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"Blown" Ford 351 |
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8122pbrainard 
Grand Poobah 
Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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 Posted: November-24-2020 at 9:07am |
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Yes, two bearings are needed. If you do want the seal, industry standards are about 1/3rd the cost of the Sherwood "12859" The industrial standard number should be stamped on the seal. |
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KENO
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Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 10715 |
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Posted: November-24-2020 at 8:17am |
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You might even want to spend 14 bucks for 2 bearings and then a mechanical seal to go with the bearings like mentioned above
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8122pbrainard
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Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Posted: November-24-2020 at 8:04am |
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If it'd just the bearing that's bad (besides the impeller), then for $7, get a new bearing.
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KENO
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Posted: November-24-2020 at 7:40am |
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In the link below is a Sherwood catalog/manual with lots of info. page 18 and 19 give info on Sherwood part numbers for your pump. It's a little awkward to read, but if page 18 is right next to page 19 instead of one above the other then things makes sense and you'll see that the great majority of parts are the same as a G21 that's still available. They give a Sherwood part number for a "major repair kit" for your pump. It's 23977 and has all the internal parts except the shaft. It's kinda pricey but it's available thru many outfits A rebuild isn't the easiest thing, you need a press for the bearings and you need to make sure all the snap rings are out so you don't break the housing when trying to get the bearings out You end up replacing the mechanical seal also when doing the bearings. There are instructions in the catalog/manual in the link and there's a thread by GaryS about his pump rebuild. There's alittle finesse involved with the bearings and mechanical seal. If you're not comfortable doing it, places like PumpVendor.com and others can do it for you or you could probably get it done locally but ya gotta pay attention to those snap rings You could also buy the bearings and mechanical seal separately and reuse some of your internal parts but the Sherwood kit is complete.. The bearing is a 6202-2RS-10 It's 5/8 ID, 35mm OD and 11 mm wide. The 10 on the end is important because that's telling you it has a 5/8 ID. A 6202-2RS without the 10 on the end won't work because it has a 15 mm ID which won't work. (it's close but you could never wiggle your shaft into it  ) |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah
Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Posted: November-24-2020 at 5:30am |
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William777
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Joined: October-21-2017 Location: Northern CA Status: Offline Points: 149 |
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Posted: November-24-2020 at 1:42am |
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As I'm sitting here in the city with my raw water pump in hand, I'm thinking the sound I was hearing, the whining, is probably the sound of bearings going bad. I wiggled the shaft, a favorite pass time of mine, and it moves side to side a bit. Should it move? Is there an option for a bolt on replacement since this style is obsolete?
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1978 Martinique Ford 351 Windsor
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William777
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Posted: November-22-2020 at 12:48pm |
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Thank you!!!  You're getting there [/QUOTE] |
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1978 Martinique Ford 351 Windsor
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KENO
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Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 10715 |
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Posted: November-22-2020 at 12:28pm |
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And for all that Bill, you get one big You're getting there |
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William777
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Posted: November-22-2020 at 12:19pm |
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Yes indeed it's year 3 ! My neighbor asked the other day if I was going to sell it after I get it running. My first thought was, "Are you ***************g kidding?!?" But I politely replied, 'No, I'm keeping it for myself.". Although I'm not finished, I have no regrets. It's had it's highs and lows. I know I go about things in my own way (read- what the hell am I doing?), but I haven't given up.
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1978 Martinique Ford 351 Windsor
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8122pbrainard
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Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Posted: November-22-2020 at 12:13pm |
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Yes, Duane could send it over to China and have them coat it with the as seen on TV Ninja non stick!   |
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tryathlete
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Joined: April-19-2013 Location: Lake Villa, IL Status: Offline Points: 1797 |
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Posted: November-22-2020 at 11:57am |
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William—we all wait to hear how it runs once the impeller is in. Is this the third year of this story?
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tryathlete
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Joined: April-19-2013 Location: Lake Villa, IL Status: Offline Points: 1797 |
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Posted: November-22-2020 at 11:37am |
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Coatings for the alum pump.....might be a great place to try put PTFE. If the impeller runs dry it might last a few minutes longer.
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Duane in Indy
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Joined: October-26-2015 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 1578 |
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Posted: November-22-2020 at 10:54am |
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No coating yet. Wanted to make sure it would pump before $$ Anodizing. Not planning on brackish or salt water either. 6060-T6 was the material used. Probably last many many hours under normal usage in fresh water. If I had KENO'S energy then I would tear it apart and Anodize it. Too many irons in the fire now. (maybe need bigger fire?)
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Keep it as original as YOU want it
1978 Mustang (modified) |
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8122pbrainard
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Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Posted: November-22-2020 at 10:12am |
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Duane, After all the work and time you put into making it, glad to hear. Did you have a hard coat threatment done to it to prevent wear of the softer aluminum?
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63 Skier
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Joined: October-06-2006 Location: Concord, NH Status: Offline Points: 4238 |
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Posted: November-22-2020 at 10:01am |
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Duane, if that's hackery I wish I was more of a hack. Really impressive work! Ken, that grinder is so 1990's, you have to have a cordless one now so you have another charger and 2 batteries that are always dead.
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'63 American Skier - '98 Sport Nautique
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KENO
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Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 10715 |
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Posted: November-22-2020 at 9:00am |
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Duane in Indy
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Posted: November-22-2020 at 8:52am |
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Just glad I don't try to sell these given the time involved. BTW It did work great.
