1972 SN Promo Project |
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juniorwoody
Gold Member Joined: August-09-2011 Location: Oak Hill, Fl Status: Offline Points: 937 |
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Nice project, been following it. I have been told that more than 10% variation indicates a need for work.
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The value of money spent on new adventure far exceeds the value of money saved for the future
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skutsch
Grand Poobah Joined: June-19-2008 Location: Racine, WI Status: Offline Points: 2874 |
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Love the out takes! Man that camera guy is good!
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Frankenotter
Platinum Member Joined: August-26-2012 Location: Milwaukee Status: Offline Points: 1072 |
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Thanks for the info guys!!!
As normal, Alan ended up being correct. As soon as I rotated the engine about 1/4 turn, oil started flowing like a chocolate fountain. With the system primed, the compression test commenced. So...........the results of the compression test are as follows. 1. 125 2. 125 3. 115 4. 155 5. 150 6. 120 7. 155 8. 155 I have no clue what to make of these numbers. They either seem high, low, or inconsistent. Regardless, I think the next step is to pull the engine and get ready for grinding. Ill get it on an engine stand and we can figure out where to go from there. Ideas?????!!!!!!???? I decided to give the stuck pylon another attempt. Bonus footage what happens when Steve shows up. |
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1999 Ski Nautique 196
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skutsch
Grand Poobah Joined: June-19-2008 Location: Racine, WI Status: Offline Points: 2874 |
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That completely makes sense though - Might get to try that on Wednesday.
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81nautique
Grand Poobah Joined: September-03-2005 Location: Big Rock, Il Status: Offline Points: 5772 |
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Not an expert on this motor by any means but in the manual for my hemi it states that when pre-oiling the engine it may be required to rotate the crankshaft manually until the oil passages on the crank line up with the holes in the crank bearings to get oil up to the rocker shafts. When the engine is running this is a non issue but if the crank is stationary the oil passage may simply be not lined up. Run your pre lube drill and slowly turn the crank until you see oil up top. Replacement bearings have an oil v groove but OEM do not so maybe you're dealing with the same issue.
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lewy2001
Grand Poobah Joined: March-19-2008 Location: NSW Australia Status: Offline Points: 2234 |
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Chris this may help. From this diagram the top end is oiled through rocker shaft on this engine. It states that the second bracket is where the oil supply gallery to the rocker shaft is located.
Maybe worth giving the engine a flush before adding new 30W oil. I would also give it a try with cranking the engine over but obviously not starting so the whole rotating assemblies are moving. Make sure you have a nice healthy cranking battery. |
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If you're going through hell, keep going
89 Ski <a href="http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=5685" ta |
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Hollywood
Moderator Group Joined: February-04-2004 Location: Twin Lakes, WI Status: Offline Points: 13512 |
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I definitely have enough fresh "variety pack" oil you can have too.
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Riley
Grand Poobah Joined: January-19-2004 Location: Portland, ME Status: Offline Points: 7952 |
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We started a Ford this year that hadn't been run for about 7 years. We changed the oil and cranked it over for a few minutes without any spark plugs in it to get the oil circulating before we tried to fire it. On our Interceptors, I've followed instructions in the manual which say to take a wrench and compress each valve to make sure the valves and push rods are not stuck.
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63 Skier
Grand Poobah Joined: October-06-2006 Location: Concord, NH Status: Offline Points: 4239 |
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I'd definitely change the oil. You are trying to oil all engine components before going to further steps to see if the condition is good enough to run as is, or with minor work. So, distributing old murky oil throughout isn't a good plan, do the change and distribute clean fresh oil on all surfaces. If you want to use cheaper oil you can, for this purpose, assuming another oil change is in the plan even if the engine checks out ok.
A few of us have a suspicion that engine might run well and strong without a rebuild, seems worth pursuing even if we end up wrong and costs a wasted oil change. |
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'63 American Skier - '98 Sport Nautique
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21131 |
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Well I know that... Just making sure he does! Would have been better if it was new clean oil but you've confirmed the pump is pumping and oil has been pushed around a bit. I'd pour some in from the top (spread it around) when you change it (light and cheap oil is fine). I've never seen oil get all the way to the rockers when priming... Haven't given it much thought or concern. Id also throw a bit down each cylinder. Then spin it over and see if you've got decent compression. |
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Hollywood
Moderator Group Joined: February-04-2004 Location: Twin Lakes, WI Status: Offline Points: 13512 |
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Could you also take off the valve covers and drizzle oil on the rockers like salad dressing? For some reason this would be my first move.
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JoeinNY
Grand Poobah Joined: October-19-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5695 |
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Hes priming the oil system so he can crank it over without banging things around that haven't seen oil I in years-- jeesh
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21131 |
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No, seriously. I am failing to grasp what the concern is about the lack of oil up at the rockers would be. Reminding us what the goal of priming the system is may help us focus on the real concern? Not advocating for an engine rebuild... I am thinking the opposite. With all of the hull, structure, interior and trailer work in front of him, it would be nice to save some time and money on the engine (at least in the short term). Save the engine rebuild for a 1-winter project sometime after the boat splashes. Then it can be a a primary focus rather than another item on a very long list, competing with other (time, money) resources. |
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Hollywood
Moderator Group Joined: February-04-2004 Location: Twin Lakes, WI Status: Offline Points: 13512 |
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There might not be one. I could loan you my TopSider extractor. I'd say put some light oil in there. Something is better than nothing for now!
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Frankenotter
Platinum Member Joined: August-26-2012 Location: Milwaukee Status: Offline Points: 1072 |
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This all started as a suggestion by some of the members, not to mention any names (Tim) to see the general health of the engine before taking it out of the boat. The goal has been to get the engine oil primed and at least Spin it with the starter to check compression before pulling. I think that will be the next item in the agenda after a light weight oil change. Where is the drain hose on a 340?
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1999 Ski Nautique 196
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67nautique312
Gold Member Joined: June-23-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 883 |
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I think what Timmy is trying to say is pull that thing and rebuild it from top to bottom. or maybe that's what I'm trying to say.....hope everything on the motor is ok...if not let me know and i'll take it off your hands...
Paul, |
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1963 Classic (handed down to my daughter)
67 Riviera 68 barracuda 1971 Ski Nautique Promo 86 Silver Nautique 1995 Ski Nautique |
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skutsch
Grand Poobah Joined: June-19-2008 Location: Racine, WI Status: Offline Points: 2874 |
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Are you going to run the engine on this oil? If not then why not dump the cheapest lightest weight oil you can in (as it will flow better at the extremely cold temperatures you are currently working in). I don't think you are going to have issues protecting your flat tappets if all you plan to do is spin it by hand... |
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Frankenotter
Platinum Member Joined: August-26-2012 Location: Milwaukee Status: Offline Points: 1072 |
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I'm hoping that's a joke. |
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1999 Ski Nautique 196
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21131 |
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Remind us why you're priming the oil system.
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Frankenotter
Platinum Member Joined: August-26-2012 Location: Milwaukee Status: Offline Points: 1072 |
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We spun the pump cumulatively for 30+ min. It DEFINATELY needs to spin clockwise to prime. If you spin it counterclockwise it blows air bubbles, the likes of which sound like a baby demon blowing into a milkshake in the middle of the engine. When we took the oil pressure sender off and spun it clockwise oil came spraying out very quickly. I did not think to move the crankshaft at all and I can give that a try but the oil is very old. I haven't been able to find signs of clogging anywhere else but that doesn't mean it's not happening. I guess I can give it an oil change but do I have to use expensive oil? I'd rather not dump $45 of racing oil into an engine that's going to get dumped anyways. |
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1999 Ski Nautique 196
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21131 |
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Often you'll see pressure build on the gauge well before oil reaches the top of the engine... The sender is down low close to the pump, after all.
Old, thick, cold oil will also move much more slowly than a fresh 30w... Might be worth changing the oil if you really want to see it up at the valve train. I can't imagine it has oiling system issues of things look generally positive under the valve covers though. We're also assuming that you're spinning the pump in the proper direction... |
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63 Skier
Grand Poobah Joined: October-06-2006 Location: Concord, NH Status: Offline Points: 4239 |
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Does your dash oil pressure gauge work? Might be interesting to see if you are building pressure when you spin the pump. Or even better put a mechanical gauge right on the engine to see.
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'63 American Skier - '98 Sport Nautique
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21131 |
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How long did you spin it for? It may take several minutes for oil to reach the top of the engine.
