I cannot get this engine to run right |
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21115 |
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Order is correct! Assuming the FO is in fact 18456273. Also assuming the plug wires go to the cylinders marked on the dizzy end of the wires. But is #1 in the right place? That's the real question. It is unlikely to run if it's 180 out, unless combined with the wrong FO. Just confirming that #1 was selected based on rotor position with the engine at TDC on compression stroke. I would also put a timing light on every single wire and confirm they are all getting spark. |
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MrMcD
Grand Poobah Joined: January-28-2014 Location: Folsom, CA Status: Offline Points: 3597 |
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If the photo is you engine those are shaft mounted rocker arm and non adjustable.
With these you tighten and leave them. There is no 3/4 more at that point? At this point I would pull the cap off the distributor and bump the key till you rotor points at the number one location. Verify what direction it turns. CW or CCW Now go to your number one rocker arms, the exhaust and intake rocker should both be up showing both valves are closed and in the fire position. If you reverse the engine a little the intake valve should start opening. If you rotate forward a little the intake will close and both valves remain closed on the power stroke. If you are off you may be 180 degrees out and that is an easy fix just relocating your plug wires or if you choose lift the distributor and rotate it 180. Verify the basics and it will fre right up. |
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KooK
Senior Member Joined: February-10-2014 Location: Iowa Status: Offline Points: 143 |
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Correct |
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KooK
Senior Member Joined: February-10-2014 Location: Iowa Status: Offline Points: 143 |
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A few rockers had to be shimmed, but they are all right around 3/4 turn. I can twist the pushrods when the valves should be closed meaning there isn't enough pressure on the pushrod to open/hang a valve. |
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MrMcD
Grand Poobah Joined: January-28-2014 Location: Folsom, CA Status: Offline Points: 3597 |
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http://correctcraftfan.com/forum/uploads/14785/firing.png
If this picture is of your engine those are non adjustable rocker arms. You just tighten them down and leave them. |
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KooK
Senior Member Joined: February-10-2014 Location: Iowa Status: Offline Points: 143 |
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However, you can adjust preload by adding shims if you need. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/fms-m-6529-a302?seid=srese1&cm_mmc=pla-google-_-shopping-_-srese1-_-ford-performance-parts&gclid=CjwKEAjwytLKBRCX547gve7EsE4SJAD3IZV6_pUm97EaBYzOjBWi18PCQkFEC0lzlXhT-VmbZdzyZBoCoiPw_wcB But yes, they are pedestal rocker arms meaning there is no adjusting beyond shims and new pushrods. |
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Dreaming
Platinum Member Joined: May-21-2010 Location: Tacoma, WA Status: Offline Points: 1870 |
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So something you said about the carb also has me questioning your fuel situation. IF the needles don't make any difference at idle, you are not running on the idle circuit. Whether the firing order is correct or not, you need to do some carb work to get that dialed in as well. I believe a fresh rebuild calls for 1.5 turns out on the needles to get a base run , then dial in with vacuum from there.
I would do the spark check as well, it would be good to confirm that some how your EI module isn't missing a couple of cylinders because of some mysterious electronic glitch. |
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SNobsessed
Grand Poobah Joined: October-21-2007 Location: IA Status: Offline Points: 7102 |
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OK, now I get it. The last diagram was std rotation & not pertinent.
Any chance the cam timing chain could be off a tooth? |
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“Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.”
Ben Franklin |
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KooK
Senior Member Joined: February-10-2014 Location: Iowa Status: Offline Points: 143 |
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I'm very glad somebody took notice that I said that about the idle screws. I am planning on taking the carb off here in probably an hour and going back through it again. I'm just confused because it wasn't dirty in the first place, yet this entire time I've felt like it's a fuel issue, just a weird one. I just got back from picking something up to help me properly check spark. SNobsessed: There is absolutely 0% chance that the timing is off a tooth. You'll just have to trust me on this one. |
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 10680 |
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Well in this entire thread it sounds like you have everything under control when you get asked questions but...................you have a crappy running engine and have put up info that's been confusing , backwards and hard to follow.
You've been randomly unhooking plug wires for some reason known only to you and running on 4 cylinders or so . I see in old posts your carburetor was a total mess, totally missing the main jets among other things, but you seemed to have straightened it out How about an easy to read synopsis of what you've done and feel is right so far, it'll help you as much as it'll help people trying to help you. |
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MrMcD
Grand Poobah Joined: January-28-2014 Location: Folsom, CA Status: Offline Points: 3597 |
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Carb problems can make an engine run poorly but with a properly tuned V-8 you can disconnect the fuel to the carb completely, dump a little fuel down the throat and turn the key. The engine will start and even sound strong till the dumped fuel is burned and gone and it stalls out..
I have run a properly tuned engine with no fuel hooked to it but spraying fuel down the carb with a small Lighter Fluid can. I was able to make a 350 Chevy idle just fine with a lighter can spray down the carb. A carb making it run as bad as you present would also be fuming black smoke out the tail pipes or not supplying enough fuel and starving it. Splash some fuel down the throat and turn the key, see if it makes a difference. It still sounds to me like timing or spark is not in the right place at the right time, but I have not heard it run and you have so this is a guess. If you correct the basics it will run. Camshaft timed properly to the crankshaft Distributor timed properly to the number 1 compression stroke. Distributor rotation CW or CCW established and plug wires properly installed with fire order matching your engine. Compression test confirming your timing is set correctly. All 8 cylinders should be within 10 psi of each other. It would be nice if you have a friend with a known good distributor you could drop in and rule out a spark issue. |
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KooK
Senior Member Joined: February-10-2014 Location: Iowa Status: Offline Points: 143 |
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Alright, let me write you a book here, starting all the way back.
Last season: When initially purchased: (Last July/August) 1979 Correct Craft Mustang 17 Bone stock 302 w/ electronic ignition Condition: Boat ran decent enough, would top out around 43-45mph, accel enrichment feels good, WOT feels good, partial throttle feels good. Does puff some black smoke, oil needs to be changed probably every 15-20 hours because it gets thinned out so bad from over fueling. Has idle issues, especially when idling for longer periods of time. Solution: Take carb out, rebuild and verify everything. Notes: Main jets appear to be missing, however that was an error on my part. There was a mix up with the rebuild kit and it ended up being the carb was apart for a week and somehow the jets were moved from the location I put them. The carb rebuild had no effect on how the boat ran. Idle screws act as if they are unreactive as they do not cause a dip or increase in RPM no matter where they are set. However I can watch the mains start to flow when the idle screws are turned out too far. This is my first experience dealing with a Holley carburetor. Additional notes: Leakdown test performed to check the health of the engine, at 100psi I am getting 40-50% compression loss through the rings. Engine seems to run fine, but requires a rebuild in the future. Current season: 1979 Correct Craft Mustang 17 Fully refreshed short block (block decked) Forged Hypereutectic pistons (Ring's filed for n/a as listed by manufacturer) Ford GT40P heads (fresh rebuild on both, heads decked) Cylinder head volume measured at ~57cc for all ports. Calculated 10:1 compression ratio. Holley Red Marine electric fuel pump + fuel pressure regulator set at 5psi Notes on build: A few rockers needed to be shimmed after the heads and block were decked. Valvetrain geometry verified with SBF specialist Engine wiring completely redone (everything hooked up exactly the same) Under dash wiring completely redone Carburetor and ignition components remain untouched since last season Initial fire: Fired without issue, no valvetrain noise, but it lopes like an NHRA car. Still has idle issues so the low leak down test results did not seem to contribute to idle problems as much as anticipated. Ignition timing set to 10 BTDC at 650rpm, idle screws still unreactive in carb. Current troubleshooting checklist: Valvetrain - no hanging valves, no tight pushrods, nothing out of the ordinary Ignition - all 8 cylinders receive spark, firing order verified as 1-8-4-5-6-2-7-3. Timing properly set so rotor faces #1 plug tower on #1 TDC compression stroke Cylinder misfire test - Removed spark plug wires as engine is running to listen for change in idle rpm. Cylinders 2-3-5-6 do not cause a drop in RPM when spark plugs wires are pulled from cap. Ignition test - Hooked each plug wire up to spark plug tester (Lisle 50850), all 8 cylinders are sparking Leakdown test - Even with the rings not seated and a leaking o-ring because I had to modify an anti-fouler plug, it still shows a healthier leakdown than before it was rebuilt. |
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MourningWood
Gold Member Joined: June-13-2014 Location: NorCal Status: Offline Points: 886 |
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OK, so if you remove spark plug wires and no change in how engine runs, then sounds like 4 cylinders are not firing. Simple test:
Connect a timing light with an inductive clamp (clips over the spark plug wire) and run motor with light connected to cylinder 1. Note light flashing. Clip the inductive connector to each spark plug wire as motor runs and notice (or not) light flashes. Any order, doesn't matter. Dead holes immediately identified. |
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KooK
Senior Member Joined: February-10-2014 Location: Iowa Status: Offline Points: 143 |
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Actually as you were writing that I was out testing for spark on each cylinder. I used an old spark tester that looks like this, hooked it to a ground and all 8 cylinders do in fact spark consistently. Timing light should show the same results in this case.
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SNobsessed
Grand Poobah Joined: October-21-2007 Location: IA Status: Offline Points: 7102 |
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Have you done a compression test after the rebuild? Doesn't seem logical to me that the corner cyls would get fuel but not the middle ones. Unless there is a problem with the intake manifold gasket or something odd like that.
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“Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.”
Ben Franklin |
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KooK
Senior Member Joined: February-10-2014 Location: Iowa Status: Offline Points: 143 |
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Did a leakdown test, somebody broke my compression tester years ago and I haven't replaced it. Leakdown numbers show decent for not having the rings completely seated (80+ psi with the leakdown initial set at 100psi). You mention the intake manifold gasket, there are no problems there. I'm using an ARP intake manifold stud kit so there is no chance they would not be lined up. |
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MrMcD
Grand Poobah Joined: January-28-2014 Location: Folsom, CA Status: Offline Points: 3597 |
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Sounds like your carb is not feeding correctly. Normally if your idle screws will not adjust it means the throttle plates are open too much for the idle screws to work.
