Boats For Sale:
"Blown" Ford 351 |
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William777 
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Joined: October-21-2017 Location: Northern CA Status: Offline Points: 149 |
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 Posted: April-24-2021 at 1:37pm |
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I removed the pressure regulator and I don't know how to diagnose it. "Stuck" open would refer to some internal component of the regulator or its position in the barrel chamber it fits in. I kinda see how it works, when the shifter is moved back and forth it spins the regulator inside the barrel changing the fluid path between forward and reverse? It moves freely in the barrel. There is some kind of plunger thing inside held tight with a spring. The spring is tight. I used a bottle jack braced and compressed the spring and it moves, although this is a strong spring. Can someone explain what stuck open and stuck closed means? Thank you.
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1978 Martinique Ford 351 Windsor
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William777
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Joined: October-21-2017 Location: Northern CA Status: Offline Points: 149 |
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Posted: April-24-2021 at 11:36am |
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Keno, that's exactly the post I was looking at. Also, thanks you for the heads up on the reverse plates. I'm currently trying to figure out how to remove the pressure regulator. Don't suppose I can test these components without having to reassemble the tranny?
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1978 Martinique Ford 351 Windsor
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KENO
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Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 10713 |
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Posted: April-24-2021 at 6:16am |
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The great post was probably the "Wouter" thread on the Mastercraft forum.(He did miss/skip a few things in the forward piston and cylinder area though...he didn't disassemble them and replace seals)
If so, his transmission was a later version and used multiple reverse plates. Yours came with one just like you found (and forward and reverse both worked for the last 40 something years) So...........it had nothing to do with your forward slippage Here's a link to a manual from the time period yours was built, showing one reverse plate page 65 of the manual talks about clutch plate combinations. Yours would be combination #1 in the chart, later versions were combination #10 which his transmission had. You could assemble yours with the #10 pieces and it would work They're thinner plates that when installed take up the same amount of space in the cavity as your older thick one. If reverse was slipping too, but still got you back to the ramp, you probably have a pressure problem with the pump or pressure regulator. If the damper plate was bad and slipping, you probably would have heard some "god awful grinding noises" as the springs in the damper were self destructing
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William777
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Joined: October-21-2017 Location: Northern CA Status: Offline Points: 149 |
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Posted: April-24-2021 at 1:40am |
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After I did the Clearlake method of timing setting, it idles fine now around the 600 RPM mark. No clue. As far as the transmission goes...I tore it all down and then read ahead on this great post I found into the reassembly steps to familiarize myself with the procedure before I started myself. On the reverse clutch plate assembly it says assemble bronze then steel then bronze plates in order. My transmission only had one bronze plate in it. No other bronze and no steel. The forward clutch plates look practically new but I'll replace them anyway. Could the gap those missing plates in the reverse assembly have caused my issues? I'm going to stick the drive gear back in the dampener plate on the flywheel and see if I can turn it to check if the dampener is still intact internally. It looks fine from the outside. Grazzi for any input.
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1978 Martinique Ford 351 Windsor
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SNobsessed
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Joined: October-21-2007 Location: IA Status: Offline Points: 7102 |
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Posted: April-22-2021 at 5:39pm |
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Yeah it needs to be about 600 to set timing. Sounds like you might have a vacuum leak if you can't get it to idle down.
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“Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.”
Ben Franklin |
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William777
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Posted: April-22-2021 at 11:53am |
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Well dang, clueless in Clearlake again I guess. I thought I read that somewhere. Anyway when I did it it ran better and finally would idle below 1000. I'll check it all again soon.
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1978 Martinique Ford 351 Windsor
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MourningWood
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Joined: June-13-2014 Location: NorCal Status: Offline Points: 889 |
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Posted: April-22-2021 at 11:29am |
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Agree.
