Custom 1965 Correct Craft Mustang build |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Peter, I believe I was the one way back who recommended the LVL as an alternate if Doug Fir wasn't available. It's an "engineered" product so it's very consistent in strength. All the grain runs the length of the LVL and with the addition of the glue, makes it stronger that a solid. You can look at the charts and see an LVL will carry more load than a solid. It however must be sealed with a decent CPES treatment and of course an epoxy layup. Lagging engine mounts to it is not an issue since the grain is running the proper direction but, after drilling the pilot holes for the lags, they must be CPES'd and then sealed with 5200. |
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Hussler
Gold Member Joined: February-04-2012 Location: - Status: Offline Points: 895 |
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I restore boats, just not nice ones lol. Mostly 1980's rot boxes that never get covered. Many of our customers would rather have their floors replaced for 2 to 4k then buy a newer 5k boat. I mean, I guess I understand the logic of saving a few bucks. I'm in a very... odd market segment to say the least.
We dont do any wood work (because ive never been taught :( ) but we are known for our work with the motors. We dont differentiate when hanging a wooden boat, they always get hung until we can come back and check on them in a week or so. When we drop 90% of the wooden boats the customer hasnt even come up for the summer yet! Its really just our way of making sure no leaks have devolved and that they dont sink while nobody is around. Heres a pic of one of my favorite chrises we take care of, I dont know what kind of bottom she has but she takes on water for a day or two, stops leaking fairly quickly. She drives like a schoolbus in outer space and she doesnt have the ability to plane off, but a cool craft none the less. |
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Hussler
Gold Member Joined: February-04-2012 Location: - Status: Offline Points: 895 |
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I just got the vin off the hull from todd, thanks todd!
gt21t522981 Mean anything to you guys? |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Jim,
Thanks for filling us in. It sounds like you work for a diversified marina with the exception of no woodworking. That Chris looks like it's in pretty decent shape cosmetically but it needs bottom work. A double planked bottom is water tight and never needs soaking. However, they were all designed to have the outer planking removed every 10 years or so and have the canvas/bedding compound between the inner and outer planking changed. It's even in the Chris manuals!! Do your customer a favor and recommend bottom work. The "latest and greatest" fix for a double plank is using 5200 between the inner and outer planks. It never needs replacing! He sure has taken care of the waterline and above - why not the bottom? Bad advice about having to soak the hull??? |
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Hussler
Gold Member Joined: February-04-2012 Location: - Status: Offline Points: 895 |
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Heres a couple pics of the typical kind of boat I would fix up. Marine ply for the stringers and deck with fibre matt for reinforcement. Cant remember the brand of resin we use, something through morgan
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Jllogan
Platinum Member Joined: May-18-2011 Location: canton, OH Status: Offline Points: 1728 |
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wow it shocks me people will invest 2-3K in a boat like that!?!?! I guess it could have sentimental value???
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Wow! yes, I agree that it's hard to imagine someone putting in major man hours on an old hull like that! Marine ply? Why? How long are you getting the sheets? If not long enough for the length needed, what are you doing for the butt joint? |
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Riley
Grand Poobah Joined: January-19-2004 Location: Portland, ME Status: Offline Points: 7948 |
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It must be less expensive to repair than buy another boat.
Pete, I know you're correct about the no need to swell up the bottom, but it seems back when wood boats were still in regular use, it was pretty common to see marinas soaking them every spring. I guess because very few people replaced the bottoms? |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Bruce, The quick answer is yes! However, replacing just the canvas and bedding compound wasn't that big of a deal. You did not need to flip the hull since if done regularly all that was needed was to pull the outer layer of planking and the reuse it. Sometimes the screws needed to be up sized. It's how the silicon bronze screw guys came up with number 7 and 9 sizes!! |
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Hussler
Gold Member Joined: February-04-2012 Location: - Status: Offline Points: 895 |
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I'm honestly not sure why the marine ply, its what my boss has always ordered so thats what I use, didnt even know of any superior alternatives? We buy 4x8 sheets, I havent found a boat yet that was assembled with any other size. That makes it very easy to copy the old design. I'll only change the old design if it was a defect that caused rot. 4x8 sheets are also "fairly easy" to wield. As for that joint I think it was 1/4 aluminum lap with grade 5 anodized self tapping torx. (I love those torx!) Usually if I had to do a joint like that I would use 3/4 ply lap but I dont think I had the space there. As far as that boat goes, we didnt even give the guy an estimate!! He said "make it look nice, I want grey carpet and red seats." So thats exactly what we did. It had no sentimental value, we sold that boat to him for about 1500 the year before. Shortly after we gave it back to him we had a storm and it broke free and crashed into his 35x mastercraft. Then I did some gelcoat work hahaha! |
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Hussler
Gold Member Joined: February-04-2012 Location: - Status: Offline Points: 895 |
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Heres another one. This guy wanted it done in 4 days because he only visits his ADK camp for a week in the summer! That was a very tight time contraint. I had no choice but to reuse the carpet and it was a pain getting the anchor well port lined right up but it turned out nice. He just needed a quick patch job so his seats would stop ripping away from the floor. By the time we delivered it the anchor well was still wet. I told him to not put anything in there for a couple days, he said he didnt care and was more than happy to have his boat on time. Nice boat, wish I had more time for detail but he just needed it asap.
