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1.23:1 Transmission leak

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    Posted: May-22-2012 at 5:29pm
I know that every case is different, and that no one can diagnose a problem without a complete set of information, however, I have a small leak in my 1989 1.23:1 transmission, and I can't tell exactly where it's coming from.

My question is: if you have had a leak from a 1.23:1 PCM transmission, what was the source? Input shaft seal? Output shaft? Something else?

I know it's not blowing out the vent, or leaking from the cooler hoses, but it's still slow enough that it's hard to differentiate between what's leaking and what's just covered in oil from oily water sloshing around in the bilge. Just thought I'd ask and see if there was a common failure point, so I could order a $10 seal on a gamble before pulling it, or if I just have to pull it and see before ordering any parts. I'd love to pull, repair, and replace all in one shot. I do intend to clean everything once more and see if I can find the source that way.

Thanks for any thoughts or input.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kapla Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-22-2012 at 5:42pm
not too many places, either input or output shaft or hoses...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stepper459 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-23-2012 at 1:47pm
Originally posted by kapla kapla wrote:

not too many places, either input or output shaft or hoses...


Indeed. I suppose I'll have to pull it anyway. I may just order the complete seal and gasket set for the transmission and replace a bunch of seals, it does have 1360 hours on it...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bri892001 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-23-2012 at 2:27pm
Pete (8122pbrainard) has mentioned in other threads, that internal issues can cause the seals to keep blowing. I'd search around a bit, and see if you can find this info.

Eric Lavine is typically the person to consult, or to just send your transmission too. He has been quiet on here lately though.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stepper459 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-05-2012 at 1:23pm
I've searched around a bit but couldn't find anything specific on what might be causing the issue internally. It's got a lot of hours, but I don't beat on it either.

I pulled the transmission last night and replaced a leaking input shaft seal. Everything went back together smoothly, however, there is now sometimes a noise in neutral, like a whirring noise, coming from near the transmission. It vibrates at a high frequency, with the noise. It goes away if you move the shift lever, before it even goes into gear. There is no noise in gear that I can tell. Again, the trans has 1360+ hours, but I change the oil every 100 hours, and the fluid has always looked good. It doesn't always make the sound, and I'm hoping it will dissipate with a few hours of use, but something tells me it won't. I replaced the damper plate a couple years ago, maybe 3 years now.

Any thoughts are appreciated...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stepper459 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-06-2012 at 7:54pm
Best current theory is the splines on the input shaft vibrating slightly against the damper plate where it fits in. I did clean the splines a bit when I disassembled, because they had some rust and other crap built up in them. Will have to pull it back apart and grease the splines to see if that does it. At least that doesn't involve the trans coming out of the boat again.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-06-2012 at 9:44pm
Originally posted by stepper459 stepper459 wrote:

Best current theory is the splines on the input shaft vibrating slightly against the damper plate where it fits in. I did clean the splines a bit when I disassembled, because they had some rust and other crap built up in them. Will have to pull it back apart and grease the splines to see if that does it. At least that doesn't involve the trans coming out of the boat again.

Who's theory? As Brian stated, I have mentioned it several times about the front seal leaking problem. The most common cause is a worn pump. When worn, the oil bypasses the pump and pressurized the seal area. When in good shape, that front seal should see very little to no pressure.

So, you mentioned you checked the trans internally. How and what did you check?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eric lavine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-07-2012 at 8:36am
i wish i could spend more time on, not quiet just tired, also did you check the shaft where the seal rides, with that many hours im sure its grooved...got a ton of those shafts lying around used
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stepper459 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-07-2012 at 12:50pm
Originally posted by 8122pbrainard 8122pbrainard wrote:


Who's theory? As Brian stated, I have mentioned it several times about the front seal leaking problem. The most common cause is a worn pump. When worn, the oil bypasses the pump and pressurized the seal area. When in good shape, that front seal should see very little to no pressure.

So, you mentioned you checked the trans internally. How and what did you check?


Just to clarify, I've searched online and tried to find out what specific internal issues might be causing excess pressure, but didn't find what you mentioned, being a worn pump. I haven't taken the trans apart any further than to remove the pump plate and replace the rubber o-rings and the front (input) seal. I didn't see anything wrong with the pump, but what would I be looking for?

I cleaned the trans and surrounding area thoroughly while still in the boat, then put a fresh white oil-zorb pad under it. After a little use, there was a red spot near the bell housing, pointing to the input seal.

When I pulled the trans out, I found lots of fluid on and around the front seal, too. The pump cover came off very easily; much easier than it went back together, which indicated to me that the old seal was in fact worn.

@eric lavine - where the seal rides on the input shaft it was a little worn but not anything I could catch my fingernail on; I could see it but not really feel it, does that make sense?