Setting the idle speed in gear is one thing...but timing does not need to be in gear at all. |
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1994 Ski Nautique "Riot"
1964 Dunphy X-55 "One 'N Dun" 'I measured twice, cut three times, and it's still too short!" |
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SNobsessed
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Posted: April-21-2021 at 5:36pm |
Sorry to hear of your tranny issue. I am confused by the need to have the boat in gear to set timing. Does it have an automotive distributor with vacuum advance?
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“Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.”
Ben Franklin |
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Wilhelm Hertzog
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Joined: June-14-2014 Location: Cape Town Status: Offline Points: 327 |
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Posted: April-21-2021 at 9:43am |
Glad another CCF'er is joining me on this journey of discovery I'm currently on... |
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1982 Ski Nautique PCM351W RR II Velvet Drive 10-17-003 1:1 II PerfectPass Stargazer
Do not go gentle into that good night. Rage, rage against the dying of the light. |
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William777
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Posted: April-19-2021 at 8:46pm |
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OK, the new starter was longer in the snout and the gear was starting in a position closer to the flywheel. It worked great.
The timing was not easy to set. I was paranoid about putting the boat in drive while tied to the dock but I had to do that in the end in order to get the timing set properly. I did that and it was amazing how nicely the timing dialed in with that procedure. I didn't pull the dock away nor did the boat ride up on the dock, which were the things I was envisioning happening. So I had the boat on the water last Sunday for 4 hours and all was well. Then yesterday I was going to pick some friends up from their dock and 30 yards from the dock the transmission flopped. It started slipping like a bad clutch on a manual auto transmission, then it gave out all together and das boat stopped moving. I detached the cable and tried to shift into gear at the transmission and still no go. All I had was a little reverse, so I reversed into the dock. Somewhat embarrassing, considering I didn't know some of the people I was supposed to be giving this magical boat ride to. It was better than being stranded on the water, though. So, now I get to become a Borg Warner expert. What glee.
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1978 Martinique Ford 351 Windsor
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KENO
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Posted: April-07-2021 at 5:03pm |
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Shorty
It's not as simple as measuring the snout on your previous starter which was one of the newer smaller, more powerful .PMGR starters and comparing the length to the snout on the older style big starter Your snout on the SFD 0071 which is what you put on earlier in the thread is about 2 inches and it works fine to start your engine. The snout on the starter you just got is about 2 3/8 inches and it works just fine too. You have to have them side by side and look at the gear positions and mounting surfaces to see that they both work the same as far as engaging the teeth on the flywheel.. I could get some pictures later So............it's not the length or the size that matters as long as it works for you You might have had an issue with the gear binding on the shaft or the solenoid not functioning to make the linkage arm push the gear into engagement.
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William777
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Posted: April-07-2021 at 1:43pm |
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That's great news Keno! I didn't know the doctors had anything for that! As far as the less crucial problem I'm having goes; the description of the new starter says the snout protrudes 2 3/8 inches into the bell housing chamber. I just measured with a tape and that's correct. The one I just took off measured 2 inches protrusion. I'm hoping the extra 3/8 of an inch engages the teeth on the flywheel completely and passes over the ground up teeth enough to not get stuck there. I don't think an extra 3/8 of an inch is going to help me in the other department. What I'm concerned about is the circumference of the starter body itself. It seems to be much bigger than the one I just took off. Saturday morning will tell.
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1978 Martinique Ford 351 Windsor
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KENO
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Posted: April-07-2021 at 7:31am |
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Bill
The new starter should fit and work, it just has a different place to bolt the battery cable to it. PCM and Commander used the same long nosed Ford starter with the same 157 tooth flywheel. Your old starter,if it was the short nosed version shouldn't have engaged the teeth on the flywheel at all due to the length difference so your new and old may have the same length nose or snout when you compare them.
Now as far as your personal lifelong "snout" issues............I think there are websites and doctors that maybe can help you out in that category |
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William777
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Posted: April-06-2021 at 1:57pm |
 The wiring looks totally different from the old as well. I'm not with the boat till this weekend to try it out though.
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1978 Martinique Ford 351 Windsor
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William777
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Posted: April-06-2021 at 1:37pm |
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I've now read that maybe the PCMs and the Commanders, which is what I have use different starters.
