Boat Dr. shell oil question |
Post Reply | Page <1 3456> |
Author | |||
eric lavine
Grand Poobah Joined: August-13-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 13413 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||
tr, you used a key word.....................................................................starvation which to me means....lack of, less than the others, starving, ..back to the begiining, not changing the oil enough or not checking the oil
|
|||
"the things you own will start to own you"
|
|||
eric lavine
Grand Poobah Joined: August-13-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 13413 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||
i could come up with a thousand reasons why something failed, its called speculation
speculation and hard evidence are 2 different words and have 2 different meanings |
|||
"the things you own will start to own you"
|
|||
Riley
Grand Poobah Joined: January-19-2004 Location: Portland, ME Status: Offline Points: 7952 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||
Some engines are pretty tolerant of being starved of oil. We had a 93 Crown Vic that I bought new. It started using oil at about 40k. I could tell when it needed oil just by smelling the exhaust. At that point, it would not even show on the dip stick and would take as much as 4 quarts. It always ran good and we got rid of it after 14 years because the car was falling apart, not the engine.
|
|||
Hollywood
Moderator Group Joined: February-04-2004 Location: Twin Lakes, WI Status: Offline Points: 13512 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||
eriC, how much longer would you run an engine after you knew you've lost 1 or 2 lobes? Chances are you'd lose more if you kept going.
|
|||
TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21136 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||
I see what youre saying, but there are a lot of variables youre not considering. Oil pressure will not be exactly the same everywhere in the engine. The zinc in the oil is what allows it to "stick" a little better- which is especially important in metal-on-metal surfaces (like cam to flat tappet lifter). Clearly you can see the relationship here? |
|||
79nautique
Grand Poobah Joined: January-27-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 7872 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||
Ya what Timmy said besides do you want to listen to the guys with the fast boats or the guys with the slow boats like Quinners or Marks with the 540 acme installed.
|
|||
JoeinNY
Grand Poobah Joined: October-19-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5697 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||
Speculation is speculation until they put a P.E. after your title then your speculation becomes the Failure analysis of record. Of course that doesn't make it any better of a speculation unless your in court arguing the matter but I digress... The cam companies would come up with a thousand reasons why the failure occurred then conduct tests to eliminate most of them, chose the most likely remaining one and call it hard evidence. If you don't believe edelbrock who sells millions of flat tappet cams and lifters then how can we possibly convince you? |
|||
M3Fan
Grand Poobah Joined: October-22-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3185 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||
I used the term just for the insiders that know about the thread, to give them a little chuckle- I wouldn't say Boat Dr's reply was a basic, civil answer... Anyway, it's VR-1 for me from now on- very easy decision. Same auto parts store, different color bottle. |
|||
2000 SN GT40 w/99 Graphics/Gel
2016 SN 200 OB 5.3L DI https://forum.fifteenoff.com |
|||
2_Nautiques
Senior Member Joined: March-22-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 251 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||
Does this discussion apply to both the older Fords and Chevys? I have one of each.
|
|||
behindpropeller
Platinum Member Joined: July-31-2006 Status: Offline Points: 1810 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||
Its a gun drilled cam, the oil comes out those holes. |
|||
|
|||
Riley
Grand Poobah Joined: January-19-2004 Location: Portland, ME Status: Offline Points: 7952 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||
Not to sound like I haven't been paying attention, but don;t you have a modern boat with a roller cam? Why would you switch? |
|||
M3Fan
Grand Poobah Joined: October-22-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3185 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||
Nope. NONE of the pushrod Ford SB motors are rollers- all flat tappets until the end. |
|||
2000 SN GT40 w/99 Graphics/Gel
2016 SN 200 OB 5.3L DI https://forum.fifteenoff.com |
|||
TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21136 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||
Yes, I believe it does. I dont think the 454 went roller until sometime in the 90's. No idea when the SBC went roller. Any engine with a flat tappet cam needs the oil with the zinc. Like Joel said, ALL the Fords are flat tappets, including the GT40 MPEFI. |
|||
Geno
Senior Member Joined: September-05-2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 179 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||
Oh sh*t - *runs off to check if his 95 sbc is a roller*
|
|||
eric lavine
Grand Poobah Joined: August-13-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 13413 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||
you guys jump on the band wagon 2 quick, yes i know zinc is important in oils but, we see a cam failure and you guys are 100% fixed on this fixation of zinc in the oils and automatically assume because the lack of zinc in the oil thats why my cam failed, i would make a bet with anyone on this site that they wouldnt put every dollar they had on this failure and say my cam failed because the lack of zinc in the oil, you cant and i cant because you and me do not know 100% what made that cam fail its easy to SPECULATE as to what made it fail. there is not enough information here to say why it failed. it truly may have failed because of this but you cant say that because i highly doubt anyone on this site has the equipment to determine what failed it.
