GT-40 will not start after changing fuel filter |
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rakerdeal ![]() Groupie ![]() Joined: January-10-2018 Location: Lexington, NC Status: Offline Points: 92 |
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Ran the boat all over the lake today. Weehii!
My 1998 Air Nautique got sunk by a friend when it had 2,000 hours on it. Never once did it fail to start. My 1999 Pro Air Nautique, bought with 900 hours on it and 500 more put on it, got burned up accidentally by my (not kidding) great (and I mean really good people) neighbors who were burning leaves next door and didn't get the fire put out completely. Bought a 1998 Sport Nautique recently with 242 hours on it. This is the only one so far that would not start....ever....in all the years and hours I've put on these boats. Yea, that's pretty reliable I'd say. All the same engines; love these engines. |
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8122pbrainard ![]() Grand Poobah ![]() ![]() Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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The failure rate of the relays seems pretty high due to reports here plus the fact that some even carry spares. Yes, they are a common relays used for many applications in automotive but the application on a inductive load causes arcing of the contacts that drastically reduce the life especially on a DC inductive load. When designed, someone missed the fact that arc suppression is needed. It's a simple RC circuit that's simple to add. Commercial snubber modules are even available. Snubber modules
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Gary S ![]() Grand Poobah ![]() ![]() Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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Gosh Pete you can find the relays for around 5 bucks if you don't snag them like Ken. What does it cost to build a suppression circuit? Charles's relays lasted 20 years, Mine were 22 and were only changed because the plastic cracked that held the metal bracket to them so they didn't stay mounted on the plate.
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MrMcD ![]() Grand Poobah ![]() ![]() Joined: January-28-2014 Location: Folsom, CA Status: Offline Points: 3620 |
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Pete, I wish I had your understanding of the electronics. I have never ventured to learn how all the relays work. Nice to have your advice on here.
Rakerdeal, you have some really bad luck, but as they say bad luck comes in three's. Your done now. Mark |
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KENO ![]() Grand Poobah ![]() Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 10777 |
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So a 20 to 25 year lifespan on these things is unreliable ? Let's look at automotive uses like on say a 93 Grand Cherokee with 250,000 plus miles and it's relays are original. The fuel pump relay and the A/C compressor relay are the same as these gt-40 relays without the bracket. Now what kind of loads are those? Maybe you'd rather get towed in or paddle in if you were broken down instead of having a couple of spares that take up roughly 2 cubic inches of space and can be changed in a few minutes. You need to go back to picking on electronic modules and filing your points ![]() |
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JoeinNY ![]() Grand Poobah ![]() ![]() Joined: October-19-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5697 |
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Relays aint what they used to be, they were good - then they took out mercury and other not responsible stuff, then they were real bad, now they are getting better again as the manufacturers learn the ways of the alternate metals available for the contacts. I don't disagree that a snubber can help but probably a bit over kill here.. If someone is burning through relays the likely cause is going to be pumps that are on their way out and are pulling higher current then they should. Once the contact surface of the relay has had a serious arching event or two that burns through the coating then they wear much quicker.
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shierh ![]() Gold Member ![]() Joined: April-29-2015 Location: Florida Status: Offline Points: 605 |
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The bosch type used on your boat are pretty good but failures can happen. You can do lots of cool and simple circuits using them, here is a control panel for a diesel generator the I designed and built, works pretty good.
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81nautique ![]() Grand Poobah ![]() ![]() Joined: September-03-2005 Location: Big Rock, Il Status: Offline Points: 5776 |
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Slightly off topic but No kidding, I blew a relay on a 220 3 phase oven when a car hit a pole near my shop and the power flicked on and off several times before going out completely. That was a mercury relay and I couldn't find an original replacement, Put on the recommended replacement and that thing didn't last a month. Took me a while to locate some old stock and then I couldn't get it shipped to Illlinois because it's illegal to ship Mercury now. After some creative wrangling I got my NOS Mercury relay and it's been fine since, I'm still looking for another back up though, getting hard to find the good stuff. |
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8122pbrainard ![]() Grand Poobah ![]() ![]() Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Alan,
McMaster used to have the mercury relays but checking it looks like they too discontinued them. The replacement you got, was it a mechanical relay or was it a solid state? In the past 20 years, solid states have become very popular for resistance heating for on/off as well as chopping the wave form for variable heating. If the replacement was mechanical, look into the solid state or a RC to protect the mechanicals contacts. |
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Duane in Indy ![]() Platinum Member ![]() ![]() Joined: October-26-2015 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 1578 |
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Do like KENO said and just grab some from a donor vehicle and throw them in your tool box.