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1978 Martinique Ford 351 Windsor
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William777
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Posted: April-06-2021 at 1:13pm |
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An update on the continuing "Perseverance" saga. After breaking off two intake manifold bolts, on two separate occasions, which means two rounds of removal and gasket replacements, I learned about ARP bolts. Those held the torque. I'm an expert on removing and replacing intake manifolds and gaskets now. So I get the engine started and I'm fiddling with the timing and carb adjustments trying to get it to idle somewhere below 1000RPM's. It was running smoothly at 1100 but would die when I turned the throttle? screw to lower the idle. Well, that required me to keep restarting and the last time I tried to start it the starter just wound up and was spinning freely. Upon inspection I noticed the starter gear had ground off the front of a couple teeth on the flywheel and was spinning in the gap. I then figured out that I had the wrong starter. Its "snout" is too short. This is a personal problem I've dealt with all my life, but there was always a work around. So, the teeth on the flywheel are still intact just behind where the BAD starter contacted them. So, I'm hoping the new longer snouted starter will engage them. Researching I found and bought this starter: APIMarine 10029LH. It has 19J1 stamped on the body. The web said it fits my boat. Can anyone confirm this? I'll be back at the lake this Saturday with high hopes. Hope everyone has a nice day
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1978 Martinique Ford 351 Windsor
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William777
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Posted: December-14-2020 at 11:19am |
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Thanks guys, Keno, the rebuild on the raw pump was great. I've only idled the engine at the dock. The temp hovered around 140*. And thanks to all for the rebuild recommendations! Also, thanks for the PCV explanation. I was at sea on that system. Had no idea the port on the oil filler was an in for fresh air!
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1978 Martinique Ford 351 Windsor
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8122pbrainard
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Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Posted: December-14-2020 at 9:56am |
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I too recommend Then and Now. The last time I delt with them was for a fuel pump rebuild kit also on my 312 Y block. It worked so well that I ended up having to install a fuel pressure regulator. I discovered the YH side draft carbs don't like higher pressures. They are very happy at 4 PSI and weren't at 9 PSI.
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skutsch
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Posted: December-14-2020 at 9:44am |
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I second the motion on "Then and Now Automotive" I sent them a fuel pump off of my Dad's Y-block. It came back looking like new. I also asked them if they could source a "spare" and they were able to find a second one for me that also looked just like new. It was a few years ago, but I thought the price was VERY reasonable.
Pretty quick turnaround too!
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KENO
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Posted: December-14-2020 at 7:31am |
 Here's a picture of your fuel pump from earlier in this thread, ( it snuck in and photobombed your water pump picture) kinda not too clear but looks like a Carter M60389. You'll find mixed reviews on the newer non rebuildable ones they sell these days. You can get rebuild kits for the older ones or send it off to get rebuilt at someplace like Then and Now Automotive, click the link below If your pump has a ruptured diaphragm any leakage should be going thru that black hose that looks like it's hooked to metal tubing and up to the flame arrestor or carburetor. It shouldn't be puddling up anywhere. The USCG says that hose only needs to be clear vinyl tubing so you can actually see what's inside the hose like maybe gas or maybe nothing I don't think I'd condemn the pump just yet without a little more investigation, then again if it's old and from the 70's maybe you could just call it good preventive maintenance That would be up to you
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KENO
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Posted: December-14-2020 at 7:09am |
There are different ways to ventilate your crankcase Bill, but what you're thinking of isn't one of them Here are a diagram of a "typical" PCV system and a few pictures The oil fill cap in all 3 pictures is the route for the PCV system to get fresh air into the crankcase. First picture shows a cap with a hose connection on top and the hose going up to the outside of the flame arrestor. Your new valve cover probably has the connection like the second engine picture and the hose goes from the neck up to the outside of the flame arrestor Third picture, no hose at all, the fill cap is vented and air goes in through it. Plenty of variations depending on different brand engines, but for your Ford, this should give you the idea By the way, how'd the boat do with the freshly rebuilt raw water pump ?     |
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William777
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Posted: December-14-2020 at 1:43am |
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Also, as I was removing the fuel pump in order to remove the oil idiot light sending unit that I was told at the auto parts store was the oil 'pressure' sending unit that was meant for my engine, I noticed fuel mixed with oil in a little pocket in the timing cover where the fuel pump attaches.. I'm thinking gas should never be there. I guess my fuel pump is now shot. Of course it is. So I was reading about buying a new one and the reviews of the one I found online are very mixed. One of them says it is a great pump if you want to burn alive in the boat with your family. So, maybe the fuel pump is the next rebuild.