this is being said from doing this stuff for many years (24) also included is 2600 hours of diesel engine school and and about 10 tranny schools and hundreds of rebuilt engines and thousands of tranny's, I added that cause i think there was some doubt, and i was attacking this from a different angle to open eyes and not to assume the cam failed from lack of zinc even though it may have, but we dont know that |
|||
"the things you own will start to own you"
|
|||
TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21136 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||
Do we? I understand your position of playing the devils advocate, but I have to agree with Joe. We cannot 100% determine if and when we would have a cam failure due to the supposed decreased levels of zinc in today's oils. As consumers without the proper tools, knowledge, money or time at our disposal to do the analysis, we rely heavily on outside sources of information. That includes other internet forums and articles which report increased cam failures and the relationship to the decreased level of zinc in oils, as well as information and recommendations from the engineers at the cam manufacturers and oil companies. While it would be an interesting experiment to run the non-zinc oil in my flat tappet, wait for a cam failure, then tear down the motor and pay for an analysis on the cause to prove my point to you, Im just not going to do it! For equal money, Ill heed the advice Ive been given by trusted experts and other flat tappet owners alike, and run what all my research indicates is the correct oil in my engine. We're just passing along info that we've accumulated. Do with it as you wish |
|||
eric lavine
Grand Poobah Joined: August-13-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 13413 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||
remember, there also was wmd's in Iraq too, sometimes people are told what they want to hear. I also noticed you wouldnt bet me all the money either lol eric
|
|||
"the things you own will start to own you"
|
|||
TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21136 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||
Nope! Just trying to make the best decision based on the info Ive got. What else can anyone do? If it saves or prolongs the life of my cam/engine, great. If it does the same for anyone else reading this, even better. If it doesnt, no harm done. |
|||
boat dr
Grand Poobah Joined: June-27-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4245 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||
Eric, you should stick to building trannys !!!
You have not offered any positive to this post only negative.You do not own a CC nor any engine that has a flat tappett valve train. A for the cause and effect of this rash of lifter/cam failures, can you tell me for sure and without speculation that is was NOT caused by the removal of the ZDDP.If you are not capable of this with all your schooling, please let the owners of these motors make their own choices.The introduction of the ZDDP will not harm, and could possibly save a major engine repair. Do you agree ??? No help needed from the cheering section.......... Also there is some good info available at some of the sites Tim has posted, although you are educated to the max now, I would recomend the read just for giggles... |
|||
eric lavine
Grand Poobah Joined: August-13-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 13413 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||
i got bored of building engines along time ago and switched to tranny's, plus there's more money in trannys, and for owning boats im up there i dont have enough toes and fingers to count them over the years and yes there was a Correct Craft in the batch. i was not bragging about how many schools ive been to, i was letting you know that i am educated enough on the workings of internal combustion engines. 2600 hours is plenty of education to debate such a topic. i am a certified diesel mechanic, and a certified transmission mechanic, not that it matters but it does help in trying to figure out problems such as this.
