the long road ahead - 67 Nautique resto/mod

WakeSlayer wrote: so, would you leave it? or replace it?    I kind of want to leave it. And it is original!

Mike,
I'd leave the copper. If the factory got 3" on the 3&1/8" OD then I'm sure you can too. No matter what the size, the exhaust is always a fight! Besides, keeping the copper gives you more exhaust breathing room!!

BTW, hole saws over 2&1/2" come sized in 1/8ths so finding the correct size won't be a problem. Below 2&1/2, they come in 1/16ths.

Bruce,   Why would some one do that?!?!?!?!?
I have chrome rings that slide of the pipe and screw to the transom. I will polish them before I install and see if I can keep up with it.

Pete, I like it!
I have found the correct hole saws online, I am a bit more impatient than that and want to find one today. I thought I had a 3 at home, and was going to use that. Upon further review, it is a 3.5.

My engine will love me.

I must be confused. My copper pipes are completely buried under the removable ply. My exhaust caps that screw into the transom seem to be chromed. I was going to have them re-chromed along with many other parts. I can't see the copper at all though and apart from removing the grime have no intentions of polishing something that I can't see. What am I missing or is this boat laid out differently?

Keeganino wrote: I must be confused. My copper pipes are completely buried under the removable ply. My exhaust caps that screw into the transom seem to be chromed. I was going to have them re-chromed along with many other parts. I can't see the copper at all though and apart from removing the grime have no intentions of polishing something that I can't see. What am I missing or is this boat laid out differently?

Keegan,
The single ring around the copper exhaust pipe is a carry over from the wood boat era. If you look on the backside of the ring, there's a chamfer on the ID next to the pipe. Rope packing just like you use in the prop shaft and rudder stuffing box is wrapped around the pipe. When the flange is tightened, the packing is compressed sealing out the water. Some times it worked other times it didn't!! The design also allowed for thermal expansion of the exhaust pipe because the pipe would move in the packing slightly. This was important back when there wasn't any rubber in the exhaust. It was hard piped directly to the engine. Later like your boat along with better sealants, the exhaust "tip" became one piece. Don't go looking for copper on your tips. You'll grind through the chrome!

WakeSlayer wrote: WakeSlayer wrote: I did two more runs of tape on the inside of the mains last night. I have currently, 2", 2", 4", 8" cap, 8", 4".   I still have enough to do another 8" down the joint if need be. Opinions on adding or just leaving it? Then I plan to cap with biax, then do a wide strip of biax from hull to the top edge of the stringers. I am going to do some repair and buildup work around the strut, and I think this will tie into that well. Thoughts? Any opinions on the above? Kinda got lost in the other discussions about exhuast.

Mike,
You've got plenty at the hull to stringer (4 layers at the fillet). Now if I'm reading this correctly the rest of the stringerover the top you have 3 layers correct and 1 biax to go? That's plenty too. You'll be able to be the last one on the lake (or first in spring). That thing will break ice!!

Pete, I just have one 8" layer over the top. I partly did this to break up the joint lines a bit. I actually have 5 layers at the fillet now.
Charlie, I got one at lunch yesterday. However, now after looking, I installed the boards and will drill them later. The angle they mount in there made it seem to me it would be easier that way to drill the hole straight oriented to the stringers. The transom has a pretty good curve to it.

I have a 71SN and am a little behind you with my progress. Port stringers are out and I am test fitting the new currently. I have some questions and thoughts on one of your earlier posts:

"I did epoxy the floor down in the Mustang, but I also used some screws. Partly for the strength, and partly to hold down the ply as it had a couple twists in it from sitting around, despite being weighted. I pre-drilled, and epoxied the holes, countersunk slightly, and filled the tops. That floor is never coming out.

The 3/4" does not have hardly any flex to it. I have a couple aluminum angles across between the stringers in the Mustang to support the removeable panel. It is just main stringer width. On this boat, I will have it go 7.5" wider on each side to the secondaries so I can access the exhaust if need be. This may require more support."

