Boats For Sale:
"Blown" Ford 351 |
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tryathlete 
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Joined: April-19-2013 Location: Lake Villa, IL Status: Offline Points: 1797 |
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 Posted: June-18-2021 at 1:28pm |
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It’s the middle of June. I don’t know what a lost season is worth to you, but I’d just go buy a rebuilt trans and get boating. You’ve served your sentence honorably and if you do sort this out, you’ll always have a spare.
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William777
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Joined: October-21-2017 Location: Northern CA Status: Offline Points: 149 |
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Posted: June-18-2021 at 1:21pm |
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Update,
I've taken the transmission out twice and rebuilt it. Still having the same issue with it driving forwards in neutral. Thought maybe the friction plates were too thick due to some manufacturing issues as is the trend these days with the crap coming in from the far east. So I rigged a stop on the output flange and revved it in neutral thinking it might wear a little material off the plates thereby freeing them up. Well, the pressure bent the bolt I used in the rig so it's not a small amount of forward drive there. Way more than a leaky neutral thing. So, after I sunk into another black hole of disappointment, I remembered hammering the air relief valve into its hole on the first rebuild. Thinking maybe I destroyed it and perhaps it's not operating properly. Maybe allowing air inside the tranny to cause the problem? I've ordered a new one. I guess the last possibility is a faulty control valve. Getting close to filling it with cement. I did buy a pressure tester. The pressure in forward and reverse are normal. The pressure in neutral is 0 at idle but when I rev it it buiulds to over 100psi. All pressures being read from the main pressure point on the top of the tranny near the output flange.
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1978 Martinique Ford 351 Windsor
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KENO
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Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 10656 |
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Posted: May-25-2021 at 10:30pm |
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I'd probably call Joe at FFI and talk to him some about your issues, (just the transmission ones.) Tell him to take it easy on you, 'cause you're a hairdresser who dabbles in transmission work 
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MrMcD
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Joined: January-28-2014 Location: Folsom, CA Status: Offline Points: 3594 |
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Posted: May-25-2021 at 1:00pm |
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I put new clutch plates in my 1978 Nautique and it worked right from the first start. You might carefully put a couple hours on it and see if it gets better but it should work already. I have seen dirty neutrals but the only spin slowly in neutral, nothing that would move the boat. I hope other members can offer better news.
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William777
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Joined: October-21-2017 Location: Northern CA Status: Offline Points: 149 |
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Posted: May-25-2021 at 7:27am |
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Thanks Keno, I had a dirty neutral in the old transmission. The prop would spin in neutral a little at idle. In this case it does not spin at idle, only when the engine is revved. It is happening in the water and the boat really wants to go. If it is excess friction(due to new clutch plates being installed?) could I find a way to jam the output flange somehow and rev in neutral(neutral button pulled out) and wear some of the excess friction off?
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1978 Martinique Ford 351 Windsor
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KENO
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Posted: May-25-2021 at 7:03am |
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It sounds like you got yourself a "dirty neutral" there Bill
Seems to me that you're right about the button doing what it's supposed to do. You have excess drag between the forward clutch plates and it'll turn the prop forward with no hydraulic pressure applied.. Is this happening with the boat in the water or on the trailer? If it's on the trailer, put it in the water and in a safe spot where you won't hit anything, rev it in neutral and see if the boat moves forward. It can spin the shaft with no drag from the water while on the trailer and look like it's really screaming along but when it's in the water, it may spin a lot less and not really make the boat move. If you're already describing what it does in the water, you may get some practice taking it apart again |
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William777
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Posted: May-24-2021 at 11:27pm |
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Bought a new pump and a rebuild kit. Al done. Now this: with the neutral button pushed in, engaging the transmission, the boat goes into forward and reverse and will stop the prop from spinning in neutral. With the neutral button pulled out and at idle all good but if I rev the engine somehow the transmission engages and the boat wants to go forward, strongly. The shifter is not moving at the transmission, it remains in the neutral position. The boat goes forward whether the throttle is increased by moving the shifter at the helm forwards or backwards towards the stern. Help please. A buildup of hydraulic pressure from the pump being revved forcing the transmission into some forward default mode? Still searching the net but am finding a lot of linkage solutions. Don't think that is my case. Seems to me the neutral button is doing what it's supposed to do.
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1978 Martinique Ford 351 Windsor
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KENO
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Posted: May-16-2021 at 2:52pm |
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Hey, I remember the MOWFS syndrome...........page 6 of this same thread, but the pictures have disappeared
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William777
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Posted: May-16-2021 at 1:51pm |
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Ok, so the o-ring on the left is a mystery part. I don't know where it came from. I fear it might be a MOFWS (magnet on the flywheel syndrome) On the blowup schematic it looks like part 83 which looks like it goes into part 84, which I did not disassemble. I don't see where else it could go. Also, the pic on the right is the inside of the pump. Do those groves look deep enough to cause a failure? Thanks all.
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1978 Martinique Ford 351 Windsor
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William777
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Posted: May-16-2021 at 1:39pm |
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1978 Martinique Ford 351 Windsor
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KENO
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Posted: May-11-2021 at 6:52am |
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All right William, could you spell this out a little clearer so Pete will understand, that the plate(whatever it's called) fits |
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KENO
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Posted: May-11-2021 at 6:45am |
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Or he could let Pete explain his lack of comprehension.
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Gary S
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Posted: May-10-2021 at 9:55pm |
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Uh oh giving Ken more ammo
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8122pbrainard
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Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Posted: May-10-2021 at 8:50pm |
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William, OK, I'm having a hard time figuring out why the damper plate doesn't fit. As Ken did mention there are only 3 holes to mount it rather than the 6 the original had. Do 3 holes line up? They should as Ken pictured:  |
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tryathlete
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Joined: April-19-2013 Location: Lake Villa, IL Status: Offline Points: 1797 |
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Posted: May-10-2021 at 6:32pm |
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No matter what you’re getting a lot of experience fixing this on your own. Congrats are soon to come. |
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William777
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Posted: May-10-2021 at 6:20pm |
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Damper plate, drive plate, yup thanks, not a pressure plate. Sorry, dangling from the end of my rope here.
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1978 Martinique Ford 351 Windsor
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tryathlete
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Joined: April-19-2013 Location: Lake Villa, IL Status: Offline Points: 1797 |
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Posted: May-10-2021 at 5:28pm |
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Lots of pressure from the family to get that plate on. They’re starving for a boat ride.
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8122pbrainard
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Posted: May-10-2021 at 5:25pm |
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The damper plate?
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William777
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Posted: May-10-2021 at 5:15pm |
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Gobsmacked here. The pressure plate sure did bolt up just as Ken said it would, thank you very much! Gaining access to a press this week to put the snap rings back inside the transmission. Hopefully putting it all back together this weekend and doing some boating. Thank you all.
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1978 Martinique Ford 351 Windsor
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Duane in Indy
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Joined: October-26-2015 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 1578 |
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Posted: May-04-2021 at 9:19pm |
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As always Ken, Nice work. Now go and reinstall your damper plate. My manual has drawings to make the special tools needed to do rebuild. Pres/Rel valve is tricky and requires special tool to disassemble safely.
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Keep it as original as YOU want it
1978 Mustang (modified) |
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swilliams
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Posted: May-04-2021 at 5:41pm |
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Nice save Ken!
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1976 Martinique,350 Omc. 1975 Glastron/Carlson CV16,115 Merc.
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KENO
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Posted: May-04-2021 at 2:26pm |
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I didn't until about 10 minutes ago Now about that other problem,,,,,,,,,,,um, well nevermind
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William777
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Posted: May-04-2021 at 2:23pm |
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OK, I'll wiggle it some more, that sometimes helps with my other problem. I can't believe you have a drawing of that flywheel with the holes marked Keno! That's impressive. Ok, we'll see this Saturday. Thank you!
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1978 Martinique Ford 351 Windsor
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KENO
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Posted: May-04-2021 at 2:16pm |
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Here's a picture Follow the "not very artistic" purple lines to the 3 right holes for mounting the plate to your Ford flywheel |
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KENO
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Posted: May-04-2021 at 1:57pm |
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Keep the DA-106 and empty your shopping cart right now You're only in purgatoryIf you slide and wiggle the plate around enough, you'll find that 3 holes in the plate will line up with 3 holes in the flywheel and you install it with only 3 bolts. It works fine with just 3. You'll have to trim it to fit. Find the right fit first before trimming so that you don't trim it wrong and cut through the wrong holes or anything like that. Use a picture of the pre trimmed106A as a guide Commander or PCM doesn't matter. |
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William777
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Posted: May-04-2021 at 1:55pm |
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 This is the drive plate in the shopping cart on the Nautique site. I'm worried because it's called "PCM" R140001. It states on the site that it's intended for the Borg Warner transmission that I have. But, PCM is not the marinizer I have correct? Mine is Commander. Does this matter in the case of this drive plate?
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1978 Martinique Ford 351 Windsor
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William777
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Posted: May-04-2021 at 1:48pm |
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1978 Martinique Ford 351 Windsor
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William777
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Posted: May-04-2021 at 1:46pm |
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Hello from drive plate hell. The one I took off the boat is shot I believe. The sprocket in the middle is loose and wiggly. I'm gambling that it is the cause of the issues I'm having. There were some pops and slips before the drive went out completely, a sound this thing could make if it was failing. Everything inside the transmission looked new except for some wear on the reverse clutch plate. So, I'm trying to replace the drive plate. I apparently bought the wrong one. I tried to research this all myself but I'm afraid of buying another wrong one. I found part R14001 for $218 (it looks more like the original plate off the boat) on one site that I have in my shopping cart (Nautique Parts Site). The one I bought is on the left in the following picture.(bought from ebasicmarine) It's a DA 106. The DA 106A was not available and I was told the 106 could be cut down to clear the starter but the bolt holes don't line up in any way with the flywheel. The drive plate on the right in the pic is the original. My engine is a Commander with the Borg Warner 71C. Guidance please?
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1978 Martinique Ford 351 Windsor
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KENO
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Posted: April-24-2021 at 7:59pm |
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The thing is a combination pressure regulator and spool valve .
The rotation of the valve lines up with ports to send oil to the forward or the reverse clutches. The big honkim' heavy spring and piston/plunger is the pressure regulator for maintaining proper operating pressure in the transmission. Any excess pressure is bled off to the sump through the oil cooler. You can probably tell that for one, you don't want to try taking it apart without the proper tools and since you compressed the spring and it sprung back, it's not stuck open or closed. Open would cause low system pressures and closed would cause high pressure with no flow through the cooler. Other things like the clutch plates or the pump are a lot more likely to be your problem than a malfunctioning regulator. They're pretty bullet proof.
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William777
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Posted: April-24-2021 at 1:39pm |
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1978 Martinique Ford 351 Windsor
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KENO wrote: