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Best way to replace cutlas.

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    Posted: January-18-2017 at 12:43pm
So I was about ready to charge down to my heated hanger with the intent of pulling the shaft out of the 176. This was a 2 birds one stone scenario.

1. The cutlas bearing has too much play
2. I suspect the shaft is bent a little.

I was just going to bring a prop puller, remove the rudder, and use a 3 jaw puller for the flange. Now I've been seeing a lot of people talking about removing the engine instead of removing the trans coupler.

Is it THAT hard to get the coupler back on? I know it's tight, but I was picturing an oven and some aerosol to get her back together. Is it not that easy? I hate the idea of pulling the engine when I'm not sure the shaft is good anyway.

Chris
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hollywood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-18-2017 at 12:47pm
I haven't seen anyone remove a coupler with a puller. Not even sure there's room to try.

Jody was just talking about how he pulls the engine to install the XPC dripless shaft seal. I'm rolling the engine in spring to do a cutlass. Fussing with the interference fit couplers is indeed nonsense.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-18-2017 at 1:03pm
Dealing with interference fit couplers is not hard. Ignore HW, he has an unnatural fear of coupler removal/reinstallation (don't think he's ever done one).

You mentioned removing the strut... now that is something I would try to avoid at all costs... getting it perfectly lined up when reinstalling can be pretty tricky. Not hard to r&r the bushing while it's on the boat.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hollywood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-18-2017 at 1:06pm
Clearly it's not just me, the resident PROFESSIONAL doesn't fux with them either. Later hobbyist...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-18-2017 at 1:15pm
Hobbyist here... I know how long it takes me to remove, reinstall and realign an engine. With my facilities and equipment, it's easily a half day project if I hustle... full day if I take my time. I can do a shaft r&r plus bearing replacement in a few hours- either on the lift or on the trailer. Just speaking from experience.

Of course, if the engine is coming out anyways you bet I'll be throwing a cutlass in while it's out. That's $50 and 45min well spent.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Frankenotter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-18-2017 at 1:19pm
Sorry, I'm NOT removing the strut. Just the shaft and replacing the cutlas. Might have to get an A.R.E.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-18-2017 at 1:26pm
Going ARE if your shaft is bent is not a bad idea... it's the same price (or cheaper) than a new single taper shaft + coupler. If your coupler is good, I might price out a shaft-only replacement though? If close in cost, dual taper is pretty nice.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SWANY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-18-2017 at 1:47pm
Originally posted by TRBenj TRBenj wrote:

Going ARE if your shaft is bent is not a bad idea... it's the same price (or cheaper) than a new single taper shaft + coupler. If your coupler is good, I might price out a shaft-only replacement though? If close in cost, dual taper is pretty nice.


Then just cut the old shaft out and be done, easiest way going about it IMO. Packing on rudder also while its out.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-18-2017 at 1:55pm
Only if you're sure that 1) it's bent and 2) you're not going to reuse the coupler. Else you're potentially flushing $350. Removing the coupler is also easiest when you have a matching stationary pushing point (like the trans output flange).

Otherwise, by all means- sawzall!

Shaft packing (assume you meant driveshaft, not rudder) is a good idea too. 1000x easier while the shaft is out.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SWANY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-18-2017 at 2:17pm
Yeah, the packing in the nut for the rudder, thats what I should have said
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote quinner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-18-2017 at 2:21pm
All you need is a blowtorch and a pair of pliers, ya hear me Hillbilly Boy??
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-18-2017 at 2:54pm
Originally posted by SWANY SWANY wrote:

Yeah, the packing in the nut for the rudder, thats what I should have said

You're still losing me Joel... why repack the rudder when the driveshaft is out? Other than maybe having the floor panel off, what work are you saving by doing them both at once? Unless the rudder is leaking or maybe if it's loooong overdue, why not leave it be?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SWANY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-18-2017 at 3:45pm
If my memory serves me right I had to pull the rudder to get the old shaft out and new one in. I only cut it once by the log. That SS sucked cutting. I'm sure many would have frowned upon it, but I actually used a cutting wheel, but I was extremely careful. My theory is your ordering and paying for shipping on packing for the shaft nut why not do the rudder nut as well if the rudder is pulled. I did my shaft log also. Buck Algonquin. My boat is 10years older than Chris's though. If I remember right he has and puts on alot of hours a year.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-18-2017 at 3:57pm
Chris,
Dial indicate the shaft both in the middle and especially at the end of the prop taper. If it's bent as you suspect, cut it out and go with the ARE. If not, then as mentioned you have the choices of ether pulling the engine, pulling the trans flange or just cut it anyway and go ARE..