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Keep it as original as YOU want it
1978 Mustang (modified) |
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KENO
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Posted: November-22-2020 at 8:42am |
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You can't fool me Duane A real backyard hack does all his machine work with a 4 1/2 inch angle grinder. I guess if you add in your labor, that's a pretty expensive piece of hackery
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Duane in Indy
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Posted: November-22-2020 at 8:35am |
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   KENO, Nothing is OBSOLETE. Just takes a little time and some "backyard hackary skills" |
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Keep it as original as YOU want it
1978 Mustang (modified) |
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KENO
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Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 10715 |
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Posted: November-22-2020 at 6:28am |
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In case you're wondering, Sherwood called that an L80 pump in your boat It's obsolete now but you can still get parts for it through various places. As compared to the G20 or G21 pumps used on PCM Fords, because of the bigger impeller it has a few GPM more flow at most operating speeds and has 1 1/4 inch inlet and outlet connections while the G20, G21 have 1 inch connections The smaller Commander pump was a Sherwood J70 also obsolete but pretty much every part except the shaft is the same as the G20, G21 pumps
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63 Skier
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Joined: October-06-2006 Location: Concord, NH Status: Offline Points: 4238 |
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Posted: November-21-2020 at 10:51pm |
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While you are waiting for the new impeller to arrive, search "timmy tee" on this site and plumb in a tee in your raw water intake hose that you can use to feed raw water from a hose for running on the trailer. It's the best and safest way to run on the trailer.
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'63 American Skier - '98 Sport Nautique
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William777
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Joined: October-21-2017 Location: Northern CA Status: Offline Points: 149 |
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Posted: November-21-2020 at 6:41pm |
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Measured it and it's the 10615K. Ordering it now. I'll scour for the pieces and drain the exhaust manifolds tomorrow. I'm thankful for your expert advice guys. Found a genuine Sherwood impeller on West Marine site,
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1978 Martinique Ford 351 Windsor
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KENO
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Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 10715 |
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Posted: November-21-2020 at 6:00pm |
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Can't slip nuthin' past you Bill It probably takes a Sherwood 09959K impeller or something that cross references to it Should be 5/8 shaft size and the width or depth of the piece in your hand should be about 1 1/4 inches. If the piece in your hand is about 1 5/8 inches deep then it's a 10615K impeller. They had 2 different Sherwood pumps on Commanders And don't forget to find all the pieces that you can. You'll need to look in the thermostat housing and the inlets to the exhaust manifolds and drain the manifolds and maybe a piece or two will come out the drains. Then you need to look on the suction side of the pump right at the inlet and with the suction hose off look at that hose and the transmission oil cooler outlet because some of those chunks can drain backwards and make their way back to the cooler.. As far as the impeller, some people are convinced that you need a genuine Sherwood impeller or it'll overheat, some aren't so convinced about that and use aftermarket equivalents
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Gary S
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Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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Posted: November-21-2020 at 5:47pm |
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Sounds like you have never taken it apart before so you really have no idea what shape it was in before. They can tear up from age,running engine without water hooked up or mounting the housing backward so that the water does not get sucked through it. The incoming water lubricates it. Now your going to have to find those pieces so that they don't clog and cooing system parts. They sometimes end up in the thermostat housing or by the trans cooler
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William777
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Posted: November-21-2020 at 4:54pm |
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Going out on a limb here and assuming it should not look like this...how could this happen and can someone refer me a part number please? Thanks guys.
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1978 Martinique Ford 351 Windsor
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William777
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Posted: November-21-2020 at 4:53pm |
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1978 Martinique Ford 351 Windsor
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8122pbrainard
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Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Posted: November-21-2020 at 4:43pm |
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Yes, open the RWP up and see what's going on inside. There is a possibility that the rubber impeller has sheared off it's hub.
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William777
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Posted: November-21-2020 at 4:02pm |
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Thanks guys. I think this is good news....the tabs are sticking out on both sides on the head gaskets. It took a minute to get it started but finally it fired up. Have a hose in a bucket and there is 0 water being drawn from it. I remember a loud whining coming from the raw pump on the initial start two weeks ago. I thought it was because it was dry and when the water flowed it would stop. It did stop but maybe not for the reasons I assumed....I think its dead. I'll be very happy if we've solved the overheating issue without having to remove the heads, please god. I'm going out to remove it now and see if I can get it open. Onwards.....this would be the next step?
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1978 Martinique Ford 351 Windsor
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KENO
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Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 10715 |
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Posted: November-21-2020 at 1:46pm |
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Looks like I can't see the screw so the pump is mounted for reverse rotation like it should be.
Some Commanders had the pump mounted a little differently but in the same spot, not quite as vertical, but yours looks right to me (and Pete)...........It's gotta be right Don't bother rotating it, but it could be rotated 180 by removing the hoses and the 2 bolts holding it to the bracket. How's them head gaskets with the lip hanging out or maybe not hanging out on one of them? |
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8122pbrainard
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Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Posted: November-21-2020 at 12:22pm |
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Yes, that's the RWP. Look on the side of the body of the RWP towards the circulation pump and you will see the screw that Ken mentions and pictured. That's where it should be for a RR engine. BTW, the screw is what holds the cam inside the pump.
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8122pbrainard wrote: