Original Correct Craft Molds |
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Nautique2001
Grand Poobah Joined: June-14-2004 Location: Massachusetts Status: Offline Points: 2832 |
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Agree, why make a 2006 model cheap for the sake of getting it into a lower price bracket. Don't get me wrong, I like all BMW's and Mercedes, however for them to market $28K, compact cars brings their image down.
Correct Craft manufacturing proven, basic boats from the past at an affordable price tag would be realistic. Look how many entry level boaters look for older Correct Craft hulls for the natural wake for wakeboarding. No need to spend $60+K. Buy a 2007, 1980 Nautique with modern day equipment. Heck, install a new 351, carbureted engine to save more money! FI can be an option. I believe you can keep the price tag under $30K. Ken |
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jon4pres
Senior Member Joined: September-19-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 275 |
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I agree about keeping these boats simple. I dont know if correct craft needs to have an entry level boat. They sell all of there boats at unreal prices so why would they make something that they would not make as much money on at the cost of producing there high end models.
Malibu and Mastercraft have recently come out with entry level wake boats (vride and X1) but at 40k I would hardly call them cheap. I think our best bet is for someone to make their own molds. I have realized that they do make the exact boat that I want. If you look at the hull of a new 210 you will notice how similar it is to a 2001, Just a little bigger. The problem is new price = 60k. I would say if they ever make an "entry level boat" it will be the 210 and will still cost over 40k. |
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jon4pres
Senior Member Joined: September-19-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 275 |
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Hollywood
Moderator Group Joined: February-04-2004 Location: Twin Lakes, WI Status: Offline Points: 13512 |
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That boat was/is real nice, but remember how long it took to sell? There are plenty of us that think it's a great idea but not many ready to front the $$$.
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XFooter
Newbie Joined: July-12-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 26 |
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Here's what I'd like:
http://www.correctcraftfan.com/reference/1979_brochure/index.asp?page=04 A 2007 Closed Bow, All Fiberglass (no wood stringers), Dual Exhaust 1979 style Correct Craft Ski Tique |
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Lake Pleasant/Speculator, NY |
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75 Tique
Grand Poobah Joined: August-12-2004 Location: Seven Lakes, NC Status: Offline Points: 6107 |
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Bill,
Me too. But do the few of us that would like a new and improved retro small boat warrant the investment in production. This topic came up a year or so ago, old thread I think the consensus back then was that as much as a few of us think that its a great idea, it just wouldn't sell enough to warrant production, as suggested by the short life of the 176. Maybe the retro lines and graphics rather than new lines but with attributes of new boats (like all fiberglass) would sell more, but it would seem that smaller boats have little market now. As far as another company being launched to do it...well they wouldn't be correct crafts and hence a hard sell to correct craft fans...plus how would it be branded Ski Teek or Ski Nauteek. And still, would it sell. Would you want a reproduction Model A? (On the other hand, as noted above, the retro Ford Mustangs are doing quite well and the T-Bird was great, although now out of business again) Not raining on anyones parade and its not that I dont think its a good idea, I love my little Tique and think a modern one would be great, but I don't think they could be built for the prices people are suggesting here ($8,000 in 1979 $ is probably about $20,000 in todays $). Well with all that negative crap being said, of course its a neat idea. I'd like to hear how CC responds. If someone starts a new company to do it, I will probably live to regret not being one of the initial investors. |
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“So, how was your weekend?” “Well, let me see…sun burn, stiff neck, screwed up back, assorted aches and pains….yup, my weekend was great, thanks for asking.” |
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XFooter
Newbie Joined: July-12-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 26 |
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75 Tique,
While I realize a new "1979 style" 16ft Ski Tique will more than likely never happen, I still want one. :-) |
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Lake Pleasant/Speculator, NY |
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75 Tique
Grand Poobah Joined: August-12-2004 Location: Seven Lakes, NC Status: Offline Points: 6107 |
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Bill,
Agreed, and there is certainly no harm in that. And you just never know, just like Spencer Boat Works in your neck of the woods can make a living making specialty boats, one of the enterprising guys on this site just might surprise us. |
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“So, how was your weekend?” “Well, let me see…sun burn, stiff neck, screwed up back, assorted aches and pains….yup, my weekend was great, thanks for asking.” |
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Nautique2001
Grand Poobah Joined: June-14-2004 Location: Massachusetts Status: Offline Points: 2832 |
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Seriously, how much would it cost for CC Inc., time and materials to reproduce one or two classic boats? They're not fancy boats, just all out towing machines. I'm not a fan of a lot of gagits, so keep it simple. Time and material for hull, interior and part, I bet it's under $5,000. A basic PCM, 351 engine transmission would probably be $5,000 their cost. So they need to make a profit, add another $8,000 to the boat and call it $18,000 for what used to cost $11K to $12K new. I could be way off the mark, but I believe it could work. I would pay $18,000 for a brand new ski boat in a heart beat!!! Even if they charged $28,000 for the 2001 model, I'm there. Better than $40+K for a new one.