No, there isn't enough room to get a puller on the flange and the reason the spacer and bolt trick is used. Even if there was room for the puller say if the engine or the shaft was out of the boat it's not the best idea. With the arms of the puller being on the outside diameter of the flange, there's a strong chance of bending/warping the flange. With the bolt trick, there's less of a chance since the bolt holes are closer to the center of the flange. Yes, it's an interference fit and they can be a real problem getting them off. Then, there's the issue of getting it back on with the heat shrink process!

BTW, when was the last time the alignment was checked on the 176?   


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fl Inboards Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-18-2017 at 4:00pm
Actually when I replace the cutless in a strut like the one on a 176 I leave the engine in the boat. pop the prop off, remove the four 3/8" fastener's on the strut. pry the strut loose and slide it off the shaft. remove the two hex head set screws in the strut. set it up in my press and press out old cutless unit. clean and press in new unit. Clean old sealant from bottom of strut insert, Apply new sealant on strut base and bolts slide it back up on the shaft and reinstall fasteners. Check engine alignment put the boat back together and go skiing!!!
Takes about an hour and half for that install..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-18-2017 at 4:12pm
Originally posted by TRBenj TRBenj wrote:

You mentioned removing the strut... now that is something I would try to avoid at all costs... getting it perfectly lined up when reinstalling can be pretty tricky..

Tim,
I agree. There's just enough slop in the 4 hull holes and strut base to kick it out of alignment when you tighten it up. Then at the very minimum you need to unbolt the shaft coupling at the trans and make sure the shaft is happy at the position of the strut. If not, then you need to go mess with the strut again or leave it as is and blow the new cutlass bearing in a relatively short time!! ,


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-18-2017 at 4:55pm
Joel, I haven't done a 2001 but the '09 and '72 I did in the last few years didn't require rudder removal to get the shaft past. This may vary by model/year... definitely repack the rudder if it's out!

Pete, the ones I've done had more than *just enough* slop to create massive misalignment if you weren't careful. Test fitting, and then double checking alignment to the log after applying sealant and snugging the bolts (and adjusting as necessary) is required... and of course aligning the engine afterwards. Not exactly rocket surgery but a little more involved than leaving the strut on the boat (and more work than people may realize).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fl Inboards Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-18-2017 at 5:30pm
Oh no! Chicken little say's the sky is falling the sky is falling!


Alternative process is always hard for the archaic mind to comprehend!
Have done a number of struts in the manor described above in most all brands of inboard boat and never had any issues realigning. The Correct Craft Nautique 176 actually has a pretty precise mounting platform for it's strut assembly. There are many way's to accomplish the same outcome and have done the strut bushing/cutlass refit both way's in many different boats and will in the future assess direction of the that job depending on the boat. However in the case of that generation Correct Craft I will continue to remove strut and proceed with what I described above and would recommend it to the DYI hobbyist as an alternative to the potential can of worms that is otherwise discussed.

Do any of you own a Meloon Crafted Strut Tweeker???
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-18-2017 at 6:00pm
Originally posted by Fl Inboards Fl Inboards wrote:

Do any of you own a Meloon Crafted Strut Tweeker???

No not the Meloon version but the commercially available version is called a 36" pipe wrench with the accessory cheater pipe extension handle. Both work very well for the advanced back yard hack that wants to adjust a strut position and or and twist or bend.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-18-2017 at 6:04pm
Ah so there is a name for that tool? Ha.

I've used one of those before... tweaking a strut that is snugged down but sealant is still uncured can be done with a BFH as well.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote M3Fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-18-2017 at 6:19pm
A little walk down memory lane on this topic : Shaft coupling removal with an impact wrench.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SWANY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-18-2017 at 7:09pm
I actually like the way Jody's described. I ended up needing to pull the strut anyways for an alignment. Could have loosen the bolts and shimmed put I need to re-bed the 4200. I made marks where the strut was on the hull before I loosened it, put it right back where it was.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Duane in Indy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-18-2017 at 7:24pm
Any competent machine shop can make your single taper shaft into a double taper. I think I paid $65.00 for my tapered coupling. If your shaft is good or can be straightened to within tolerance then that seems like a viable solution. Turning the taper and threading the end is not too big of a chore if you have the equipment. Good luck which ever way you go. Duane
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-18-2017 at 7:27pm
Originally posted by SWANY SWANY wrote:

I made marks where the strut was on the hull before I loosened it, put it right back where it was.