My first thought with the sound was that the seal was spinning dry, but that doesn't really make sense since it goes away in gear. The "chattering on the damper plate splines" theory is from a friend who is a full time marine tech; I work at a marina, and this noise is somewhat new to everyone who's listened to it, so I figured this was the place to go.

Thanks guys for your replies and thoughts, I really appreciate it.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-08-2012 at 9:49am
Originally posted by stepper459 stepper459 wrote:

Originally posted by 8122pbrainard 8122pbrainard wrote:

So, you mentioned you checked the trans internally. How and what did you check?


Just to clarify, I've searched online and tried to find out what specific internal issues might be causing excess pressure, but didn't find what you mentioned, being a worn pump. I haven't taken the trans apart any further than to remove the pump plate and replace the rubber o-rings and the front (input) seal. I didn't see anything wrong with the pump, but what would I be looking for?

The "chattering on the damper plate splines" theory is from a friend who is a full time marine tech; I work at a marina, and this noise is somewhat new to everyone who's listened to it, so I figured this was the place to go.

Ask the mechanics for the rebuild manual for the trans. It will have the pump tolerance specs in it. Get the micrometer out and do some checking.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JoeinNY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-08-2012 at 11:10am
The new seal might not fix the leak but it is in there and certainly won’t make it worse. As to the noise it is certainly caused by something you did (or didn’t do) on remove and install. Have you readjusted the control cables to ensure that neutral is actually neutral?   Movement between the splines and damper plate would possibly indicate misalignment between the trans and the flywheel, or the damper on the flywheel. Perhaps your three year ago replacement never got the damper well centered and lead to your front seal leak?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stepper459 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-08-2012 at 2:04pm
Pete - great idea, though I don't think we have a manual with those specs. We haven't had many issues with these transmissions except for major failures resulting from owner neglect. If I can track down the specs I'll check it, but I think greasing the input shaft is worth trying first.

It's also indicative that -to joe's point- it's most likely (okay certainly) something I did, or didn't do, because it didn't make noise anything like that before the most recent r&r.
As far as being right in neutral, I didn't adjust the cable but I checked the movement and shifting with the cable disconnected and it seems right on. When I replaced the damper plate I don't remember being able to move it much on the flywheel. In fact I thought the plate had pins that lined it up, in addition to the bolts? It was a while ago, though.

I think the next logical step is to grease the shaft and see if the noise improves. While kind of a PITA, it's free.

Again, great thoughts from you all, thanks for the input. I often find myself searching through these forums when we come across a weird issue, this is such a great resource.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-08-2012 at 2:27pm
Morgan,
Instead of grease, I suggest Never-Seize. In the long run it will last longer due to the copper and graphite "plating out" the wear/contact surface of the splines.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote M3Fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-08-2012 at 3:43pm
Sounds like symptoms of a noise called by the valve body in the early 1:23 PCMs. Kinda sounds like squirrels in a blender and comes and goes in neutral?

There is a fix for this from PCM which essentially is a length of hydraulic hose that screws into the valve body and gives the fluid some breathing room. This sound drove me NUTS on my 1990, even causing me to change my damper plate (which of course wasn't the problem).

So, although this problem just "sprang up", it sure sounds like the early 1:23 valve body noise. Worth working into the possible list of causes.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stepper459 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-08-2012 at 7:07pm
Pete - sounds good, I had planned to use a Mercruiser product used on the splined shafts on sterndrives; anti-sieze sounds like a good call though, based on your reasoning. I might not need it though, based on this:

M3fan - I had one of those hoses on my transmission. The outer casing was all cracked and I thought it was just a place to suck out the fluid, like the oil change hose on the oil pan. So I took it off and threw it in the dumpster. I just came back from a little dumpster diving and I'm going to put it back on after work. I didn't even mention it because I assumed (insert common expression) that it couldn't possibly be related, based on my lack of knowledge of its purpose. The other guys listened to the sound only briefly, and didn't look closely at anything, so no one else knew I had removed that part.

If I get a chance I might even sneak out and put that piece back in before the end of the day. I'm dying to know...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JoeinNY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-08-2012 at 7:32pm
remove the part that supposed to keep it from buzzing and then it buzzed ...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stepper459 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-08-2012 at 7:42pm
Well, I had to know. I ran out to the boat and put the hose back on and it did not cure the sound. It's accompanied by a pretty significant vibration, like a very weak palm sander or something; I think it's gotta be associated with the input shaft... I was really hoping it was going to magically go away with that hose back on there.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote M3Fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-08-2012 at 7:45pm
Originally posted by stepper459 stepper459 wrote:

Well, I had to know. I ran out to the boat and put the hose back on and it did not cure the sound. It's accompanied by a pretty significant vibration, like a very weak palm sander or something; I think it's gotta be associated with the input shaft... I was really hoping it was going to magically go away with that hose back on there.