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Keep it as original as YOU want it
1978 Mustang (modified) |
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KENO ![]() Grand Poobah ![]() Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 10777 |
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Rakerdeal
I don't know what you bought for relays but if you walked into the auto parts store and said give me a couple of relays like this,you should look at the little schematic on the side and make sure it matches the original schematic. The originals have a resistor in parallel with the coil between the 85 and 86 contacts and hopefully your new ones do too. Here's what the schematic should look like. That blank rectangle on the left is the resistor If there is nothing going around the coil, you should get relays with the resistor for suppression of voltage surges If in doubt, if you get the PCM relays you can't go wrong The link below is good info link about relays ![]() |
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8122pbrainard ![]() Grand Poobah ![]() ![]() Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Ken,
Thanks. Getting the relays that Ken mentions is certainly a good idea but do understand that the resistor between the coil is arc protection for the "upstream" device (whatever is turning the relay on and off) and is not protecting the relay contacts from arc damage. |
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Gary S ![]() Grand Poobah ![]() ![]() Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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When I get back north I will check and see what numbers are on my old and new relays. Mark had in the past listed their part numbers but I cannot find it. The numbers on the new did not match the old but they had the correct "water resistant" plug and mounting lug that the ones that come from a Jeep don't. With Pete talking snow I'm in no hurry
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rakerdeal ![]() Groupie ![]() Joined: January-10-2018 Location: Lexington, NC Status: Offline Points: 92 |
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Keno I'll see what I got tomorrow. You guys are surely having fun now interacting well above my electronic/mechanical performance or play level. Still I do enjoy reading and learning a little.
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KENO ![]() Grand Poobah ![]() Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 10777 |
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Just trying to make sure your fix is good and doesn't lead to any other problems. ![]() |
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KENO ![]() Grand Poobah ![]() Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 10777 |
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After staying up well past my bedtime I found this for you Gary ![]()
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Gary S ![]() Grand Poobah ![]() ![]() Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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Your search skills are better than mine Ken
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KENO ![]() Grand Poobah ![]() Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 10777 |
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They're only better on the odd numbered days of even numbered months.
Lewy's link has Hella part number 007794301 as what he bought and they worked too. |
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KENO ![]() Grand Poobah ![]() Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 10777 |
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Here's the info on a Hella 87411 which supersedes the 87412 mentioned in Lewy's post and cross references to the 4RD 960388-31. and the 007794301. It's in the link at the end of this post
Cheap Chinese made piece of crap is only good for 100,000 cycles when used on an inductive load ![]() German company with BIG factory in China Hella relay |
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KENO ![]() Grand Poobah ![]() Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 10777 |
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In case anybody's wondering and to validate that it's the same style relay, here's a picture of a NAPA/Echlin AR-174 relay that's easy to find.
The schematic is the same as the Hella/PCM relays so it's functionally the same thing. No metal bracket though, you have to reuse the old one ![]() It's also" hecho en China", says it right on the box I paid about 9 US dollars for it. ![]() |
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rakerdeal ![]() Groupie ![]() Joined: January-10-2018 Location: Lexington, NC Status: Offline Points: 92 |
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Keno my schematic is different so I need to get different ones. Any of those posted that you recommend?
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rakerdeal ![]() Groupie ![]() Joined: January-10-2018 Location: Lexington, NC Status: Offline Points: 92 |
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Here is my current shcmatic:
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rakerdeal ![]() Groupie ![]() Joined: January-10-2018 Location: Lexington, NC Status: Offline Points: 92 |
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Keno, ordered the ones you posted from Napa/Echlin AR174.
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KENO ![]() Grand Poobah ![]() Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 10777 |
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Well, the good news is that you'll have 2 good spares
![]() Looking at the schematics without getting all wordy and technical they both function the same in this application because these particular relays aren't polarity sensitive. Either ones will work equally well. You could leave what you have there and they should be good for another 20 years or until some crazy thing happens to this boat, but it's nice to have a couple of spares handy. |
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8122pbrainard ![]() Grand Poobah ![]() ![]() Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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They are the same. You need to look at the terminal numbers. |
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rakerdeal ![]() Groupie ![]() Joined: January-10-2018 Location: Lexington, NC Status: Offline Points: 92 |
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Thanks Keno. I now have 2 extras coming with is quite ok with me. I had sort of figured my initial observation was (as usual) incorrect.
I really REALLY appreciate your help. I have enjoyed this experience. I like bonding with my boats. |
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craigmeade ![]() Newbie ![]() Joined: February-02-2020 Location: Florida Status: Offline Points: 29 |
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Hey guys I am now having a similar problem to the one described at the start of the thread so I thought i'd get it out there for your thoughts.
I recently disassembled and resealed/ reassembled the line between the low pressure and high pressure pump on my 95 GT-40 in order to correct a fuel leak. When I tried to start the boat, I got a second of the engine firing and that was it. I can hear the low pressure pump running, and I also cycled the ignition several times to see if I could get more fuel in there. Eventually, the battery died. Thanks in advance for your help. Mike |
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KENO ![]() Grand Poobah ![]() Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 10777 |
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Does it consistently start and run for about a second or so or did it just do it once?
Do you have a safety lanyard/tether switch? Is it plugged in? If it's unplugged it'll start and shut right back off Check your 12.5 and 20 amp breakers on the back of the engine also to be sure one is not tripped. |
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craigmeade ![]() Newbie ![]() Joined: February-02-2020 Location: Florida Status: Offline Points: 29 |
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It consistently fires for about a second
And confirmed the lanyard is attached I will look at the breakers |
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