Joel,
FYI and to others, I'd like to mention that putting the strut back to were it was isn't always the best idea. It could have been bent at one time plus, it may not have been installed correctly at the factory! Always check it by using the shaft through the center of the log and making sure the shaft is happy (turns freely) in the struts position.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SWANY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-18-2017 at 8:08pm
Good catch Pete, I should note I mocked it up first with shims and found the happy spot in the log before I buttered it with 4200. That would be the key.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SNobsessed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-18-2017 at 9:45pm
I think the OP has left the building . . .
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Frankenotter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-18-2017 at 11:23pm
Originally posted by 8122pbrainard 8122pbrainard wrote:

Chris,
Dial indicate the shaft both in the middle and especially at the end of the prop taper. If it's bent as you suspect, cut it out and go with the ARE. If not, then as mentioned you have the choices of ether pulling the engine, pulling the trans flange or just cut it anyway and go ARE..

No, there isn't enough room to get a puller on the flange and the reason the spacer and bolt trick is used. Even if there was room for the puller say if the engine or the shaft was out of the boat it's not the best idea. With the arms of the puller being on the outside diameter of the flange, there's a strong chance of bending/warping the flange. With the bolt trick, there's less of a chance since the bolt holes are closer to the center of the flange. Yes, it's an interference fit and they can be a real problem getting them off. Then, there's the issue of getting it back on with the heat shrink process!

BTW, when was the last time the alignment was checked on the 176?   


Pete I made a post a while ago about getting a dial indicator on the 176 shaft. I fillowed the procedure and checked the recommended spots. the problem was there was too much play in the cutlass to get good results. I was getting north of .1" which didn't seem possible.

I know I need a new cutlass either way so I'm going to take the shaft to a local machine shop to have them test the runout on both the promo and 176 shaft.

I found the posts with the coupler removal using a socket and bolts. Does anyone know what size (width) bolts will fit in the coupler?

If the shaft is within tolerance..............( .003?????) then I will just replace the cutlass and try the heat method with the coupler. If I cant save the shaft, I will order a new A.R.E. and be done with it.

I checked the alignment when I bought the boat 4-5 years ago

What place has the best deals on cutlass bearings? 1" od
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Duane in Indy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-19-2017 at 7:18am
Quote If the shaft is within tolerance..............( .003?????)
What place has the best deals on cutlass bearings? 1" od


Not to confuse things, but the .003 figure is on the FACE of the coupler not on the shaft. That being said, the shaft should be as straight as possible, especially in the last 12" or so.
The site sponsors would be a source.. Also check "DeepBlueYachtSupply.Com"
Can't locate the receipt for my tapered coupling but I paid about $65 for it, not sure where I bought it.   Have fun sawing it out
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-19-2017 at 7:45am
Originally posted by Duane in Indy Duane in Indy wrote:

Quote If the shaft is within tolerance..............( .003?????)
What place has the best deals on cutlass bearings? 1" od


Not to confuse things, but the .003 figure is on the FACE of the coupler not on the shaft. That being said, the shaft should be as straight as possible, especially in the last 12" or so.
The site sponsors would be a source.. Also check "DeepBlueYachtSupply.Com"
Can't locate the receipt for my tapered coupling but I paid about $65 for it, not sure where I bought it.   Have fun sawing it out

Duane,
The .003" is the TIR on the shaft! When facing the coupling face, I sure hope whomever is truing it up to it's bore can et it closer than the .003!   

I'd like to add that the ARE taper at the trans is very short (steep) since many of out boats do not have the room for a regular taper between the trans and stuffing gland..


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Duane in Indy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-19-2017 at 7:59am
Originally posted by 8122pbrainard 8122pbrainard wrote:

The .003" is the TIR on the shaft! When facing the coupling face, I sure hope whomever is truing it up to it's bore can et it closer than the .003!   
I'd like to add that the ARE taper at the trans is very short (steep) since many of out boats do not have the room for a regular taper between the trans and stuffing gland..


Pete, The .003 figure that I was referring to was the feeler gage used to set the alignment to. And yes, the coupling assembled should be near perfect before attempting to align the shaft to the trans. The taper per inch is the same on both ends of mine, just shorter not steeper. Terminology here is misleading.
1" in 16" taper is S.A.E. Specification J755 spec.   Anyway, whoever machines the shaft should fit it to the supplied coupling. Duane
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