I was simply trying to keep an open mind as should you on why something failed. AND NO I CAN NOT TELL YOU WHY THIER CAMS FAILED as i stated, but i sure am not going to gaze at a blurry picture and say it failed because of no zinc in the oil, and if you can diagnose something in this matter please let me know how......or is it just speculation? |
|||
"the things you own will start to own you"
|
|||
Behl
Senior Member Joined: December-05-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 404 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||
Visited with my friend who builds drag racers. He was well aware of the valve problems. He said he would use Shell 40T, Valvoline Racing or Redline.. All of the above have been already suggested.
I have an account with Ashland; therefore, I am going to contact them and ask them about a Valvoline Racing oil for our engines. They sure have been a great help with my 2-Cycle Detroit. Their oil has worked the best of any oil I have ever used. The shop which rebuilt my engine now uses their oil because of my positive results. Hope same is true for older Fords! |
|||
87BFN owner
Grand Poobah Joined: August-25-2006 Location: Ypsilanti, MI Status: Offline Points: 2194 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||
I have been reading along and I think everyone needs to do what they think is best for them. The info has been put out there as it was recieved. Draw your own conclusion, but once you make your choice live and die by that choice.
You would swear there were naked women posted on this topic based on the number of visists it has seen. Does that suggest to anyone other then me how important some of us believe this issue to be? |
|||
Behl
Senior Member Joined: December-05-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 404 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||
It,s already getting to be a long winter. When will Spring arrive??
|
|||
TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21136 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||
Behl, make sure you stick with the VR1. The conventional Valvoline Racing (blue bottle) has a minimal detergents package with a recommended oil change interval on the order of ~500 miles. The VR1 has a detergents package that calls for >3000 mile change intervals. Both formulations still have the ZDDP. |
|||
Behl
Senior Member Joined: December-05-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 404 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||
Thanx for the heads up
|
|||
boat dr
Grand Poobah Joined: June-27-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4245 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||
Eric, you are speculating even there . you don't have enough info, I ask you again have you read the articles that are listed here.
No I think not, I have and gained a lot of knowledge from them.Knowledge is power in my book. And as far as schooling goes I feel I know as much or maybe a little more as to the marine industry. I too have a few GM Detroit Diesel schools in there too.They dont mean squat as to this topic. Mercruiser Master Tech. Yamaha Stern Drive Advanced Tech. Mercury Master Tech. BLA BLA BLA..... They taught us nothing about cam and lifter failure in any of these schools. Eric read the articles, you may learn something NEW, I know that is hard for you to fathom, but try it............. |
|||
boat dr
Grand Poobah Joined: June-27-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4245 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||
Steve, boy am I slow, just put together a face with the name.
Enjoyed you at GL and hopem to see you again next year........Boat dr |
|||
Behl
Senior Member Joined: December-05-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 404 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||
boat dr
Am planning on it!! |
|||
Hollywood
Moderator Group Joined: February-04-2004 Location: Twin Lakes, WI Status: Offline Points: 13512 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||
Which is why these guys are using the oil with the zinc...eliminating the variables. (been running the VR1 20-50 all year) |
|||
eric lavine
Grand Poobah Joined: August-13-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 13413 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||
I am not dis-agreeing about zinc in the oil, Ive read the articles and listened to the arguments. im having a problem with a cam failing and automatically everyone is fixated on no zinc in the oil and the real reason may be something entirely irrelevant. someone talked to an oil expert... a couple of cams fail and you assume its because of the zinc. Without the experts who are trained to look at failed cams day in and day out, without knowing the engines history, without maintanace records, without explaining why the other 400000 other engines out there in the same identical environment are still running. with out boxing that cam up and sending it to the manufacturer for an in-depth analysis there is no way that im going to believe the speculation as to why these cams failed because no one on this site has hard evidence to back this up.
maybe i should stick to trannys and if i get a call on why the transmission isnt working send me a picture and i'll let you know why |
|||
"the things you own will start to own you"
|
|||
Post Reply | Page <1 3456> |
Tweet
|
Forum Jump | Forum Permissions You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum |