until I un hooked the battery. Something is blowing the solenoid, this is the 2nd new one.
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toolman5
Newbie Joined: June-20-2008 Status: Offline Points: 15 |
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8122pbrainard - I replaced the ignition switch. Also, can the solenoid be ANY solenoid or does it have to be a marine solenoid? If so, what is the difference? The one I used is a basic four post.
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Here's a basic wiring diagram.
You'll see that when the ignition switch is turned to the start position, you should have 12 volts coming from it, going through the neutral safety switch and to the starter solenoid. Everything that has happened so far to me points to the ignition switch. |
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luckoven
Newbie Joined: June-21-2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 13 |
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I am dealing with a solenoid problem myself. I have the feeling the replacement solenoid was bad. It is possible, the one I received for Skidim this week was bad, but mine was stuck in the engaged position, so it crank without the turning the key (like in your first post).
If the motor cranks using the screwdriver method it is probably still your solenoid. Let me know if you need any of the solenoid wiring info. |
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boat dr
Grand Poobah Joined: June-27-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4245 |
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Toolman. it is called a "Ballast Resistor" it's pupose is to decrease voltage to the points. This will insure a long life for these delicate "switches"........Boat dr
And yes it should get very warm, thats the reason it is a ceramic material........ |
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toolman5
Newbie Joined: June-20-2008 Status: Offline Points: 15 |
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Ok, here is what he said to tell you guys...If he takes a screw driver and touches the two main terminals on the solenoid, the engine cranks over very strong. Also..
He connected the nuetral switch wires together to bypass the nuetral switch incase that was the problem and still the engine didn't start. Also, there is a ceramic stone part right above the solenoid that has two terminals coming off of it and when the key is off that part gets hot. Does any of this tell anybody anything? I am looking in the manual and don't see any wiring diagrams. |
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toolman5
Newbie Joined: June-20-2008 Status: Offline Points: 15 |
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SNobsessed - The starter has been replaced.
8122pbrainard - The person working on the boat is my husband, he is not the one who told us it was a Cleveland. He does have an ohm meter but as handy as he is, electrical is not his best. I don't think he knows exactly how to use it in this problem. We have a manual for the boat, I would guess that there is a diagram to look at, I am checking now. |
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