Did this carb have a power valve in it? If the power valve goes out it can offer some strange issues. 4 cylinders not firing or helping the engine run points to a timing event issue. The plugs are sparking as you verified but they are not sparking at the right time to help the engine run. Pull the spark plugs and study them. Make sure they are still gapped properly and able to fire. They may be plugged or misfiring due to over fuel. They should give you a clue. If you can't read the plugs post a picture and we can help. |
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MrMcD
Grand Poobah Joined: January-28-2014 Location: Folsom, CA Status: Offline Points: 3597 |
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One more item you may already know, the flooding carb probably wasted your last set of rings. Get it fixed before it hurts your brand new engine.
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KooK
Senior Member Joined: February-10-2014 Location: Iowa Status: Offline Points: 143 |
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These plugs have <5 minutes of run time of them. Labelled according to which cylinder they went in.j
I realize how rich some of them are, honestly when this set was in, the fuel pressure was set at 4psi, I had reverified float height, I closed the butterflies off and only cracked them open until it was idling at about 625-650 rpm. I'm not sure what else to do because when I rebuilt the carb I don't think I saw idle jets (It's been a good 3-4 months at least since I had it tore down and I can't 100% recall, I just remember there wasn't much adjustment I could do). You mentioned a power valve earlier. I replaced it with a new Holley 6.5 unit. Like I said, I'm ass backwards when it comes to Holley carbs because I've only ever messed with Webers where I have jetting for the bowl, the idle, main jets, accelerator pump jets, emulsion tubes, and air correction as well as venturii's I can swap out. I'm scared to keep running the engine for testing because I'm afraid of washing the cylinders if the spark plugs come out looking like this. |
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KooK
Senior Member Joined: February-10-2014 Location: Iowa Status: Offline Points: 143 |
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Driving me nuts, literally keeping me awake late thinking about it. Before I go to bed I pulled the bowls off and took a few pictures.
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MrMcD
Grand Poobah Joined: January-28-2014 Location: Folsom, CA Status: Offline Points: 3597 |
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If it backfired on start up, even one time the power valve could be toast.
That would allow fuel to run into the manifold. You may not know that the idle adjustment screws on a Holley adjust the fuel not the air. You close them down to reduce the amount of fuel at idle. On your Webbers you open them up to increase the amount of Air. I don't know carbs well so I hope some of the experts on here can help. I wish we had compression numbers to compare with the bad looking plugs. I think any Advance, Autozone or O'Reilly will loan a gauge. |
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 10680 |
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[QUOTE=KooK]
In this picture you're missing the o ring on the transfer tube from the accelerator pump. That's the little tube right above the power valve. Maybe you took it off, maybe it wasn't there That'll give a very rich condition while it's running if that o ring is left out and make for spark plugs that look like yours and make the idle screws ineffective and make a crappy running engine. |
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oldcuda
Senior Member Joined: June-22-2010 Status: Offline Points: 474 |
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Wrong or miss aligned intake gaskets? I would pull intake and check seal since heads were decked.
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KooK
Senior Member Joined: February-10-2014 Location: Iowa Status: Offline Points: 143 |
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Boooooooooooooooooooooooooom, that was it. It runs better than it ever has. I have no idea if that o-ring was there in the first place but my God it's rock solid now... Thank you for pointing that out, holy hell! |
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Bri892001
Grand Poobah Joined: September-27-2008 Location: Boston MA Status: Offline Points: 4945 |
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Wow! Impressive eye by Ken.
I was following this thread and was not expecting that to be the solution. |
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MrMcD
Grand Poobah Joined: January-28-2014 Location: Folsom, CA Status: Offline Points: 3597 |
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BAM!!!!! KENO, you are the man!
That was a great catch! I saw that and ASSUMED he had taken it off or it popped off on tear down. Never assume I guess. Nice work. KooK congratulations, send Keno some Beer! |
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SNobsessed
Grand Poobah Joined: October-21-2007 Location: IA Status: Offline Points: 7102 |
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What a happy ending, glad for you that it wasn't something more expensive.
So after you get it back together, how about posting a photo? |
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“Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.”
Ben Franklin |
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21115 |
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Damn Ken
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samudj01
Gold Member Joined: March-10-2009 Location: NC Status: Offline Points: 941 |
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Ken coming in clutch again! I was following this thread too and was hoping that would be the fix. A great outcome. Have fun this weekend and yes, some pics please.
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78 Ski Tique, 72 Skier w/302's, 93 SN w/351 & 17 GS22 w/zr409
Previous - 99 Sport Nautique w/GT40 and 87 Martinique w/351 |
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phatsat67
Grand Poobah Joined: March-13-2006 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 6148 |
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Ken got those Eagle eyes. Good job.
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