"Blown" Ford 351 |
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 11087 |
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By the way Bill, I'd say good to see ya back here, but it would probably be better if you were out boating
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Gary S
Grand Poobah Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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Look to see if this highlighted tab is out on both front corners. If you are missing one that is the side that is backwards
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William777
Senior Member Joined: October-21-2017 Location: Northern CA Status: Offline Points: 149 |
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1978 Martinique Ford 351 Windsor
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William777
Senior Member Joined: October-21-2017 Location: Northern CA Status: Offline Points: 149 |
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I'm also a little confused when I compare the photos of Keno and Gary. In Gary's photo it looks like the tab is sticking out of the bottom of the head. In Keno's photo it looks like the tab would be sticking out of the top of the head, unless those gaskets in Keno's photos can be flipped to install? Or, my eyes are playing tricks on me again. I guess the main point is the front holes on both sides are blocked. One gasket bead up and the other bead down? Forgive me if I'm beating the dead horse.
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1978 Martinique Ford 351 Windsor
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 11087 |
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The horse is dead, it doesn't care how much it gets beat now Some gaskets you will have one bead up and one down and others look the same on both sides. Just have the FRONT in the FRONT That's the important part Like you said, the main point is that the front holes on both sides are blocked. Not all gaskets for a SBF have as much material at the front as what Gary's photo shows, but there should be at least a small amount sticking out at the front lower edge of the head. The links below will show 2 FelPro gaskets to compare One is the FelPro 17060 like I took pictures of, not much will stick out on the front when it's installed right The other is a FelPro 8548PT2 and it'll have a bigger flap hanging out like Gary's picture shows Look close and you'll see the difference The way the pictures in the links are, look at the upper right hand corner of each picture And depending on what you used for gaskets the amount sticking out will vary, but you should be able to see/feel a little flap if they're both on right whatever brand and part number they are.
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21182 |
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I didn’t go back to confirm if we were talking about a PCM 351w, but assuming we are, the answer is definitely NO. |
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 11087 |
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I seem to think you have a Commander, so if you can tell what the pump brand is (Sherwood or Jabsco) that would help but the answer is NO Probably need a picture of your engine looking right at the water pump and need to know if what you have now is still reverse rotation or standard automotive rotation to give you a good answer. Probably still reverse since you used the same distributor from the sounds of things Or, you could take the suction hose from the pump and stick it in a 5 gallon bucket of water and see if it pumps it out or doesn't move any water at all Depending on the pump, it should empty the 5 gallons in under a minute at about 1000 rpm's. Those would be good representative Sherwood numbers but the Jabsco should be about the same
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William777
Senior Member Joined: October-21-2017 Location: Northern CA Status: Offline Points: 149 |
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Good morning all, and thanks as usual for the support! I'm heading up to the lake this eve. I do have a Commander and the pump is Sherwood, I remember that. One thing, Last week I tried my version of testing the water flow situation by removing the thermostat and inserting a hose there. Started the engine and the water drained out of the intake under the boat. It didn't appear to go into the engine. Don't know if that says anything to you guys. I called the engine builder and he confirmed I have the RR engine. He said the distr would not have meshed with the cam gear if otherwise. I'm keen on eliminating the raw pump before I have to tear the top down AGAIN. I'll do the uptake in a 5 gallon bucket prolly tomorrow morning. And just now a crazy thought has occurred to me. I may have installed the wrong water pump. The previous block came from an old Mustang. It came with a water pump. I used it with the last rebuild, to my memory I didn't have a temp problem then but there was a little hole in the top passenger side of the pump in the rear that water was pumping out of. I JB Welded it and went on my way. On this rebuild I used the pump from my original engine because I was concerned about the JB Welded hole. No such hole exists on the pump I have installed now. The hole was not damage, I looked like it was drilled for some reason when the pump was manufactured. By the end of this drama, I will have exhausted every possibility of ***************g up an engine swap, I'm sure! Jeez. Are water pumps interchangeable between RR and SR engines?
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1978 Martinique Ford 351 Windsor
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William777
Senior Member Joined: October-21-2017 Location: Northern CA Status: Offline Points: 149 |
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Correction, driver's side, starboard, if looking at the engine from the belts.
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1978 Martinique Ford 351 Windsor
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 11087 |
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I imagine that little hole you plugged with epoxy was probably about 1/2 inch in diameter. It was also probably an automotive pump since that hole is where the heater return hose on a car goes. another hole pretty close to that one is for the thermostat bypass on a car application and usually has a pipe plug screwed into it on a marine Small Block Ford circulating water pump
Running the hose from the pump suction to a bucket will tell you if the pump is oriented right. If it doesn't pump, rotate the pump 180 degrees so that what was the suction is now the discharge and what was the discharge now has the suction hose hooked up to it and give it a try. And by the way, you're a long ways from exhausting every possibility of ***************g up an engine swap Edit.................See the next post to tell if your pump is oriented right without doing the bucket test.
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 11087 |
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Here are a couple of pictures to help you know if your raw water pump is installed correctly for Reverse Rotation.
First picture shows the pump housing with the infamous screw that people use to tell them if the pump is installed correctly for their rotation. Second picture is what you should see looking down at your pump when it's installed the right way for Reverse Rotation. The screw isn't visible because it's on the bottom part of the pump housing facing kinda down and inboard Since you have a Commander, I won't tell you where the pump is since you already know it's not where it is on a PCM. If it was oriented for normal rotation, that screw would be staring right back at you if you were looking at the pump. |
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William777
Senior Member Joined: October-21-2017 Location: Northern CA Status: Offline Points: 149 |
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1978 Martinique Ford 351 Windsor
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William777
Senior Member Joined: October-21-2017 Location: Northern CA Status: Offline Points: 149 |
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If im not mistaken that's my raw pump on the right with the pulley. Seems to me it will only attach to the boat in that config. Doing the test later when it warms up a bit here.
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1978 Martinique Ford 351 Windsor
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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Yes, that's the RWP. Look on the side of the body of the RWP towards the circulation pump and you will see the screw that Ken mentions and pictured. That's where it should be for a RR engine. BTW, the screw is what holds the cam inside the pump.
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 11087 |
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Looks like I can't see the screw so the pump is mounted for reverse rotation like it should be.
Some Commanders had the pump mounted a little differently but in the same spot, not quite as vertical, but yours looks right to me (and Pete)...........It's gotta be right Don't bother rotating it, but it could be rotated 180 by removing the hoses and the 2 bolts holding it to the bracket. How's them head gaskets with the lip hanging out or maybe not hanging out on one of them? |
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William777
Senior Member Joined: October-21-2017 Location: Northern CA Status: Offline Points: 149 |
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Thanks guys. I think this is good news....the tabs are sticking out on both sides on the head gaskets. It took a minute to get it started but finally it fired up. Have a hose in a bucket and there is 0 water being drawn from it. I remember a loud whining coming from the raw pump on the initial start two weeks ago. I thought it was because it was dry and when the water flowed it would stop. It did stop but maybe not for the reasons I assumed....I think its dead. I'll be very happy if we've solved the overheating issue without having to remove the heads, please god. I'm going out to remove it now and see if I can get it open. Onwards.....this would be the next step?
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1978 Martinique Ford 351 Windsor
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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Yes, open the RWP up and see what's going on inside. There is a possibility that the rubber impeller has sheared off it's hub.
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William777
Senior Member Joined: October-21-2017 Location: Northern CA Status: Offline Points: 149 |
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1978 Martinique Ford 351 Windsor
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William777
Senior Member Joined: October-21-2017 Location: Northern CA Status: Offline Points: 149 |
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Going out on a limb here and assuming it should not look like this...how could this happen and can someone refer me a part number please? Thanks guys.
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1978 Martinique Ford 351 Windsor
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Gary S
Grand Poobah Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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Sounds like you have never taken it apart before so you really have no idea what shape it was in before. They can tear up from age,running engine without water hooked up or mounting the housing backward so that the water does not get sucked through it. The incoming water lubricates it. Now your going to have to find those pieces so that they don't clog and cooing system parts. They sometimes end up in the thermostat housing or by the trans cooler
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 11087 |
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Can't slip nuthin' past you Bill It probably takes a Sherwood 09959K impeller or something that cross references to it Should be 5/8 shaft size and the width or depth of the piece in your hand should be about 1 1/4 inches. If the piece in your hand is about 1 5/8 inches deep then it's a 10615K impeller. They had 2 different Sherwood pumps on Commanders And don't forget to find all the pieces that you can. You'll need to look in the thermostat housing and the inlets to the exhaust manifolds and drain the manifolds and maybe a piece or two will come out the drains. Then you need to look on the suction side of the pump right at the inlet and with the suction hose off look at that hose and the transmission oil cooler outlet because some of those chunks can drain backwards and make their way back to the cooler.. As far as the impeller, some people are convinced that you need a genuine Sherwood impeller or it'll overheat, some aren't so convinced about that and use aftermarket equivalents .
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William777
Senior Member Joined: October-21-2017 Location: Northern CA Status: Offline Points: 149 |
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Measured it and it's the 10615K. Ordering it now. I'll scour for the pieces and drain the exhaust manifolds tomorrow. I'm thankful for your expert advice guys. Found a genuine Sherwood impeller on West Marine site,
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1978 Martinique Ford 351 Windsor
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63 Skier
Grand Poobah Joined: October-06-2006 Location: Concord, NH Status: Offline Points: 4269 |
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While you are waiting for the new impeller to arrive, search "timmy tee" on this site and plumb in a tee in your raw water intake hose that you can use to feed raw water from a hose for running on the trailer. It's the best and safest way to run on the trailer.
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'63 American Skier - '98 Sport Nautique
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 11087 |
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In case you're wondering, Sherwood called that an L80 pump in your boat It's obsolete now but you can still get parts for it through various places. As compared to the G20 or G21 pumps used on PCM Fords, because of the bigger impeller it has a few GPM more flow at most operating speeds and has 1 1/4 inch inlet and outlet connections while the G20, G21 have 1 inch connections The smaller Commander pump was a Sherwood J70 also obsolete but pretty much every part except the shaft is the same as the G20, G21 pumps
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Duane in Indy
Platinum Member Joined: October-26-2015 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 1578 |
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KENO, Nothing is OBSOLETE. Just takes a little time and some "backyard hackary skills" |
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Keep it as original as YOU want it
1978 Mustang (modified) |
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 11087 |
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You can't fool me Duane A real backyard hack does all his machine work with a 4 1/2 inch angle grinder. I guess if you add in your labor, that's a pretty expensive piece of hackery
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Duane in Indy
Platinum Member Joined: October-26-2015 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 1578 |
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Just glad I don't try to sell these given the time involved. BTW It did work great.
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Keep it as original as YOU want it
1978 Mustang (modified) |
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 11087 |
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63 Skier
Grand Poobah Joined: October-06-2006 Location: Concord, NH Status: Offline Points: 4269 |
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Duane, if that's hackery I wish I was more of a hack. Really impressive work! Ken, that grinder is so 1990's, you have to have a cordless one now so you have another charger and 2 batteries that are always dead.
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'63 American Skier - '98 Sport Nautique
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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Duane, After all the work and time you put into making it, glad to hear. Did you have a hard coat threatment done to it to prevent wear of the softer aluminum?
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