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1978 Martinique Ford 351 Windsor
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William777
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Joined: October-21-2017 Location: Northern CA Status: Offline Points: 149 |
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Posted: December-13-2020 at 7:26pm |
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I chose to use the valve covers from the second block I bought from Portland. Now I'm routing the PCV valve to the port on the carb. The PCV valve is on the starboard. On the port cover there is a tube coming from the oil filler neck. I suppose this was connected to the air filter in the previous car app. Question is, if I tie these two openings in the two valve covers together, then route them to the port on the carb, will the lack of restriction on the oil filler, port side, cause the PCV valve not to open on the starboard side and allow fumes to build up under the starboard valve cover? Is this something to worry about? Grazzi amigos.
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1978 Martinique Ford 351 Windsor
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KENO
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Posted: December-06-2020 at 4:41am |
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A rebuild and a grilled cheese sandwich
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William777
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Posted: December-05-2020 at 10:44pm |
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Also thanks Pete and Keno for the info on the bearings and seals. I was able to purchase these items individually, saving $ vs. buying the whole rebuild kit. Thanks indeed gents!
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1978 Martinique Ford 351 Windsor
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William777
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Posted: December-05-2020 at 10:37pm |
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Today was a great day thanks to MourningWood from here on the forum. He graciously invited me to his house to rebuild my raw water pump. We found one of the bearings was completely frozen. He did 99% of the work for which I'm very very grateful! I didn't have the tools to do this and he saved me at least a few hundred by not having to send the pump off to be rebuilt. Not only that but the lady of the house makes a killer grilled cheese sandwich! I'm stoked and so appreciative. Tomorrow I'll re-install the pump and, hopefully, go for a ride. Oh and he painted the pump Ford Blue as well. Great guy.
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1978 Martinique Ford 351 Windsor
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fanofccfan
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Joined: December-13-2009 Location: North Bend NE Status: Offline Points: 1736 |
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Posted: November-24-2020 at 1:27pm |
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I mounted a g21 pump in place of the original on my commander. It was actually very easy with a slight bracket modification. No worries on the old girl becoming obsolete.
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2004 196 LE Ski 1969 Marauder 19 1978 Ski
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KENO
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Posted: November-24-2020 at 1:21pm |
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The most special tool is the press, then some snap ring pliers.
Probably a good move to "keep leaning that way" without a press. It'll be done right, should last a long long time and you won't be wondering if you screwed anything up along the way. In desperate times, there's always a way to make another pump work if necessary
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William777
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Posted: November-24-2020 at 1:11pm |
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Thanks guys. I'm thinking I'd need special tools to remove and replace the bearings.(elaboration anyone?) I've contacted the PumpVender people and they charge a flat $90 plus parts. They sent a part list with prices, and they look about the same as the Sherwood retail prices. Leaning that way. Scary that if this raw water pump were not serviceable my entire boat would be obsolete since there's no replacement.
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1978 Martinique Ford 351 Windsor
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KENO
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Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 10713 |
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Posted: November-24-2020 at 12:56pm |
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Bill
There's a number 8 on the Sherwood seal, making me think it's a Type 8 mechanical seal. Pete will take over from here with the mission of finding you the correct seal for 1/3 the cost of the original equipment Sherwood, including shipping of course
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William777 wrote: