Mission: You Wanna What? [LOL]

Tony you beat me to it!!!!! I was just looking on A&A's website!

Is he in Indy with the 317 number? Never knew that. Learn info every day!

Tony, im asking if A&A transmissions is in Indy because he has a 317 area code.....

Behl wrote: Zach A & A may be in Camby on the South side, if I looked at the correct web

Here's a link to the Google Map:

A & A Transmission

JoeinNY wrote: Righty or lefty?

Joe, Zach told me to contact you. Can I reverse rotation inside the transmission?

Output righty, input lefty?

Zach suggested a 1.23. N3 apparently has a whole warehouse full of these old trannies and if it can be done without a lot of pain, it would solve a lot of problems come installation.

I was just curious if you could actually bolt up a 1.23 to a 440. Has Joe had any transmission problems with that 1.23 behind the hot Ford?

Tim, Tony and I were talking if the 1.23 bolts up to the same pattern as the BW then all else would have to be the same as far as shaft penetration into the bell housing and all that to make it a direct bolt in replacement for the bw. I dont know why PCM would have spent all that extra time and money developing it differently. Only variable I see if it bolts up properly is a different shaft size or spline pattern for the spring plate.

Tony said he thought he would have enough room to compensate for the length of the 1.23. The swap to a larger shaft (if possible) might not be a bad thing because I know Joe kept breaking the 1" shafts and this BB stroker will for sure have more torque than Joes 408. I would like to see a Mopar boat eclipse the 60mph mark

Tim you might be scared the Mopar boat will whoop up on your Chebby Barefooter ;).

And a side note the 550 G boats are turning a 1 1/4" Shaft No wonder all the ladies like the G boats haha.

Edit: Said he kept twisting shafts so he had to go with a higher strength shaft and let it spin more RPM. I had a phone conversation with Joe when he picked up that pretty blue cover.

I didn't have a BW in the shop to take a look at the splines. I will check what they list between bell housings on the stuff. I wonder if it would be difficult to find a damper plate that would sport that spline and bolt up to the Chrysler flywheel. I know they make the multi pattern ones. Thats whats in my boat.


Could CC have moved the engine rearward in the BFN as opposed to the SW maybe for a speed standpoint? Purely conjecture at this point. We will just let Tony measure it and see what type of clearence he has.

Eddie twisted a few with the Python bfns, I twisted the stock cut down one that I tried to use to try the custom 4 blade oj monster prop when I buggered up my are shaft due to using a stainless nut.    Eric Johnson was actually hesitant to make that prop for a 1 inch shaft for that very reason.   The prop determines the torque load, not the engine.   They don't break they twist and then bend enough to vibrate bad.    

The PCM trans will bolt to a bw 71 bell housing but we have actually confirmed what tony has -- that why I asked a while back- or I tried anyway.   Tim has the lengths right - the output spline is different don't know if there is a damper that would bolt up to an rb flywheel - might have both lying around to check though.   Take pictures of the current setup and we can comment more intelligently on what will or won't work.   But I wouldn't want to be multiplying the torque of a big block stroked engine with a gear reduction trans if it was me.

phatsat67 wrote: so a 71 bw and 72 bw have a different bolt pattern?

No, I believe theyre the same. As is the 1.23 per Joe above.

The question is what Tony actually has in his boat... he claims to have a Paragon, which would be beyond strange. Most likely a 72C if he's mistaken.

The Paragon may bolt up to the same bell housing as a VD. Chris Craft FE block engines often had Paragons and we are using a Chris Craft bell housing on our FE with a 71C bolted to it.

phatsat67 wrote: Ahh, gotcha I thought the 71 and 72 were basically the same externally. I think I gathered Tony has 2 transmissions. One from the current 68 motor in the boat and one from the 74 motor for the build.

Okay, let me clear a few things up.

My SW is presently equipped with a M440B making a little over 300hp thanks to a few good friends in the machine industry. The engine is a 1968 440 because it is equipped with '906' heads - factory. I also have a BW 72 bolted up to it.

The engine I picked up to use as a starting point for my "Dream Engine" build is a 1977 casting M440B that was removed from Century. I am unsure what model. I 'believe' (emphasize "believe") that this transmission attached to it is a Paragon. I have not had a chance to tear this engine down since I returned from NC with it, so I cannot say for sure.

My machine shop that is assisting with the build highly recommends keeping the engine a lefty. This will simplify the building of the hydraulic roller cam that he is recommending. Also, since this engine is to be tuned on a dyno before installation, his dyno will not accept a RH rotation engine.

Zach suggested that a 1.23 might work, but to consult with Joe in NY because of possible issues with mating the transmission to the 440 bellhousing. Zach made this suggestion because he has several of these laying around the shop in various stages of condition.

I intend to keep the 1" shaft unless it simply does not work out and turn a 13X14RH (minimum) propeller. The pitch will be determined by what the dyno readouts come in at.

If I am unable to spin the prop in a RH direction, I will seek out a 13X14LH (minimum) propeller and if necessary increase the number of blades in order to facilitate the absorbtion of the horsepower created.

Now the speculation is over, the facts all in.

Let's put together a engine/tranny combo for this 500cid, 500hp "Dream Engine".

A good cam designer should not need dyno time to approximate where peak hp will occur, given all the parts used in the build. Other than knowing where that peak occurs, maybe Im lost as to what the dyno buys you. Jetting or timing changes based on A/F readouts maybe? All of your components are purchased and installed at that point, right? While a multi-carb set up may be more complex than average, remember that there are several of us here who have tuned these engines to a decent degree without the benefit of a dyno.

FYI, I wouldnt have thought it possible to spin a dyno backwards, but it CAN be done on some set ups. UT just did this for the RH 302 build in his Tique.

TRBenj wrote: A good cam designer should not need dyno time to approximate where peak hp will occur, given all the parts used in the build. Other than knowing where that peak occurs, maybe Im lost as to what the dyno buys you. Jetting or timing changes based on A/F readouts maybe? All of your components are purchased and installed at that point, right? While a multi-carb set up may be more complex than average, remember that there are several of us here who have tuned these engines to a decent degree without the benefit of a dyno. FYI, I wouldnt have thought it possible to spin a dyno backwards, but it CAN be done on some set ups. UT just did this for the RH 302 build in his Tique. Of course the engine builder is going to tell you to keep it lefty. Thats what he's used to working with- and once the engine is done, he's done. You are the one who has to live with this engine in a boat. Before you decide that turning a LH prop is acceptable, I would highly recommend driving an older CC with a LH prop that was designed to have a RH. I have done it and found it VERY disconcerting- even moreso than I thought I would. A v-hull may handle it better, but I would still put a LH prop in the strongly not recommended category. Especially on a high powered, potentially high speed boat. Read Joe's comments above about the tranny and shaft... I think his (and Eddie's) feedback on the shafts puts to bed the reduction tranny question, at least if staying with a 1" shaft. Go with the 72c. Or, keep looking for another box that will drop in place of the BW that can reverse the direction of engine rotation AND handle decent hp. Maybe a certain ZF exists that fits that criteria.

The benefit I am getting with dyno is the ability to dial the engine in without spending a bunch of time at the lake. While this would be a blast, the benefit of having some expert engine tuners working with me when fiddlin' with this thing would be nice. And it's nice to know when I set it in place, it will light right off and work as expected...theoretically.

Gordon said his dyno won't spin backwards. I may have found a guy on the Missouri side that thinks his may spin backwards. That would solve the dyno tune issue. Which brings us back to the cam. Obtaining a right hand roller hydraulic IS expensive. I still need to find the place that you (or whomever it was) mentioned. And I have been too busy at work and at home to go back a re-read what was said. Perhaps, tonite.

I think you mentioned the cam guy...I don't remember. We shall work it out...all of us...together.

A boat with a LH prop is going to lean more to starboard under all conditions. More so under heavy throttle (acceleration, etc). The RH prop counteracts the weight of the driver, a LH will exaggerate it. Im not sure if other ski boat manufacturers (who use LH props extensively) design their hulls with the LH prop rotation in mind, but CC sure did build some boats with the RH prop in mind. The v-hulls may or may not have fallen into this category, and the SW is a fairly large boat (and thus less affected by prop rotation), but I still wouldnt take that gamble. The boats Ive driven with unoriginal LH props on them did some weird things when accelerating and turning. Things that made me nervous... and not many things when piloting these boats make me nervous (ask around!).