I cannot get this engine to run right
Printed From: CorrectCraftFan.com
Category: Repairs and Maintenance
Forum Name: Engine Repair
Forum Discription: Engine problems and solutions
URL: http://www.CorrectCraftFan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=41382
Printed Date: April-27-2024 at 1:51am
Topic: I cannot get this engine to run right
Posted By: KooK
Subject: I cannot get this engine to run right
Date Posted: June-29-2017 at 1:15am
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1979 Correct Craft Mustang 17 Commander 302 Holley 4160 Holley Red (Marine grade) set at 5psi 'electronic point' conversion (previous owner installed, no idea what brand) Engine is fresh, literally 0 hours on it. Everything has been checked, rechecked, and triple checked. I had issues with it running like crap down low before I rebuilt it, I tossed it up to the fact that I had 50-60% leakdown on all 8 cylinders at 100psi. I can unplug cylinders 5, 6, 2, 3 and it barely makes a difference to how the engine runs. I honestly feel like it's a carb issue but I'm confused as hell because I was meticulous rebuilding it, and if it has me confused that it's cylinders 2 and 3, and not 1 and 2. I honestly have no idea where to go at the moment. I'm so used to sequential fuel injection and coil on plug builds that I am beating my head against the wall because this should be simple. I'm going to do another leakdown test tomorrow, I have to get an adapter though because my plug wont fit in GT40p heads. Edit: I really do feel like it's a carb issue though because I cannot get the idle screws to react in any way. I never could before I rebuilt the carb, I never could before I rebuilt the engine, I still can't. |
Replies:
Posted By: fanofccfan
Date Posted: June-29-2017 at 1:30am
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Electronic ignition good? Some can deal one fits. ------------- 2004 196 LE Ski 1969 Marauder 19 1978 Ski |
Posted By: MourningWood
Date Posted: June-29-2017 at 1:30am
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Is there even a slight chance that the wrong cam was used? Reverse rotation? More common, there are 2 commonly used Ford small block firing orders. |
Posted By: KooK
Date Posted: June-29-2017 at 1:56am
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fanofccfan: I did some searching after you said that, didn't realize people had issues with them. I'll probably run to the store tomorrow and grab the stuff to convert it back to using points. Does it matter if it's automotive or marine in this case, do you know? MourningWood: I'm 100% positive what I have is the correct camshaft. |
Posted By: Dreaming
Date Posted: June-29-2017 at 2:24am
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correct cam shaft is one thing, correct firing order is different., and I think that is what MW is driving at. You can confirm your firing order by rotating the crank and feeling which order the cylinders get their compression stroke in. This is the most common error that is easily over looked, assuming the cylinders are numbered differently than they are can be a contributing factor. did you rebuild the carb? or is it the same condition as previously set? if so, and you suspect a fuel problem, yank the carb and get it cleaned up and rebuilt. If you did t he engine by yourself, a carb should be no problem as long as you pay attention to the little details. Carb kits are less than $100 so it is a relatively cheap fix if that is the issue also a good reminder - #1 on the distributor cap doesnt have a specific place, as long as it lines up with th position of the rotor on the compression stroke of cyl # 1, check the direction that the rotor rotates and follow that direction with your firing order. - you need to set up your carb idle with a vacuum guage, have you done that yet? - cam break in is really important, so you want to get everything set before you run the engine for the first 20 mins. you need to run consistantly at +2000 rpm. and you want to get the oil pressure up first so you don't have a dry start. - can you confirm your compression now, after the rebuild? if a cam lobe is wiped out from a poor start, it could cause the crappy running condition as well. I find that talking through something can help me find the issue, so go ahead and walk us through all that you have checked and how you checked it, we may be able to spot your oversight and point you in the right direction. Keep your chin up, this happens to everyone from time to time  |
Posted By: KooK
Date Posted: June-29-2017 at 2:45am
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Firing order is correct, I checked it probably 5 times. I have not set my carb idle with a vacuum gauge. Truthfully the only carbs I have ever used in my life have all been Spanish and Italian Webers. I'm 1000% used to doing things by ear so the use of a vacuum gauge to do anything other than sync is foreign to me. However I still think the carb should react when the idle screws are messed with in some way. Doesn't matter if they're seated or 5 turns out, it's like they do nothing. I use the hell out of moly lube when assembling an engine, and I did prime it before it ever turned over. This is the same cam/lifters/pushrods/rockers that I used before the rebuild, I just cleaned them up and verified measurements. Everything went back exactly where it came from. I cannot confirm compression or leakdown until I can get and modify an adapter tomorrow. Also, I rebuilt the carb back in March. All the passages flow properly, everything is cleaned, everything has a place and everything is in its place. Floats were measured and remeasured. Honestly everything looked fine. |
Posted By: KooK
Date Posted: June-29-2017 at 3:39am
Peaked inside the distributor before I went to bed and what fresh hell is this. Yeah they replaced it with an electronic ignition setup, and the lobes are gone so I'm pretty sure I can't put points back in it...
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Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: June-29-2017 at 3:46am
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Using the same cam takes some guesswork away but not all. We know this cam works when properly timed to this engine, your 302. The cam sprocket could be 180 degrees off to the crank sprocket. With the valve covers off this could be checked easy. With them on checking will get tricky. A compression check will tell you if the cam is timed correctly to the camshaft IF the lifters are adjusted properly. I helped a friend get his 302 running. When I got there it was all messed up and would not start. I checked compression and it was very low. I asked questions and found out the guy had never before adjusted hydraulic lifters and had them all cranked down till the valves were hung open. Unfortunately by the time I was called in he had already drained the battery trying to start the engine. He had already wiped a couple cam lobes so after we got it started a couple lifters would adjust to be quiet and then start tapping a minute later. Classic sign of the cam going flat. I installed a new cam and lifters and it now purrs. I hope yours does not have this issue. How did you adjust your used lifters? As Dreaming pointed out the cam if not factory could have the 302 fire order or the 351W fire order, they do differ. You need to know what cam you installed. Many performance cams use the 351W fire order. I'm not a fan of moly lube on assembly. You want to use assembly lube. Moly lube can actually repel oil on start up where assembly lube mixes well with Oil on start up so you don't have a transition from one to the other. Sealed Power makes a quality assembly lube. Part # LL-5. It meets the OE manufacturers qualifications for assembly lube. GM, Ford, Chrysler, Mercedes, BMW, International, Detroit, Cummins Etc. Companies that build thousands of engines demand a quality assembly lube I follow their lead. I think Comp Cams sells a good assembly lube also. Also an older Nautique will be reverse rotation. Make sure the fire order is set up based on the direction your distributor rotates. Did you replace the starter? We have seen guys install a standard rotation starter in a reverse rotation engine. They won't start in reverse. I hope your issue is simple and a quick fix, these are just some more ideas to rule out. Mark ------------- |
Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: June-29-2017 at 3:50am
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If you are getting spark to the plugs assume that distributor is working. If no spark, plan B is in effect. ------------- |
Posted By: KooK
Date Posted: June-29-2017 at 4:05am
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The valvetrain was set with an old school method. When the pushrod is no longer able to move up/down between the lifter and rocker, make sure the wrench turns less than 1 full turn before it's tight. Shim the rocker if it goes too far. All rockers are set to about 3/4 turn. Make sure the pushrod spins with the rocker tightened down, this will let you know if there is pressure being applied to the valve (giving you a hanging valve). All this is simply to set the preload. Also, we're a little beyond using the moly vs assembly lube at the moment, I understand what you're saying though. It should be the factory cam, I'm not sure if the engine was ever opened prior to me getting it, I can tell the oil pan was resealed at least, but beyond that it all looked like factory internals. The camshaft and valvetrain never left my shop as the block/heads/rods/pistons went to the machine shop. I followed the firing order as listed below. 
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Posted By: KooK
Date Posted: June-29-2017 at 4:08am
| *deleted* |
Posted By: KooK
Date Posted: June-29-2017 at 4:14am
For future reference if anybody digs this up in a search, here is the firing order difference between the 302 and 351.
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Posted By: KooK
Date Posted: June-29-2017 at 4:44am
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I couldn't wait for the morning, I went and verified, it is 1 3 7 2 6 5 4 8 going CCW. According to the manual I have a 351 camshaft, but according to my valve cover which clearly states "Model 4V 302 Commander" that is the stock 302 firing order. So, my firing order is correct. I verified this with the camshaft (valve covers off, rotating engine). |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: June-29-2017 at 7:31am
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13726548 is a standard rotation firing order. The boat would have had a reverse rotation engine in it originally with the 18456273 FO. How are you determining where to put plug wire #1 on the cap? Have you positively verified you have spark at all 8cyl? If not, that would indicate the EI kit is giving you problems and not triggering all the time. Possible bad electronics, possible magnet or spacing issues. Tough to troubleshoot without knowing the brand. Sadly, most people throw out the points plate and cam when converting, making it impossible to convert back (a new distributor may be in your future). |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: June-29-2017 at 8:34am
For future reference you should at least get it right and have this say "Here is the firing order difference between an EARLY 302 and a 351"  Later 302's use the same cam and firing order as the 351 You could also mention that the firing orders shown are for standard rotation engines. |
KooK wrote:Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: June-29-2017 at 8:44am
You seem to be saying that you have a reverse rotation engine with the later 302 firing order which is the same as a 351. If that's the case why are you saying you verified the correct firing order to be 1 3 7 2 6 5 4 8 going CCW. I'll put it in all caps.......... THAT"S A NORMAL ROTATION FIRING ORDER. like TRB mentioned Looking at the time of your post, I figure you're tired and need to look at things again this morning You want the order to be 1 8 4 5 6 2 7 3 going CCW around the cap if you have a reverse rotation engine And.........your rotor should be spinning CCW when the engine is cranking. |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: June-29-2017 at 8:49am
| Your distributor is a Prestolite and with that reluctor wheel where you're expecting the missing points cam to be it tells me it's a Prestolite electronic module. You only show the bottom of the plate. Flip the plate back down and take a picture to really verify that it's a Prestolite module. |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: June-29-2017 at 8:59am
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Also you talk about your lifter adjustment, do you have an adjustable valve train or is it the stock Ford setup that's non adjustable.? Your description of valve adjustment makes it sound like it's adjustable because it sounds like the description for adjusting Chevy valves, not Ford which aren't adjustable without going to aftermarket parts, shims etc. edit after reading your description a few times it sounds good as far ar the lifter adjustment. |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: June-29-2017 at 9:29am
May be a dumb question but you are familiar with Ford cylinder numbering right?
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Posted By: SNobsessed
Date Posted: June-29-2017 at 10:00am
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There is a gap adjustment on that dizzy. It needs to be .010 inch between reluctor & pickup. You are supposed to use a brass feeler gage. Just FYI. Where in Iowa are you located? ------------- “Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.” Ben Franklin |
Posted By: KooK
Date Posted: June-29-2017 at 1:55pm
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SNobsessed: Des Moines, if you're offering to take a peak at it I will, by all means, bring it by regardless of where you are in Iowa. KENO: Ford is the only domestic manufacturer that I work with. I am familiar with them and their cylinder arrangement. Also, the firing order is 1 8 4 5 6 2 7 3 as you stated. I was writing that last night at 1-2am and got my numbers backwards. TRBenj: I am determining cylinder 1 visually by lining the cap up with the rotor, and sending that wire to cylinder one and going from there. 
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Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: June-29-2017 at 2:06pm
I don't understand. What are you lining the cap and rotor up to? Please elaborate. |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: June-29-2017 at 2:13pm
I think I understood! He states "that wire to #1" That would be correct as long as #1 is TDC on the compression stroke. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: June-29-2017 at 2:19pm
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Well that's one of the Prestolite modules you have there. I figure you mean that with #1 at TDC on the compression stroke you're seeing where the rotor is pointing and that terminal is your #1 |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: June-29-2017 at 2:23pm
That is one option (the correct one), let's confirm that's what was done vs following this diagram.
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Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: June-29-2017 at 2:23pm
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Here we go again, me and Pete agreeing with each other
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Posted By: KooK
Date Posted: June-29-2017 at 2:25pm
Exactly. I mean the engine runs, just not on all 8. With it running I did set it to 10 degrees BTDC at the specified RPM. I'm pretty sure the firing order is correct. |
Posted By: KooK
Date Posted: June-29-2017 at 2:58pm
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Posted By: SNobsessed
Date Posted: June-29-2017 at 3:19pm
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Well the order is backwards in the photo compared to the diagram. That could be it. I am in Waterloo/CF area. ------------- “Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.” Ben Franklin |
Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: June-29-2017 at 3:21pm
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Your lifter adjustment is perfect for new lifters. If I read this correctly you installed the used lifters on the used camshaft. If this was done each lifter should be reinstalled on the exact lifter bore it originally ran in. If you mixed the lifters up you will need to do a cam breakin on start up. Installing used lifters takes a different adjustment. With previously run lifters you tighten them only till you lose up and down play and you are done. You may have bottomed out a couple lifters hanging valves partially open. If the engine is running you can back them off while running and adjust them. It is messy, oil will squirt from the push rods. Special clips are available to help or you can make a splash guard out of cardboard to avoid mess. I hope you don't need to do this. ------------- |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: June-29-2017 at 3:28pm
Order is correct! Assuming the FO is in fact 18456273. Also assuming the plug wires go to the cylinders marked on the dizzy end of the wires. But is #1 in the right place? That's the real question. It is unlikely to run if it's 180 out, unless combined with the wrong FO. Just confirming that #1 was selected based on rotor position with the engine at TDC on compression stroke. I would also put a timing light on every single wire and confirm they are all getting spark. |
Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: June-29-2017 at 3:40pm
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If the photo is you engine those are shaft mounted rocker arm and non adjustable. With these you tighten and leave them. There is no 3/4 more at that point? At this point I would pull the cap off the distributor and bump the key till you rotor points at the number one location. Verify what direction it turns. CW or CCW Now go to your number one rocker arms, the exhaust and intake rocker should both be up showing both valves are closed and in the fire position. If you reverse the engine a little the intake valve should start opening. If you rotate forward a little the intake will close and both valves remain closed on the power stroke. If you are off you may be 180 degrees out and that is an easy fix just relocating your plug wires or if you choose lift the distributor and rotate it 180. Verify the basics and it will fre right up. ------------- |
Posted By: KooK
Date Posted: June-29-2017 at 3:45pm
Correct |
Posted By: KooK
Date Posted: June-29-2017 at 3:48pm
A few rockers had to be shimmed, but they are all right around 3/4 turn. I can twist the pushrods when the valves should be closed meaning there isn't enough pressure on the pushrod to open/hang a valve. |
Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: June-29-2017 at 4:53pm
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http://correctcraftfan.com/forum/uploads/14785/firing.png If this picture is of your engine those are non adjustable rocker arms. You just tighten them down and leave them. ------------- |
Posted By: KooK
Date Posted: June-29-2017 at 6:00pm
However, you can adjust preload by adding shims if you need. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/fms-m-6529-a302?seid=srese1&cm_mmc=pla-google-_-shopping-_-srese1-_-ford-performance-parts&gclid=CjwKEAjwytLKBRCX547gve7EsE4SJAD3IZV6_pUm97EaBYzOjBWi18PCQkFEC0lzlXhT-VmbZdzyZBoCoiPw_wcB But yes, they are pedestal rocker arms meaning there is no adjusting beyond shims and new pushrods. |
Posted By: Dreaming
Date Posted: June-29-2017 at 6:57pm
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So something you said about the carb also has me questioning your fuel situation. IF the needles don't make any difference at idle, you are not running on the idle circuit. Whether the firing order is correct or not, you need to do some carb work to get that dialed in as well. I believe a fresh rebuild calls for 1.5 turns out on the needles to get a base run , then dial in with vacuum from there. I would do the spark check as well, it would be good to confirm that some how your EI module isn't missing a couple of cylinders because of some mysterious electronic glitch. |
Posted By: SNobsessed
Date Posted: June-29-2017 at 7:02pm
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OK, now I get it. The last diagram was std rotation & not pertinent. Any chance the cam timing chain could be off a tooth? ------------- “Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.” Ben Franklin |
Posted By: KooK
Date Posted: June-29-2017 at 7:46pm
I'm very glad somebody took notice that I said that about the idle screws. I am planning on taking the carb off here in probably an hour and going back through it again. I'm just confused because it wasn't dirty in the first place, yet this entire time I've felt like it's a fuel issue, just a weird one. I just got back from picking something up to help me properly check spark. SNobsessed: There is absolutely 0% chance that the timing is off a tooth. You'll just have to trust me on this one. |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: June-29-2017 at 8:16pm
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Well in this entire thread it sounds like you have everything under control when you get asked questions but...................you have a crappy running engine and have put up info that's been confusing , backwards and hard to follow. You've been randomly unhooking plug wires for some reason known only to you and running on 4 cylinders or so . I see in old posts your carburetor was a total mess, totally missing the main jets among other things, but you seemed to have straightened it out How about an easy to read synopsis of what you've done and feel is right so far, it'll help you as much as it'll help people trying to help you. |
Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: June-29-2017 at 8:39pm
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Carb problems can make an engine run poorly but with a properly tuned V-8 you can disconnect the fuel to the carb completely, dump a little fuel down the throat and turn the key. The engine will start and even sound strong till the dumped fuel is burned and gone and it stalls out.. I have run a properly tuned engine with no fuel hooked to it but spraying fuel down the carb with a small Lighter Fluid can. I was able to make a 350 Chevy idle just fine with a lighter can spray down the carb. A carb making it run as bad as you present would also be fuming black smoke out the tail pipes or not supplying enough fuel and starving it. Splash some fuel down the throat and turn the key, see if it makes a difference. It still sounds to me like timing or spark is not in the right place at the right time, but I have not heard it run and you have so this is a guess. If you correct the basics it will run. Camshaft timed properly to the crankshaft Distributor timed properly to the number 1 compression stroke. Distributor rotation CW or CCW established and plug wires properly installed with fire order matching your engine. Compression test confirming your timing is set correctly. All 8 cylinders should be within 10 psi of each other. It would be nice if you have a friend with a known good distributor you could drop in and rule out a spark issue. ------------- |
Posted By: KooK
Date Posted: June-29-2017 at 9:58pm
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Alright, let me write you a book here, starting all the way back. Last season: When initially purchased: (Last July/August) 1979 Correct Craft Mustang 17 Bone stock 302 w/ electronic ignition Condition: Boat ran decent enough, would top out around 43-45mph, accel enrichment feels good, WOT feels good, partial throttle feels good. Does puff some black smoke, oil needs to be changed probably every 15-20 hours because it gets thinned out so bad from over fueling. Has idle issues, especially when idling for longer periods of time. Solution: Take carb out, rebuild and verify everything. Notes: Main jets appear to be missing, however that was an error on my part. There was a mix up with the rebuild kit and it ended up being the carb was apart for a week and somehow the jets were moved from the location I put them. The carb rebuild had no effect on how the boat ran. Idle screws act as if they are unreactive as they do not cause a dip or increase in RPM no matter where they are set. However I can watch the mains start to flow when the idle screws are turned out too far. This is my first experience dealing with a Holley carburetor. Additional notes: Leakdown test performed to check the health of the engine, at 100psi I am getting 40-50% compression loss through the rings. Engine seems to run fine, but requires a rebuild in the future. Current season: 1979 Correct Craft Mustang 17 Fully refreshed short block (block decked) Forged Hypereutectic pistons (Ring's filed for n/a as listed by manufacturer) Ford GT40P heads (fresh rebuild on both, heads decked) Cylinder head volume measured at ~57cc for all ports. Calculated 10:1 compression ratio. Holley Red Marine electric fuel pump + fuel pressure regulator set at 5psi Notes on build: A few rockers needed to be shimmed after the heads and block were decked. Valvetrain geometry verified with SBF specialist Engine wiring completely redone (everything hooked up exactly the same) Under dash wiring completely redone Carburetor and ignition components remain untouched since last season Initial fire: Fired without issue, no valvetrain noise, but it lopes like an NHRA car. Still has idle issues so the low leak down test results did not seem to contribute to idle problems as much as anticipated. Ignition timing set to 10 BTDC at 650rpm, idle screws still unreactive in carb. Current troubleshooting checklist: Valvetrain - no hanging valves, no tight pushrods, nothing out of the ordinary Ignition - all 8 cylinders receive spark, firing order verified as 1-8-4-5-6-2-7-3. Timing properly set so rotor faces #1 plug tower on #1 TDC compression stroke Cylinder misfire test - Removed spark plug wires as engine is running to listen for change in idle rpm. Cylinders 2-3-5-6 do not cause a drop in RPM when spark plugs wires are pulled from cap. Ignition test - Hooked each plug wire up to spark plug tester (Lisle 50850), all 8 cylinders are sparking Leakdown test - Even with the rings not seated and a leaking o-ring because I had to modify an anti-fouler plug, it still shows a healthier leakdown than before it was rebuilt. |
Posted By: MourningWood
Date Posted: June-29-2017 at 10:31pm
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OK, so if you remove spark plug wires and no change in how engine runs, then sounds like 4 cylinders are not firing. Simple test: Connect a timing light with an inductive clamp (clips over the spark plug wire) and run motor with light connected to cylinder 1. Note light flashing. Clip the inductive connector to each spark plug wire as motor runs and notice (or not) light flashes. Any order, doesn't matter. Dead holes immediately identified. |
Posted By: KooK
Date Posted: June-29-2017 at 10:35pm
Actually as you were writing that I was out testing for spark on each cylinder. I used an old spark tester that looks like this, hooked it to a ground and all 8 cylinders do in fact spark consistently. Timing light should show the same results in this case.