Keep posting comments, I will get this thread to the decision makers at CC Inc. Nothing to lose, right? Ken |
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05 210
Platinum Member Joined: February-17-2006 Location: Southern Maine Status: Offline Points: 1481 |
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Funny,I just heard that exact thing may actually be coming,from someone who should know.He didn't mention the price,though.Makes me a little nervous as it may affect the value of mine.I'm really starting to appreciate the lines,look,and sound of the older boats.I do like the idea and yes we do have a new retro looking Mustang,but be careful what you wish for guys.If you could buy a new,retro looking,reliable,modern boat for 25k,and in 3-4 years it's worth 18k or so,where does that leave the value of your mid 80's boat?Obviously the reason they hold their value now is because guys like you who keep them nice and pour your heart and soul into them,are outweighed by the people that want them.They just don't build them like they used to,but to be honest,after spankin' my wifes new "GT" down the road,I would have no desire to buy an old one....unless it was a Shelby GT500 of course! I hope this didn't come across as negative,It was meant to be more of a "caution" and is only one persons opinion.Good luck with it. Mike |
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Nautique2001
Grand Poobah Joined: June-14-2004 Location: Massachusetts Status: Offline Points: 2832 |
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Can't wait to see the 2007 line-up.
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Dank
Senior Member Joined: April-05-2005 Location: Austin, TX Status: Offline Points: 296 |
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Ugh...I had a long post and lost half of it. Anyhoo, Let's assume from a marketing pov that the wakeboading market is bigger than the pure ski market (at least families that want to do both). The 2001 is still a contender evidenced by the number of people wakeboarding in the old models. Some people might think of them as gadgets, but I think min req's would be a tower, perfect pass, and an internal ballast system (maybe a place to put one with some DIY instructions). A quick look @ wakeworld's boat guide shows the cheapest new wakeboat @ about $31K. I think a quality entry level wakeboat that throws a great wake in the $20K - $25K range could be a winner.
From my un-educated view it seems that alot of the reason the new boats are priced the way they are is that the market will bare it. An 18ft Bayliner MSRPs for 20,735...does it really cost 10K more to make a Moomba? The boats that used to be considered cheaper alternatives to CC, MC and Supra (Malibu, Tige, Moomba) have crept up into the $31K - $66K range. Yes, the Malibu 25LSV MSRPs for $66.5K, how many of those do they sell? I guess enough to keep the boat in production. If anything it seems that the boat manufacturers are going after the high end market...not entry level. I guess they've determined there are enough people out there willing to pay 40K+ for a new boat and the entry level is served by people buying up 1980's CCs at inflated prices :) Sorry for the novella, I like the idea of a "new" retro CC. Or there might be room for a new low cost wakeboat manufacturer. the fact that it's not a "true" CC could be an issue, but people buy Taurus handguns knowing they are built in an old Beretta factory. |
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"I don't know what the world may need, but a V8 engine's a good start for me"
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trikeaholic
Senior Member Joined: August-10-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 163 |
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jeez, Dank, according to your diary link, your wife has alot more friends than mine does, alot thinner too!
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bkhallpass
Grand Poobah Joined: March-29-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4723 |
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Dank,
It's a numbers issue. Yes, it does cost a lot more to make a moomba than a bayliner. I don't know the exact number of moomba's made per year, but I'm guessing less than 200. Bayliner just makes a lot more boats. With greater production comes economies of scale. The entire ski boating industry, including ski and wake boats is about 4000 boats per year. BKH |
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Livin' the Dream
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Dank
Senior Member Joined: April-05-2005 Location: Austin, TX Status: Offline Points: 296 |
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trike, she'd appreciate the compliment
bkh, good point about the number of boats produced. I'm in the silicon development tool business and know the difference in building 15 vs 1500. That's the gamble with any new boat...build as many as you can to keep the price as low as possible, but not so many that you can't sell. |
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"I don't know what the world may need, but a V8 engine's a good start for me"
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trikeaholic
Senior Member Joined: August-10-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 163 |
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not thinner than MY wife, just the friends! LOL! although mine will NOT wear a bikini for anything.
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81nautique
Grand Poobah Joined: September-03-2005 Location: Big Rock, Il Status: Offline Points: 5772 |
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Caution, This is just my 2 cents.
Have you guys seen the number of I/O boats out there with a tower on them, every brand made now has a "wakeboard" boat and I think those are your real entry level boats in the low $20s. Mass produced, sprayed through chopper guns, use em up disposable boats. Most of those buyers are families that are out to have some fun with the kids and probably own more tubes than wakeboards. I consider that demographic entry level and would bet most of those people don't know what an inboard boat is. IMHO if you can't compete with the low cost manufactures then don't or your business will just die a slow painful death. Find a niche and go after it with all you've got and $50K wake board boats are selling so that's where I'd rather be than beating your head against the wall trying to compete with the mass market on price. Competing on price sucks and it's a miserable way to run a business. From a pure business perspective there should never be any inboard boat that sells for less than $30k not because they cost more to build but simply because they are worth paying more for and if you want one you'll pony up the dough. And don't think you can't afford one, the finance guy will make sure you can even if it takes you 15 years to pay for it. |
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You can’t change the wind but you can adjust your sails
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Nautique2001
Grand Poobah Joined: June-14-2004 Location: Massachusetts Status: Offline Points: 2832 |
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If the exact same high quality and well proven vintage CC hull is re-manufactured, I wouldn't think we'd have quality concerns. I would put a used 60's, 70's and 80's boat up against a new $30K I/O boat with a tower anytime.
Financing a $50K boat for 15 years at a reasonable rate would be $40,000. Ken |
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Hollywood
Moderator Group Joined: February-04-2004 Location: Twin Lakes, WI Status: Offline Points: 13512 |
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There was some knockoff company a few years back I saw on Ebay selling inboards in Europe. It looked like they reverse engineered the mold of the 90-96 SN all the way down to the deck. I know I've got pictures on my home computer I will share tonight. They even copied the "Air" graphics too.
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Nautique2001
Grand Poobah Joined: June-14-2004 Location: Massachusetts Status: Offline Points: 2832 |
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That would be interesting to see.
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David F
Platinum Member Joined: June-11-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1770 |
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Hey Dan:
I was trying to figure out where the in-water shots were taken. Is that Ski Shores on Lake Austin? If so, that is my families favorite food/drink/music stop on the lake. |
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Dank
Senior Member Joined: April-05-2005 Location: Austin, TX Status: Offline Points: 296 |
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81, good point. I would agree that those boats const*tute entry level boats. What makes them more popular though? I would guess...price, seating room, better fuel consumption(?) and maybe a smoother ride in rougher water (although do new boaters know this is the case?)
David...yep, got it right, ski shores, back on the left side where you park when all the front spots are full. We're big fans of that place. Was that you out on lake austin this morning? By your post times I guess not, but it sure looked like your boat. |
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"I don't know what the world may need, but a V8 engine's a good start for me"
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81nautique
Grand Poobah Joined: September-03-2005 Location: Big Rock, Il Status: Offline Points: 5772 |
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[QUOTE=Dank] 81, good point. I would agree that those boats const*tute entry level boats. What makes them more popular though? I would guess...price, seating room, better fuel consumption(?) and maybe a smoother ride in rougher water (although do new boaters know this is the case?)
QUOTE] All of the above Dank, But once someone serious about their sport drives and skis an inboard they're hooked. You can never go back. So maybe it's an eduacation/marketing thing or lack of. I don't think these companies have the budget for major advertising and still rely on good old word of mouth and sponsoring events but that just keeps them in front of buyers who already know the product. I also think buying an inboard is an evolution process, how many here had an inboard as their first boat, not me but my second sure was. All of the inboard mgf'r have a certain image within the circle but it's a major task and expense to go beyond that. |
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You can’t change the wind but you can adjust your sails
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alalor1
Newbie Joined: August-07-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 34 |
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I might stir a revolution, I have to disagree with dchris17 about boat quality. I agree that bayliners have very questionable quality, and having owned a malibu too, I have to add that they are not much better. but having owned 3 correct crafts and currently owning a centurion and a correct craft (and done abundant work on all of them), I am surprised to see that centurions are considered to be at the same level as the first two I mentioned. I have to say that they are at almost the same quality level of the correct craft products in materials, craftmanship and design. I love my super sport, but my concours is great too. If dchris has had bad experience with a centurion, I'd love to hear about it, with details. Thanks from friendly Texas (where only Tigs and SkiPros are made).