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Frankenotter
Platinum Member Joined: August-26-2012 Location: Milwaukee Status: Offline Points: 1072 |
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I also got a chance to get a dial indicator on the prop shaft. Since the rudder is bent, one prop fin destroyed, and one tracking fin is bent, I have the theory that the boat was dropped at some point in its life. The standard to check the prop shaft "straightness" is to put a dial indicator on the shaft and spin it from the flange. We are looking for a runout less or equal to .003".
Here we can see the deviation is .005 " forward of the strut. Vid 12 |
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1999 Ski Nautique 196
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Frankenotter
Platinum Member Joined: August-26-2012 Location: Milwaukee Status: Offline Points: 1072 |
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Today I got some time with the boat and attempted the oil priming technique that Zach mentioned on page 3 of this post.
"To remove the Dizzy drive gear use a big screwdriver. I think you need to rotate it Counter Clockwise if memory serves me and it will come up out of the cam gear. It is sort of a PITA to get out without the intake off so pick up a 90 degree pick tool that is long enough to get under the gear to help you lift it out." Vid 9 Now for the $10,000 question, why is the oil not making it up to the rocker arms? 1. Oil clog? 2. Oil pump broken? 3. Oil quantity too low? (I don't think this is the case since the dipstick is at a good level and oil came out of the sender like a geiser). 4. The drill is not reaching a speed high enough to get oil to the rockers. (see vid 11) Vid 10 This is the primer shaft spinning the oil pump for speed reference. Vid 11 |
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1999 Ski Nautique 196
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67nautique312
Gold Member Joined: June-23-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 883 |
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Nice project!! would love to have an Orange Promo someday!! keep the vid's coming!
Paul, |
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1963 Classic (handed down to my daughter)
67 Riviera 68 barracuda 1971 Ski Nautique Promo 86 Silver Nautique 1995 Ski Nautique |
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Frankenotter
Platinum Member Joined: August-26-2012 Location: Milwaukee Status: Offline Points: 1072 |
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I don't know what's wrong with you guys, tryin to save me money? Ha ha. OK I'll try to get the oil primed this week |
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1999 Ski Nautique 196
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Frankenotter
Platinum Member Joined: August-26-2012 Location: Milwaukee Status: Offline Points: 1072 |
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1. Ok I put the carb on a tray and blasted it with Kroil on Friday. I'll get back to it sometime next week at try to get it moving. 2.i knew I was going to get called out on the pushrod/lifter jumble. Lol. I realized that I said it in the video and forgot to make an amendment. I see what you're saying Tim, my concern is that I don't think I have the components to get it running right now. The sides of the heads where the manifolds bolt on are very rusty and pitted. So is the area around the valve cover. I'm pretty sure the heads need to go to a machine shop regardless. So are you saying just prime the oil and check compression or try to get it started? 3. The hose makes sense and I guess I'll hang onto it for now. 4. I did give the bolt several good sacks with the hammer with no luck. I soaked it in oil before I left on Friday so I'll get at it again this week and try the breaker bar method if I can get it out. 5. Yea I noticed the pylon and the clearance bar as well. Interesting. A 73 promo? |
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1999 Ski Nautique 196
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63 Skier
Grand Poobah Joined: October-06-2006 Location: Concord, NH Status: Offline Points: 4239 |
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I had the same reaction. I think there's sometimes a tendency to assume an engine is bad, needs rebuild, just because it hasn't run in a long time. Short of being left out in the rain for years or frozen solid an engine is a closed machine bathed in oil. Yes, the oil runs off with time, and a bit of rust comes along with condensation from hot/cold weather cycles, but I've seen some pretty rusty looking heaps get cleaned up and run smooth and well with no internal work done. The key is these steps you are taking to find out what is good and what isn't, prime it to get the internals well oiled before putting stress on them. Then a compression test will tell more of the story, but won't surprise me if you run this engine as is. I know many here rebuild their own carbs, I've chosen not to, have had great luck using a carb rebuilder. It's expensive, but much less than buying a new carb. Just a thought. |
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'63 American Skier - '98 Sport Nautique
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bkhallpass
Grand Poobah Joined: March-29-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4723 |
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Ha. I don't know much about these things, and Tim knocked out 5 or 6 things that I actually do know in one post. BKH
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Livin' the Dream
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