Lost power suddenly |
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gravyleg pirate
Groupie Joined: August-01-2012 Location: Lawrence, KS Status: Offline Points: 61 |
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Posted: July-17-2017 at 7:07pm |
Ok, so after an electronics adventure that I'm not entirely sure what fixed the problem outside a new starter, something new popped up. We were on our maiden voyage after "fixing" my 2000 Air Nautique and about 20 minutes into a run around the lake, the boat suddenly lost power and died.
I was able to re-start it and it ran for about 20 seconds then died again with no re-start after multiple attempts. The engine turns over really well but doesn't catch. Two things caught my eye under the hood: 1) the manifolds seem really hot; 2) there doesn't seem to be much gas being squirted into the carbs when I attempt to start. The gas was topped off on the way to the lake, and there was no extra smoke, coughing or gauges outside the normal range that I noticed. Is this a fuel pump problem or something else? thanks for all your expertise, I learn more useful info from this forum than I ever did in college! |
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GLP
"If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane" 2000 Air Nautique 216 (for 19 years) 2005 Air Nautique SV211 (2 months and counting...) |
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Dreaming
Platinum Member Joined: May-21-2010 Location: Tacoma, WA Status: Offline Points: 1870 |
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hot manifolds is a sign of a lack of cooling. What was your temp guage reading? Did you check the fresh water strainer? did you run it on the hose and leave the hose port open?
Just a couple of thoughts. overheat would probably shut the motor off. |
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 11087 |
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Here's a picture you took of your engine in a previous thread. I think you have a throttle body masquerading as a carburetor under that plastic cover. That will open you up to a whole new batch of possible problems if you're not getting gas when you're trying to start it [/QUOTE] |
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Dreaming
Platinum Member Joined: May-21-2010 Location: Tacoma, WA Status: Offline Points: 1870 |
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all that rusty splatter on the front of your engine looks like a cooliing leak too... you might not be getting water to the manifolds if the metal water distribution part is leaking.
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gravyleg pirate
Groupie Joined: August-01-2012 Location: Lawrence, KS Status: Offline Points: 61 |
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I didn't specifically check the gauges during this, but I would have thought that there would be some warning before the engine shutting down. The pic above was from the water pump breaking last summer. I'm going to pull the impeller cover to check it in addition to the water strainer.
I've always wanted to make a driveway lake assembly. This may a good a time as any. |
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GLP
"If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane" 2000 Air Nautique 216 (for 19 years) 2005 Air Nautique SV211 (2 months and counting...) |
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Dreaming
Platinum Member Joined: May-21-2010 Location: Tacoma, WA Status: Offline Points: 1870 |
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yep... search for the timmy Tee. 20 bucks at lowes and you have a lake assembly also good for changing the oil at home, and any other reason you need a driveway run.
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gravyleg pirate
Groupie Joined: August-01-2012 Location: Lawrence, KS Status: Offline Points: 61 |
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Ok, so I tried the engine again and it would turn over and start but only briefly before dying. I poked around underneath the engine and didn't see any obvious leaks from the water distribution. Is there a way to check that somehow? Dyed water maybe?
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GLP
"If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane" 2000 Air Nautique 216 (for 19 years) 2005 Air Nautique SV211 (2 months and counting...) |
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 11087 |
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Back in the start of this thread you asked this question and after seeing your last post I'm thinking you're on the right track with a fuel problem, but whether it's a pump problem or fuel supply to the pump problem or a power to the pump problem is what you'll need to figure out first Just what my gut is telling me from a few thousand miles away |
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SNobsessed
Grand Poobah Joined: October-21-2007 Location: IA Status: Offline Points: 7102 |
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The cooling issue is separate from the non-running.
You need to figure out if it is a fuel or ignition failure. Could be both if the electrical system isn't getting power. Squirt some gas down throttle body (put flame arrestor back on & have fire X ready) & then try to start it. It should run for about 10 seconds. If not, start testing the ignition system. |
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“Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.”
Ben Franklin |
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gravyleg pirate
Groupie Joined: August-01-2012 Location: Lawrence, KS Status: Offline Points: 61 |
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So I got the bright idea to check the FCC and the fuel filter specifically first before I delicately pour gas down the throttle body.
Then it turned into an obsession getting that freaking thing off! I removed the whole assembly and put it in the vice, then threaded a pair of four inch bolts through the top. A six foot long "persuader bar" then made for a fairly hard removal, but I was successful. Now, I have a bunch of white debris inside, sort of looks like corrosion. How do I tell if the pump is still good, or if the filter is still good? |
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GLP
"If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane" 2000 Air Nautique 216 (for 19 years) 2005 Air Nautique SV211 (2 months and counting...) |
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Gary S
Grand Poobah Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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Filter is recommended to be replaced every year. That seems a little excessive but by the looks of that one,it's past due. That pump with that white line looks to have been sitting in water. Might be worth changing too. Changing out a pump is cheaper than a tow or getting yourself into a tight situation.
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Dreaming
Platinum Member Joined: May-21-2010 Location: Tacoma, WA Status: Offline Points: 1870 |
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I agree with Gary - the white is corrosion, if the outside of the pump looks like that, so does the inside. Pump could certainly be your issue, but I hate throwing parts at stuff, so I might put that on the bench and test it to see if it works before replacing change the filter for sure, I would put some anti-sneeze on the threads of that unit when putting back together, or maybe some Dow corning DC-4 if there is a rubber seal. you want to be able to get it apart next time without having to do major boat surgery.
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gravyleg pirate
Groupie Joined: August-01-2012 Location: Lawrence, KS Status: Offline Points: 61 |
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Is there a way to test the pump outside the boat? Or is it better to hook it back up to the engine and fire it up?
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GLP
"If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane" 2000 Air Nautique 216 (for 19 years) 2005 Air Nautique SV211 (2 months and counting...) |
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Gary S
Grand Poobah Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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Depends on what you mean about testing. Sure you can run it but you could not test any pressure. You would also have to be very careful on what fluid you use to pump and creating sparks.
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gravyleg pirate
Groupie Joined: August-01-2012 Location: Lawrence, KS Status: Offline Points: 61 |
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Ok, update number two?
Installed new fuel pump and filter. Attempted to start several times without success until I used starter fluid. Boat fired up great but did not continue to run. Looking at the carb jets, I'm not getting any gas squirting out when attempting to start. Now, I know the FCC is empty as I opened the drain plug at the bottom out of curiosity. Whats next then? Where is the fuel relay and what about the small oil filter looking contraption attached to the FCC just off the block? Frustration is mounting, but not fully realized yet! |
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GLP
"If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane" 2000 Air Nautique 216 (for 19 years) 2005 Air Nautique SV211 (2 months and counting...) |
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JoeinNY
Grand Poobah Joined: October-19-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5698 |
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If you replaced that pump then I would not expect it to work, FCC was empty so that means the low-pressure fuel pump that feeds it is the problem and not the high pressure pump that is in the fcc. Get yourself a low pressure pump and go boating... I mean sure it could be the relay or something else but it's almost always the low pressure pump.
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gravyleg pirate
Groupie Joined: August-01-2012 Location: Lawrence, KS Status: Offline Points: 61 |
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Alright, I think I'm getting closer! I removed my low pressure fuel pump and took the plate off. There was some pretty rusty colored gas coming out, and the top looks pretty dirty, but I don't have anything to compare it to. What do you guys think?
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GLP
"If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane" 2000 Air Nautique 216 (for 19 years) 2005 Air Nautique SV211 (2 months and counting...) |
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63 Skier
Grand Poobah Joined: October-06-2006 Location: Concord, NH Status: Offline Points: 4269 |
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I think you should replace it, good chance that was the no-start no-fuel problem. If you want to verify there is power to it first you can do so, if it was me I'd replace it regardless.
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'63 American Skier - '98 Sport Nautique
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MrMcD
Grand Poobah Joined: January-28-2014 Location: Folsom, CA Status: Offline Points: 3748 |
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The Low Pressure Pump is a Carter design. The corrosion you see is common when they sit a long time between uses. Clean it, make sure the pump can rotate smoothly then put power to it. It will either work or not. If it works they are good. These are a very durable and forgiving design. This pump was used in Motorhomes for 25 years. Many Motorhome owners learned to take the pump apart and clean it to get them going again.
Old fuel drying up in the pump causes them to lock up. |
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gravyleg pirate
Groupie Joined: August-01-2012 Location: Lawrence, KS Status: Offline Points: 61 |
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How do I clean it? Could I spray some seafoam or carb cleaner inside to break up the corrosion?