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Hussler
Gold Member Joined: February-04-2012 Location: - Status: Offline Points: 895 |
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Holy crap there is a lot of choices for stringers!! I had no idea it was so debated. Can somebody just tell me the best choice LOL
Cost isnt a factor. I only want to do this once, ever. I guess I dont want the stringers to weigh 100 pounds each either but I'm really willing to go the distance. I keep seeing doug fir, now correct me if i'm mistaken but isnt that what they build interiors walls out of? That really surprises me, the treated version isnt a better option? |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Yes, Doug Fir is a common wood used for contruction but typically for high strength components like joists and headers. You NEVER want to use treated wood with any kind of resin glass layup. The resin and treated do not like each other so the resin will not bond. It may seem fine when first done but it will come off. Also, treated typically is of unknown moisture content. With the CPES and epoxy, the Doug Fir is a basic and sound choice. |
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21115 |
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If cost and schedule are secondary concerns, with strength and longevity being more important, that makes for a strong argument for a composite like Coosa or Airex PXC. An added bonus is that they weigh about 2/3 as much as wood. |
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63 Skier
Grand Poobah Joined: October-06-2006 Location: Concord, NH Status: Offline Points: 4234 |
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Hey Jim. What was the white I/O boat with grey stripe, a Checkmate?
You need to figure all this stringer stuff out so when I get a project boat I can send it to you to get re-strung! Good luck, you've obviously got the skills and experience to do this a lot easier than most of us (or me anyway). |
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'63 American Skier - '98 Sport Nautique
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Donald80SN
Grand Poobah Joined: January-12-2009 Location: Denver, NC Status: Offline Points: 3888 |
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Properly glassed Douglas Fur will last another 40 or more years. Composite will last for ever, but I will likely only make it another 40 years ( 47 +40 = 87). Douglas will go into my boat.
Many of the guys have gone with a used or made a new aluminium cradle to mount the engine on. Correct Craft started with those in 1980. I would try to expore the possiblity of putting one in. FYI, Donald |
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Riley
Grand Poobah Joined: January-19-2004 Location: Portland, ME Status: Offline Points: 7948 |
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Your boat is a great first project boat. You can rebuild it without going overboard on the method and/or the parts. If you get into fixing up Correct Crafts, you'll find that there are other boats you'll want that will justify the "costy isn't a factor" approach.
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JoeinNY
Grand Poobah Joined: October-19-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5693 |
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If you are going for the best of the best there is no doubt that it is the coosa/airex option. It takes a bit more time to laminate together some stringers but the difference in cost between that and fir/plywood is minimal. Should you ever sell the boat a boat with coosa stringers is considerably more desireable. Yes the fir/plywood can be done well.. but if you are buying and not doing then you would have no idea if it was done well. Whereas buying the coosa boat the quality of the job has much less effect on the longevity. I personally think that the coosa is enough easier to shape than wood that it has real benefits in installation time for certain methods of reconstruction.
You can go fully foam cored but that is more expensive and time consuming than the coosa/airex. |
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Hussler
Gold Member Joined: February-04-2012 Location: - Status: Offline Points: 895 |
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Joe,
Where did you buy your coosa board? Looks like about 430 for one 2" board and if it has to be delivered thats prob a 100+ shipping charge. |
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Hussler
Gold Member Joined: February-04-2012 Location: - Status: Offline Points: 895 |
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Yeah it was a checkmate. I think it had a 250 merc on the back, I had such a short time frame I didnt even get to put it in the water to try her out :( Thanks for all the compliments guys, I'm really not a pro boat builder by any means though haha. I hope to learn plenty of sweet new methods from you guys, I've already went through a majority of the build threads posted and wow, wish I had been given the time to give the attention to detail you guys have! |
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21115 |
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I would get set up with an account with Composites One if youre going to get serious about using composites. I believe the RI store is closest to me. Not sure where abouts in the Adirondacks you are.
You wont want to use 2" thick coosa. Your main stringers will be longer than 8', so you'll need to piece them together. By making them multiple layers of thinner material (Joe and I each used 3 layers of 1/2" on the mains) you can stagger the joints and maintain more strength over the entire length. You also get the added strength of the glass used to bond the layers together. Expect to pay in the $200-250 range per sheet, if you go that route. On a small 16' boat like a Mustang, I bet you could get both sets of stringers and the front floor section out of 2 sheets. If you go with a foamed (glass directly over foam) build, then you can probably rebuild that boat with composites for little more than it would cost to do a wood based build. A foamless composite-floored build would likely add at least 1 more sheet (maybe 2). The stuff is really nice to work with, so the only real downsides are 1)the extra cost of the material 2)the extra time involved with laminating your stringers together and 3)having to be really efficient with your use of material (see #1) so you dont waste much. For reference, here is our coosa BFN build. |
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JoeinNY
Grand Poobah Joined: October-19-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5693 |
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Well I didnt buy any 2" thick boards, besides the waste problem it wouldnt be long enough and you would have to use a big butt joint. I made my 1.5" stringers out of half inch thick sheets cut to strips and glued together, staggering the joints. Somewhere buried in ,my rambling thread the process is laid out, it has since been repeated a few times by others as well and is pretty well proven out. On a bigger boat I used .75" thick for the secondaries but on a mustang the whole thing could be accomplished with 1/2". I havent done a layout but I am pretty sure 3 4x8x1/2 sheets would do the whole thing including the floor (tim will correct me if I am way off base). And if $550 (composites one is about 180 per sheet of airex 24lb) is all that was standing between me and a wood free boat... well I know what I would be doing. Shipping can be an issue of course, the nearest composites one to you is in Rhode Island. I maybe heading out there towards the end of the month for my spring coosa fix though.. play your cards right and I could push some off the back of the truck somewhere around albany? |
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JoeinNY
Grand Poobah Joined: October-19-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5693 |
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Dammit tim!
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21115 |
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LOL.
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Hussler
Gold Member Joined: February-04-2012 Location: - Status: Offline Points: 895 |
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Tim, Joe looking through your coosa builds, you guys are freaking nuts!! Nice work!!
I see what you guys mean about the layering of coosa, thanks for explaining. I was reading through some threads on this forum and others and it seems that the people that had trouble with pressure treated didnt use kiln dried pressure treated, the none kiln dried has about 1/3 of its weight water! I think the coosa looks like a great product but the more I read, a wood stringer setup really does last 30-40 years when properly taken care of. My boat will be about 100 years old by the time it starts to rot again! The original fiberglass will poof to dust before then lol! Again, you guys do beautiful work!! |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Kiln dried or not, it shouldn't be used since the moisture isn't the biggest problem. As mentioned, the resin and the chemicals in treated do not like each other. The bond fails. If you have been using treated or not, I sure hope you use a moisture meter. Kiln drying will only take the content down to about 13% and that's too high. What is the moisture content of the wood you have been using? |
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21115 |
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Again, if your budget is really tight (and Ive been there!) then a wood based build certainly has its merits. Against the common "avoid pressure treated lumber" mantra here, I know of someone who has used it with good success in the past. Personally, I have no experience with it (at least in terms of boat building).
Then again, if you can be real efficient with your cuts, then a few hundred bucks spent on better material may be worth considering. Like Joe, I would have a really easy time justifying a $500 premium for coosa/airex on a boat I planned to keep. Especially if you could coerce the man into dropping a few sheets off for you! |
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Hussler
Gold Member Joined: February-04-2012 Location: - Status: Offline Points: 895 |
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I have no idea, I wasn't aware there was a range. A lot of my guidance has been second hand from my boss. Thats good, I'll know from here on out whats acceptable. What is an acceptable range any how? |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Jim, I suggest a % below 10. 8 is a good number. The last % points are the ones that take time. Good lumber should be sticker'd if air dried for at least 2 years. It depends on what part of the country you are in! A moisture meter is key. Sorry, but if you do not use one, I consider the work "half as**". Tim, I do have a friend up north that way back when he first started stringer jobs, he thought treated would be a great idea. He did several and they all failed after one season (glass bond). Eric as well has had problems. If the wood is dry and you CPES it, they is no reason to go treated. I also feel that some shops will use treated as a shortcut. No CPES and they give their customers a "line of BS"!! |
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Hussler
Gold Member Joined: February-04-2012 Location: - Status: Offline Points: 895 |
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So with douglas fir you give it the cpes treatment before you glass it?
EDIT: I dont see anything about CPES being bondable to fiberglass epoxy |
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