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Posted By: SNobsessed
Date Posted: June-29-2017 at 10:57pm
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Have you done a compression test after the rebuild? Doesn't seem logical to me that the corner cyls would get fuel but not the middle ones. Unless there is a problem with the intake manifold gasket or something odd like that. ------------- “Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.” Ben Franklin |
Posted By: KooK
Date Posted: June-30-2017 at 12:05am
Did a leakdown test, somebody broke my compression tester years ago and I haven't replaced it. Leakdown numbers show decent for not having the rings completely seated (80+ psi with the leakdown initial set at 100psi). You mention the intake manifold gasket, there are no problems there. I'm using an ARP intake manifold stud kit so there is no chance they would not be lined up. |
Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: June-30-2017 at 3:09am
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Sounds like your carb is not feeding correctly. Normally if your idle screws will not adjust it means the throttle plates are open too much for the idle screws to work. Did this carb have a power valve in it? If the power valve goes out it can offer some strange issues. 4 cylinders not firing or helping the engine run points to a timing event issue. The plugs are sparking as you verified but they are not sparking at the right time to help the engine run. Pull the spark plugs and study them. Make sure they are still gapped properly and able to fire. They may be plugged or misfiring due to over fuel. They should give you a clue. If you can't read the plugs post a picture and we can help. ------------- |
Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: June-30-2017 at 3:12am
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One more item you may already know, the flooding carb probably wasted your last set of rings. Get it fixed before it hurts your brand new engine. ------------- |
Posted By: KooK
Date Posted: June-30-2017 at 3:27am
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These plugs have <5 minutes of run time of them. Labelled according to which cylinder they went in.j I realize how rich some of them are, honestly when this set was in, the fuel pressure was set at 4psi, I had reverified float height, I closed the butterflies off and only cracked them open until it was idling at about 625-650 rpm. I'm not sure what else to do because when I rebuilt the carb I don't think I saw idle jets (It's been a good 3-4 months at least since I had it tore down and I can't 100% recall, I just remember there wasn't much adjustment I could do). You mentioned a power valve earlier. I replaced it with a new Holley 6.5 unit. Like I said, I'm ass backwards when it comes to Holley carbs because I've only ever messed with Webers where I have jetting for the bowl, the idle, main jets, accelerator pump jets, emulsion tubes, and air correction as well as venturii's I can swap out. I'm scared to keep running the engine for testing because I'm afraid of washing the cylinders if the spark plugs come out looking like this.  
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Posted By: KooK
Date Posted: June-30-2017 at 4:13am
Driving me nuts, literally keeping me awake late thinking about it. Before I go to bed I pulled the bowls off and took a few pictures.  
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Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: June-30-2017 at 4:40am
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If it backfired on start up, even one time the power valve could be toast. That would allow fuel to run into the manifold. You may not know that the idle adjustment screws on a Holley adjust the fuel not the air. You close them down to reduce the amount of fuel at idle. On your Webbers you open them up to increase the amount of Air. I don't know carbs well so I hope some of the experts on here can help. I wish we had compression numbers to compare with the bad looking plugs. I think any Advance, Autozone or O'Reilly will loan a gauge. ------------- |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: June-30-2017 at 8:18am
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[QUOTE=KooK] In this picture you're missing the o ring on the transfer tube from the accelerator pump. That's the little tube right above the power valve. Maybe you took it off, maybe it wasn't there That'll give a very rich condition while it's running if that o ring is left out and make for spark plugs that look like yours and make the idle screws ineffective and make a crappy running engine. |
Posted By: oldcuda
Date Posted: June-30-2017 at 11:31am
| Wrong or miss aligned intake gaskets? I would pull intake and check seal since heads were decked. |
Posted By: KooK
Date Posted: June-30-2017 at 2:53pm
Boooooooooooooooooooooooooom, that was it. It runs better than it ever has. I have no idea if that o-ring was there in the first place but my God it's rock solid now... Thank you for pointing that out, holy hell! |
Posted By: Bri892001
Date Posted: June-30-2017 at 3:04pm
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Wow! Impressive eye by Ken. I was following this thread and was not expecting that to be the solution. |
Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: June-30-2017 at 3:12pm
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BAM!!!!! KENO, you are the man! That was a great catch! I saw that and ASSUMED he had taken it off or it popped off on tear down. Never assume I guess. Nice work. KooK congratulations, send Keno some Beer! ------------- |
Posted By: SNobsessed
Date Posted: June-30-2017 at 3:28pm
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What a happy ending, glad for you that it wasn't something more expensive. So after you get it back together, how about posting a photo? ------------- “Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.” Ben Franklin |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: June-30-2017 at 3:55pm
| Damn Ken |
Posted By: samudj01
Date Posted: June-30-2017 at 4:04pm
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Ken coming in clutch again! I was following this thread too and was hoping that would be the fix. A great outcome. Have fun this weekend and yes, some pics please. ------------- 78 Ski Tique, 72 Skier w/302's, 93 SN w/351 & 17 GS22 w/zr409 Previous - 99 Sport Nautique w/GT40 and 87 Martinique w/351 |
Posted By: phatsat67
Date Posted: June-30-2017 at 5:02pm
| Ken got those Eagle eyes. Good job. |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: June-30-2017 at 5:03pm
 to Ken------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: June-30-2017 at 5:27pm
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I think Kook's a happy camper Nice cheap easy fix Just goes to show ya' what happens when you post pictures It would have taken a long, long time to get to the same end result without pictures. So I guess I wouldn't have seen that the O ring was missing if Kook hadn't taken some pictures and he wouldn't have done that if Dreaming hadn't brought up the idle screws one more time and on and on, lots of people...................CCF teamwork again. I guess it's another case of "when you think it's ignition, look at the fuel system and when you think it's fuel look at the ignition..............unless it's totally obvious what the problem is. Surprising how many times that works.. That missing O ring also may have brought back some not so good memories for me by the way, if ya' know what I mean  |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: June-30-2017 at 6:14pm
That was the first thing I thought of after you described the exact symptoms of a missing O ring ! One of those "been there done that's" Still Ken, I admire you catching it. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: June-30-2017 at 7:02pm
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If somebody is reading this and saying "I don't remember having a transfer tube" in my carburetor, Holley didn't come out with the tube till the mid 70's. 4160 carbs before that just had a hole in the metering block that aligned with a hole in the carb body and the metering block to carb body gasket had a hole that lined up with the other 2 holes. The holes were about 1/8 of an inch or so After that came bigger holes and the tube with an O ring at each end and a gasket cut to go around the tube. Here's a picture of the 2 different gaskets They're the same except for the hole for the accelerator pump discharge. You can turn the old style into a new style with a punch and a razor knife The bottom gasket in the picture was trimmed (not a great job but it worked)Some rebuild kits come with both style gaskets and also have the O rings that you don't need with the older carbs 
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Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: July-01-2017 at 12:33am
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KooK, your engine runs great now thanks to Keno. Modern Moly Rings like to break in at a 60-80% load. They will seat in 5 minutes run time if your cylinder wall finish is good. Boats are perfect for breaking an engine it because they are always under a load. I would take it out and run it. Vary the RPM constantly. I am not afraid of going wide open with a brand new engine after the 20 minute run in but don't keep there longer than 5 seconds or so and watch the temp and oil pressure like a hawk. If it starts getting hot shut it down and find out why. RPM in a boat wont hurt your break in but overheat sure will. Have some fun on the 4th of July, make some noise with your Toy. You pushed such long hours to fix it I suspect you had plans this weekend. Go Enjoy it! ------------- |
Posted By: Dreaming
Date Posted: July-03-2017 at 3:02pm
| Glad you got it! Nice catch KENO! |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: July-03-2017 at 4:17pm
Yea, but somebody named Dreaming swung things back around to the carburetor and got Kook to take those pictures So I guess I'd say nice assist Kris
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