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GLP
"If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane" 2000 Air Nautique 216 (for 19 years) 2005 Air Nautique SV211 (2 months and counting...) |
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MrMcD
Grand Poobah Joined: January-28-2014 Location: Folsom, CA Status: Offline Points: 3748 |
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I have used WD 40. All you need to do it get the dry hard particles out of the pump and housing. You want to avoid running any electric pump dry. These are fuel lubricated motors and they can burn up in 10 seconds if run dry. Spray the parts with WD40 and wipe the parts clean spray them again and assemble. See if it works. In 5 minutes you will know if you need to order a new pump.
If id does not spin freely after cleaning it probably ran dry and the bushings are damaged. You can't fix that. |
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gravyleg pirate
Groupie Joined: August-01-2012 Location: Lawrence, KS Status: Offline Points: 61 |
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Thanks! I soaked the snot out of it and let it sit for about thirty minutes. Plugged it back in and it didn't make a sound. I'm not seeing a way to take it apart any more though. No screws that I can see and the whole assembly seems to be pressed together.
Can I twist the bottom part of the canister apart somehow? |
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GLP
"If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane" 2000 Air Nautique 216 (for 19 years) 2005 Air Nautique SV211 (2 months and counting...) |
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gravyleg pirate
Groupie Joined: August-01-2012 Location: Lawrence, KS Status: Offline Points: 61 |
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I realized I hadn't included very good pics. Looking inside my low pressure pump I can see some corrosion and rust and when I stuck a screwdriver inside it didn't seem to move in any way. I did get out the multimeter and stuck the prongs down inside the plug on the engine side and had good power when I hit the ignition. So there's that.
Looks like its time to talk to skidim again.... |
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GLP
"If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane" 2000 Air Nautique 216 (for 19 years) 2005 Air Nautique SV211 (2 months and counting...) |
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63 Skier
Grand Poobah Joined: October-06-2006 Location: Concord, NH Status: Offline Points: 4269 |
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Right, it's not that someone like me that suggests you get a new one, or Joe above who knows an awful lot about these, is suggesting just tossing parts at your engine. If I know my low pressure pump is on its way out or questionable, that's a good enough reason for me to replace it. Days on the water are too hard to come by to take a chance on getting towed in because I saved a few bucks and got a few more boat hours on my old pump.
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'63 American Skier - '98 Sport Nautique
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gravyleg pirate
Groupie Joined: August-01-2012 Location: Lawrence, KS Status: Offline Points: 61 |
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You guys are absolutely right. Thank you all for your expertise and experience. I'm not completely mechanically minded, but I do like to at least take a look and see if something can be fixed first. Sort of the "I can't get the VCR to work" syndrome when all it needs is to be plugged in!
Thanks for all the help, can't wait for my new pump! |
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GLP
"If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane" 2000 Air Nautique 216 (for 19 years) 2005 Air Nautique SV211 (2 months and counting...) |
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Gary S
Grand Poobah Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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That's the original pump too, at 17 years old it's time for new. Most if not all have been changed by now. Not cheap at 200+ at skidim but there are alternatives like Carter P 4389
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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I wonder if someone could cross the pump over to "off the shelf" Carter from Summit? Better than half the price from Skidim!!!
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Gary S
Grand Poobah Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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Just google my number above, they can be found for under 60 bucks Summit is about 20 more. You will have to cut your plug off and use marine butt splices to connect, just like your dealer would
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gravyleg pirate
Groupie Joined: August-01-2012 Location: Lawrence, KS Status: Offline Points: 61 |
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holy cow! You guys weren't kidding about the price difference! Thanks for finding that!
How do you know what cross references what? I don't see a number or anything on the pump itself. While we're at it how do I go about finding a cheaper thermostat then? It was listed at about $80 from the marine supply places, which is about $60 more than every other type of thermostat. I won't hijack this thread, just taking advantage of free advice when presented! |
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GLP
"If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane" 2000 Air Nautique 216 (for 19 years) 2005 Air Nautique SV211 (2 months and counting...) |
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gravyleg pirate
Groupie Joined: August-01-2012 Location: Lawrence, KS Status: Offline Points: 61 |
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Getting closer! I installed the new low pressure fuel pump and I actually have good gas into the FCC. Know how I know? It sprayed out the top fitting where I didn't get the barrel tight enough. No problem tightened and I can actually hear the LP pump whirring.
Boat still won't start. Will fire up with starter fluid sprayed into the carb, but only runs about 10 seconds before dying. There doesn't seem to be much spray coming out of the jets upon attempting to start. Any thoughts on this? |
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GLP
"If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane" 2000 Air Nautique 216 (for 19 years) 2005 Air Nautique SV211 (2 months and counting...) |
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