I am likewise a no-foamer and was also considering to make my floor removable. Is that what you are also considering? For the floor battens I am planing on using 1x2 white oak starting at the rear valance and locating them on 16" centers. It lays out well in accommodating 4x8 plywood. For flooring I was thinking about using 1/2" concrete form ply but may have a problem getting the carpet glue to stick. One other thing I was going to do was not screw my floor battens directly into the main stringer but rather epoxy an oak cleat onto the side of the stringer and then screw into it. I plan to drill a small pilot hole through the oak cleat so on the event that water does find its way to these screws it can drain out the bottom.

“With respect to my exhaust. I have copper pipes that go out the back. They are 3 1/8" OD. I need to put my boards in in the next day or so. Seeking opinions on whether to leave these or replace with 3" stainless. On one hand, the copper could be all shiny and pretty, but require constant cleaning. How hard will it be to force modern 3" wired hose over these? I am sure I can get it, but may be tough. Also, I imagine I will have a hard time getting a hole saw that size so I would have to likely drill 3", then sand round to the larger size.”

I have a boat that has the copper through the transom. Works well and eliminates some subfloor maintenance. On mine I have a copper elbow up to the exhaust with a short piece of rubber connecting the two. Getting the rubber over the pipe was solved by taking the shot rubber pieces to my local muffler shop and having them stretch them a bit on one of the pipe expanding machines. You can buy a similar tool from Harbor Freight. I don’t polish them as you will never win the battle. I can post a picture if you would like.

“I did two more runs of tape on the inside of the mains last night. I have currently, 2", 2", 4", 8" cap, 8", 4".   I still have enough to do another 8" down the joint if need be. Opinions on adding or just leaving it? Then I plan to cap with biax, then do a wide strip of biax from hull to the top edge of the stringers. I am going to do some repair and buildup work around the strut, and I think this will tie into that well. Thoughts?”

I am of the opinion that glassing wood in the thickness you are doing is done for abrasion resistance. Granted it does ad some strength but not significantly. If you think about it a stringer is actually acting like a beam/joist with its strength being largely a function of depth.   I am considering to install the stingers with reinforced fillets as you did but just sealing above the cloth with several coats of brushed epoxy.

Frank

FrankT wrote: I am likewise a no-foamer and was also considering to make my floor removable. Is that what you are also considering? For the floor battens I am planing on using 1x2 white oak starting at the rear valance and locating them on 16" centers. It lays out well in accommodating 4x8 plywood. For flooring I was thinking about using 1/2" concrete form ply but may have a problem getting the carpet glue to stick. One other thing I was going to do was not screw my floor battens directly into the main stringer but rather epoxy an oak cleat onto the side of the stringer and then screw into it. I plan to drill a small pilot hole through the oak cleat so on the event that water does find its way to these screws it can drain out the bottom. I am of the opinion that glassing wood in the thickness you are doing is done for abrasion resistance. Granted it does ad some strength but not significantly. If you think about it a stringer is actually acting like a beam/joist with its strength being largely a function of depth.   I am considering to install the stingers with reinforced fillets as you did but just sealing above the cloth with several coats of brushed epoxy. Frank

Frank,
I feel you're getting into some "uncharted territory" with some of your ideas. Not that they are bad but allow me to make some comments. It's always good to think "outside of the box"!!!

Everthing below the carpet should be CPES'd, glassed and epoxied. Epoxy alone although it's a good sealer it's brittle. You need the glass for strength preventing cracking at any stress point. Using only epoxy you will get cracking and water will get to the wood. This has been proven many times over on wood hulls that have had the "West epoxy bottom" jobs. It never worked.

The White Oak for cleats/cross members is a nice idea but drilling a pilot hole for water to drain out isn't going to work. The water will just soak sideways into the wood.

Concrete "form board" is made so nothing sticks to it so you will have a problem. A better choice would be "sign board" which is a weather proof board with a high pressure laminate on it's face. I however feel it's overkill. Exterior grade epoxied/glassed (4oz. glass) ply has proven itself.

Any hole for removable flooring is a potential spot for water intrusion. Is there a reason you want to make the complete floor removable? With the exception of the lift off section behind the dog house, consider bedding/epoxying the rest of the floor down. Yes then just like Mike did, if screws must be used do CPES/epoxy them in.

The glassing of the sides of the stringers does add strength in the same analogy you mentioned regarding "beam depth". However, it's not for abrasion but more for keeping the water out as mentioned above.

BTW, my pulling a master mold off my Dunphy step pad was a disaster. The silicone casting compound outgassed severely between it and the step pan. No indication from the outside until I pulled the mold off. Back to the drawing board!!

Thanks for your comments. One thing to note about the epoxy flex is that the brittleness is a function of cure rate. Typically a 1:1 epoxy will be much more flexible than a 3:1. I used to have a link to one of the manufactures specifications but I can not find it anymore.

The other thing with the cleat concept is that it really becomes a sacrificial piece. If it rots, pop it off with a chisel and put a new one on. Same with the oak floor battens. Screw the flooring only to these members and not to the stringers. It's going to get wet eventually and if they rot just unscrew replace. In the 71SN the only wood that has survived is the oak under the tank and the oak piece at the base of the rear valance. These pieces where not even sealed.   

A removal floor is just a inspection and maintenance issue. I have a wood boat similar to yours and the floor is removable. Every winter I open it up to take a look and to also to let it dry out.

For your mold I try bondo. Get a good release agent, this is key, and spray the original. Put the original on your bench on a piece of wax paper and then press the bondo onto it. Hopefully it will work into the details of the original. Another product that might work is epoxy but you will have to devise some method to contain it.

Frank              

Frank,
I'm assuming the stringer/cross member pictures are from your wooden boat? I was meaning to ask you about it when I saw a picture of it in the "vents" thread. Grandcraft reproduction? Hard to tell as it was off in the corner of the picture.

I see where you're coming from with the cleat idea but I'd rather glass every thing in and then not have to worry about knocking one off later incase of rot.

So what is the purpose of so many layers of glass? To strengthen the stringer? Make them waterproof? Or adhere them to the hull? It doesn't appear to me that Correct Craft used resin to glue the stringers to the hull, but only the glass wrapping. As far as encasing them in so many layers of glass for water proofing, that seems to be over kill if you CPES them and coat them with epoxy. Wooden boats get along just fine without all that wrapping, maybe even better because they can breathe.

I am guessing that Tim is correct about the stringers being assembled in a jig and dropped into the boat and glassed. I bet Correct Craft didn't put layer upon layer to glass them in. It seems the oldest boats with the least glass and no foam lasted the longest.

I started layup on the rudder plate, and repairing the crack near the strut mount. I gournd out the crack a bit into to v shape, and filled with peanut butter. Sanded the edges a little, and put a couple strips of glass over them. I had nice fillets around the rudder plate, taped around it once, and then capped with 4 inch pieces. I then took on 2'x2' piece and covered the entire area from a couple inches up each stringer across, and from a couple inches up the transom to forward of the strut mounts. How much glass would you cap both the repair and the plate with? Similar to stinger layup? I also filleted around the exhuast plates, and will be capping those this weekend. I am going to try and get all this type of stuff done by the end of the weekend, and then start laying up biax, till I run out of epoxy. I had wanted to get this done by the time I left for the river, but will not quite make it.

Yesterday I was able to start laying biaxial up on one stringer. I had hoped to be able to finish the entire stringer, but I am not sure I have enough epoxy left, so I am stopping here and glassing in little stuff at the transom until I get more. I really thought 5 gal. would get the stringers done. Wrong. I am doing approximately four foot sections as I am doing this with no help. I put one layer on the front section, two in the middle (engine mounts)and will add one on the rear section. After that, I will lay one long piece end to end from top of stringer to about the same width out on the hull. I have a 38inch roll. The widest piece to cap the stringers is 26.5" leaving a minimum of 11.5" strip on the roll. I will have a giant piece of biaxial tape left on the roll to use. I did have to slice a hole where the crossmember cut outs are to relieve the outgassing as it would bubble when the epoxy started to kick off. I did not use the roller early on as much as I should have on the tapes as there are a few bubbles here and there. Any really bad ones are getting ground off prior to the biax.

Couple pics.








I am going to just focus on little stuff today, exhaust mounts, gas tank mounts, rudder plate, while i wait for more epoxy. Hopefully, I will at least have this main done before the river run.

I have gone through right around 5 gallons. Have more coming, but not until Wednesday. I would guess two more gallons to finish the stringers, and hopefully, the remaining three will get me through the longitudinals, and the floor. I will be pissed if I need more at the end.