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1st. Law of Economics: For every economist, there's an equal and
opposite economist. 2nd. Law of Economics: They are both wrong I'd rather be sailing ~~~_/) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ |
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Poster112
Senior Member Joined: May-28-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 206 |
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As long as these folks are paying that kind of money for the newer CC boats every day, it actually keeps the demand and price for older CCs down. We know that the supply is down on the older ones, so as long as the demand stays low, we "poor" folks can pick and choose while paying less than 1/4 of the price of the new ones. I grew up behind 70s and 80s nautiques and I just think that that is what they are supposed to look like. If CC would have a huge ad campaign and get even more folks to pony up over $40,000 for a specialty boat, it would be better for us.
As far as classic design goes, if the specialty boat market wanted classic looks, they would have already bought up all of the old 2001s for wakeboarding. Though that is happening, its happening slowly (until these kids are on their own and don't have daddy shelling out the $ for the fancy ones). CC has a winner with the new wake boats, and we are all happy with old ones. Nothing is wrong with that. Maybe if we wait another 15 years, we'll see the "retro" boats, much like has been done with the PT Cruiser car and "new" thunderbird. Then, by that time we'll all be old geezers (those of that are not, already) and will hopefully be cruising in a "retro" new nautique that costs 25% less than the specialty boat of the day. Hopefully, it will look better than the above mentioned cars, though. |
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dchris17
Gold Member Joined: May-28-2005 Location: Weatherford, TX Status: Offline Points: 573 |
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Alalor has called me on the carpet and I have to admit to having no direct experience with Centurion quality. Therefore, I would like to recant my comments and confess to slander. Gosh! What a frickin' idiot (me, not Alalor). It's easy to make comments without thinking twice about them, until someone who actually knows chimes in.
I think I have simply become a CC snob. I worked hard to get mine, as many of you know, and I love it. I think I might be just a little too proud of it though, if I am beginning to assume that boats that aren't CC are low quality. Thanks Alalor! |
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coreytread
Senior Member Joined: October-05-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 184 |
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I know of two guys on my lake with newer centurions 02 and up. One stays in the shop and the other is always on the water but he also has put in a tranny under 400 hours. Ive got a buddy with a xstar fully loaded every option availible, nobody will get in it because it breaks down everytime we go out in it. We sat one night for two hours waiting for a tow and what pulled us in at one in the morning a late 70's era SN kinda funny a 30 year older 5k boat pulling in a 55k 2 year old boat. The more bells and whistles the less craftmanship on the actual structure. It will be interesting to see how many 60k ski boats made today will be seen in 25 - 30 years.
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alalor1
Newbie Joined: August-07-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 34 |
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Well, I have to say, my 87 centurion has been great. It has the same engine and transmission that most boats had in those days. A 351W by PCM, and a Velvet-Drive 71C. So, I am not eager to compare boat quality just by engine mishaps, because it tends to be just luck, since they all had the same. Now, as soon as we get away from the engine and transmission, it is there where all the boats begin to be different. I was just very unluky with my 85 malibu, it broke down all the time, but it had the same engine as my CCs and the Centurion and the Supra (all reliable), so I can't say Malibus are bad just based on that. Everything else on the Malibu was sub-standard quality, so that discouraged me and I will probably never have a Malibu again.
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1st. Law of Economics: For every economist, there's an equal and
opposite economist. 2nd. Law of Economics: They are both wrong I'd rather be sailing ~~~_/) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ |
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dchris17
Gold Member Joined: May-28-2005 Location: Weatherford, TX Status: Offline Points: 573 |
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Well, I suspect the 60k CC's will still be around!
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alalor1
Newbie Joined: August-07-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 34 |
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CC wants to be in the higher end of the market, like most companies. That way they can make the most amount of money out of each boat, like Ford, that makes like $14,000 profit out of each Navigator but only like $140 out of a focus.
CC tried for a while to be in both markets, the built the American Skier for a few years, didn't work out and sold it. Low end of the market is not easy. You need a lot of volume to make up for lower margins. And high volume can mean more warranty claims, more liability, etc. It can also mean lots of exposure (good and bad) and opportunities. But in ski boats, except for Bayliner, nobody seems to thrive in the low end, Moomba's volumes aren't that great. Tige didn't do that well with the switch. It is a wierd, tough market. I think we'll soon see that the cheapest Nautique will have an MSRP of $50K |
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1st. Law of Economics: For every economist, there's an equal and
opposite economist. 2nd. Law of Economics: They are both wrong I'd rather be sailing ~~~_/) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ |
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