It may not insta-fix- I'd lake test it, shift it in and out of gear, etc. and let all the pressures balance out and whatnot before drawing the conclusion. Removing the part that takes away the buzz most definitely created the buzz! Also, there are a couple of possible bosses in the valve body that it could screw into- make sure you screwed it into the right one. Let's have a pic of said hose.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-08-2012 at 7:48pm
Morgan,
I'm getting the impression that those "techs" you work with are I/O guys. Once you get through this, you'll be able to teach them something!

BTW, Merc makes inboards too!!


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stepper459 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-08-2012 at 8:14pm
Originally posted by 8122pbrainard 8122pbrainard wrote:

Morgan,
I'm getting the impression that those "techs" you work with are I/O guys. Once you get through this, you'll be able to teach them something!

BTW, Merc makes inboards too!!


In their defense, they're busy as hell and not giving my problem much thought. But we do work on a lot more I/O's than inboards, and yeah we've got a handful of Merc inboards, too. I got a lot of grief when I mentioned the hose because I hadn't said anything about it before. I will take it for a ride and be sure that the sound is not changed before I take anything else apart. Thanks again for the input! Pete - one thing's for sure, they always like to learn something new.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eric lavine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-09-2012 at 10:21am
I can assure you the valve buzz is not causing the leak, the shaft and seal is very tempermental, there were 3 different valves made for that trans and some of the early ones created an hydraulic buzz, the hose acts as an accumulator (shock absorber) and expands and contracts to alleviate the buzz, cheesy repair but it works. as for your seal, and o-rings, you need to polish the shaft with 800 or 1000 grit and replace the seals and o-rings
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eric lavine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-09-2012 at 10:24am
also, with the hours you may be hearing a planetary noise also, they are straight cut spur gears and will whins, normally the buzzing valve is there thru all ranges and does not dis-appate, fix the leaks and go skiing
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stepper459 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-11-2012 at 2:16pm
I am confident that the old seal was leaking; there is no leak now with the new seal. I did polish the shaft with 1000 grit when I had it apart, and also replaced the nearby o-rings while I was there.

The sound is more than just a little buzz, it's clearly audible even with the motor cover closed and the rear floor in place. You can even feel the vibration in the shift handle, almost like a cell phone vibration but a little stronger.

I used the boat yesterday and didn't hear the sound every time I'd take it out of gear, only some of the time. But when it does happen it's not any quieter than before, which, if it were related to the little expansion hose, it seems like the noise would be dissipating with use. The jury's still out on this one. I will most definitely report the result, even though it may be a little while before I can really know. I hope you all had a nice weekend, it was beautiful up here in New Hampshire, high 70's and clear, light breeze, 100% perfect.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stepper459 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-25-2012 at 12:35pm
I've now put 10-15 hours on the boat since the last post here and the sound has only appeared once, just after starting the engine, and only for half a second. No leaks, either; I'm due for an engine oil change now so when I do that I'll eyeball everything else in there and clean the bilge one more time to be sure there isn't any small leak that I'm missing. Nice to have clean water coming out of the bilge for a change, I'm sure the lake appreciates it too. I always have an oil-zorb sock in there but still...

The biggest lesson on this one (for me anyway) is that no detail is too small or insignificant when describing the steps performed that led to a problem.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ultrarunner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-26-2012 at 2:49am
Originally posted by stepper459 stepper459 wrote:

My question is: if you have had a leak from a 1.23:1 PCM transmission, what was the source? Input shaft seal? Output shaft? Something else? ..


Persistent trans fluid in bilge last year. Dripping from bell housing. So I confirmed the need to pull the trans at end of season...

Here is the pic of my culprit...little bastard!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stepper459 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-26-2012 at 1:00pm
Classic, a 12 cent part behind a couple hours of labor.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JoeinNY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-26-2012 at 1:13pm
Originally posted by stepper459 stepper459 wrote:

Classic, a 12 cent part behind a couple hours of labor.


I find it easier if I think of it as quality time with the boat and not "labor"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ultrarunner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-26-2012 at 1:32pm
That's the spirit. That 12 cent part turned into a couple hundred bucks, since on a 13 year old boat, you just gotta replace the damper plate. Glad I did it though. Pretty easy in and out with the tips from the gurus on here.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stepper459 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-26-2012 at 8:01pm
Originally posted by JoeinNY JoeinNY wrote:

Originally posted by stepper459 stepper459 wrote:

Classic, a 12 cent part behind a couple hours of labor.


I find it easier if I think of it as quality time with the boat and not "labor"


Right on, that's a better way to look at it. In fact it's those types of jobs that make you want to DIY in the first place, if you didn't already have 10 reasons.
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