Where to start with this engine rebuild? |
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gun-driver
Grand Poobah Joined: July-18-2008 Location: Pittsburgh, Pa Status: Offline Points: 4112 |
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Run the compression test and do a leak down before you hang it up or drop big ging.
If your not going after lots more ponies I don't feel roller is worth the money. |
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Dreaming
Platinum Member Joined: May-21-2010 Location: Tacoma, WA Status: Offline Points: 1870 |
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Unfortuanely, the boat has a bad "shake" vibration under load. I am pretty sure the two bad cylinders are the cause of this shake 4 and 8 being sequential in the firing order. it's bad enough that the boat doesn't run well under load. I am down until I get this repaired.
I guess I need to do a little bit more reading about roller engines. does this change my cam selection? |
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21131 |
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How poorly does the engine run now?
I would keep running what you have, and pick up a roller junkyard block and rebuild that short block in parallel. Refurb the gt40 heads with springs for the roller cam when you finally do the swap, that would minimize the downtime. |
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Dreaming
Platinum Member Joined: May-21-2010 Location: Tacoma, WA Status: Offline Points: 1870 |
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So here we are, 3 years after I purchased my boat, LOTS has happened in my life to keep this boat on the back burner this long, but I have dug in again with the goal to get this thing on the water this year. With the results of the shake down cruise, I have come to the realization that an overhaul/reman is really the only way to correct the issues that we are having. My wife has given her OK on spending the cash, so that is not going to be an obstacle in this case, but cost is going to play in here. long term reliability is really what I want.
Since we have come to this spot, I feel like I have 3 options, and am curious as to the perks of each one from someone else's point of view? - Reman longblock (summit racing ~ $1800) - I see this as the most sure fire way to the water, but probably sacrifices build quality and horsepower, especially since these motors come with standard heads, not the GT-40's. Cam grind is also going to be an unknown. - Teardown and rebuild my current block (local machine shop ~1500 plus parts) - I see this as the largest demand on my time, (which is really limited right now) but will have a known condition, self selected components, (and for Pete keeping it original-ish) - also, machine shop has an 8 week backlog, so this option gets us set up for next season. - Truck motor from a junk yard (~$500) - this is the lowest initial cost option, but is a complete unknown in my opinion. it would, however, get my family on the water this year. Also, aren't marine engines built with greater clearances? (might not be an issue on a motor with 100K) |
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Dreaming
Platinum Member Joined: May-21-2010 Location: Tacoma, WA Status: Offline Points: 1870 |
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To the Top :) I need to run the compression numbers again, now that I have the ability to warm up the engine for a test. I am wondering if the lack of compression on the back 2 cyls is causing my 1800 RPM vibration.... its a strong vibration, which made me think that I had a bad cylinder. I forgot that I had gone through some of the testing before, but found this old thread.... I am hoping I don't have to rebuild, but I may have to with the current situation.
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Dreaming
Platinum Member Joined: May-21-2010 Location: Tacoma, WA Status: Offline Points: 1870 |
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I think they are cosmetic, but since my boat has the pro boss motor with gt-40 heads, it may be an ad on that came with this specific motor combination ? Not to sure
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Fly100
Senior Member Joined: September-30-2009 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 126 |
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I have those valve covers on my 196! Are they just cosmetic or indicate some engine difference?
FLY |
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Dreaming
Platinum Member Joined: May-21-2010 Location: Tacoma, WA Status: Offline Points: 1870 |
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Yes,
the starter rolling around in the bow worked great good to hear on the water flow test... water did come out the exhaust when the engine fired, but not much while the hose was on, engine not cranking. I'm thinking I'll post in the parts wanted section for a few items that I know I need now.... exhaust manifold high pressure fuel pump, or carb/mechanical fuel pump... now comes the hard part... Patience |
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KRoundy
Platinum Member Joined: August-23-2010 Location: Lake Stevens Status: Offline Points: 1702 |
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Wow! So amazing that it fires over. Congrats.
It sounds like you need somebody with a '94 to scan the electrical diagram for you. Somebody must have one. A '93 did not have electrical fuel pumps (just a mechanical one on the engine). I'm not surprised about your water-flow test. It likely indicates that your impeller is still whole and functional. If the impeller is not spinning that would effectively be a "dam" in the system that would prevent the water from getting to the exhaust. Or are you cranking the engine and observing no water flow? Were you able to turn it with that starter that was rolling around up in the bow? I agree that the exhaust riser sounds like it is toast. |
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Previous: 1993 Electric Blue/Charcoal Ski Nautique
Current: 2016 Ski Nautique 200 Open Bow |
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Dreaming
Platinum Member Joined: May-21-2010 Location: Tacoma, WA Status: Offline Points: 1870 |
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ok so here's the update
- I spent some time on the TBI this morning. The secondary's are loose. some disassembly, a can of brake cleaner, and a scrub brush have it looking presentable, although a bunch of the rust came from the throttle plates, so they look pretty rough, but I think functional. - installed the TBI, and had an ignition key made (boat came without one as it was a mechanic's lien sale) not sure how they planned on working on it without keys - had to trouble shoot the electrical system a bit... the battery side of the key goes straight to ground... problem fixed temporarily by removing the grounded lead, and adding a jumper from the hot on the battery to the battery terminal of the key, and jumping the ignition breaker which is evidently bad. - I put a little gas down the TBI, and low and behold it fired. - while I was firing the engine (gas down the throat) I did not get an indication of fuel pressure... Low pressure pump runs when 12v is applied, but I never got any fuel pressure at the TBI. any help on finding and testing the High pressure pump? - I put picked up a brass freeze plug kit, and installed the plugs in the open holes, dragged the boat out, and put the hose on it. After letting the hose run for a bit, it appears the hose backs up pressure, instead of just flowing out the exhaust. I clamped the garden hose to the outlet hose of the strainer... is this normal? - port side exhaust riser is leaking badly from the connection to the head in two places... I am assuming it's cracked but will need to pull it off to find out. I looked in the 93 manual to find how to jumper the low pump, but found no indication of how to locate or test the high pressure side. Last, since it appears that I need to fix the electrical system, does anyone have a good wiring diagram? the 94 manual doesn't show up in the reference section, and the 95 doesn't have good details on the protec system. thanks for everyone's comments and suggestions so far! |
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KRoundy
Platinum Member Joined: August-23-2010 Location: Lake Stevens Status: Offline Points: 1702 |
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Woot! Nice link! |
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Previous: 1993 Electric Blue/Charcoal Ski Nautique
Current: 2016 Ski Nautique 200 Open Bow |
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Dreaming
Platinum Member Joined: May-21-2010 Location: Tacoma, WA Status: Offline Points: 1870 |
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My 82 sold on Sunday , so I was able to get the 94 into the garage, but we promptly left for a couple of days at the coast. I haven't had a Chance to do anything else except to put the boat away. I like the idea of having a leak down tester, so I may just pick one up... Gary, I am short a few components to build my own, but not many I'll report back in a few days once i'vemade progress |
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SNobsessed
Grand Poobah Joined: October-21-2007 Location: IA Status: Offline Points: 7102 |
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Just be careful that you don't leave the breaker bar on the C/S when you turn on the air pressure. Makes a loud bang, could have been painful . . .
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“Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.”
Ben Franklin |
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Gary S
Grand Poobah Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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Hey Kris maybe if your like me you might just have enough laying around to build a leakdown tester
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21131 |
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I disagree. A leak down test will tell you exactly where to focus your attention. Perhaps it is just rusted exhaust valves/seats in the rear cylinders- which would be solved by a $300 valve job instead of a full rebuild. Don't be a parts changer, do some troubleshooting! ;) |
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89Martinique
Senior Member Joined: September-05-2011 Location: Binghamton Status: Offline Points: 457 |
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Again,
If you ditch the Protec, I would be happy to take it off you hands I would like to have a spare to tear apart and try to fix to keep... |
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Current Boats:
1992 Supra Comp-TS6M PCM 351w HO Pro Boss Pro-Tec Ignition - Full Composite (no wood stingers!) 1989 (3rd Gen) Correct Craft Martinique B/R PCM 351w Power Plus 1984 E-Scow Keuka Lake, |
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Dreaming
Platinum Member Joined: May-21-2010 Location: Tacoma, WA Status: Offline Points: 1870 |
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Pete,
Thanks for your input. I assumed when I bought the boat that a rebuild was going to be necessary. This pretty much was just confirmation that I paid a good price for what I got, not an incredible price for something better than expected. where to go from here... I could pull it apart, hoping nothing in the water jacket is cracked, machine the block and put pistons and bearings and rings in, and throw on some rebuilt heads and call it a day, or I can search out a roller block and rebuild that... I think either way I'll be looking to put a Holley 4160 carb on it, with a distributor either electronic, or points. - Kevin, yep, you're right I need to make another diary entry, but have been spending all the time I can in the boat... even if it is in the driveway I've had two lookers on the 82, and lots of emails, but so far, no takers. Projects are a hard sell to some I guess |
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KRoundy
Platinum Member Joined: August-23-2010 Location: Lake Stevens Status: Offline Points: 1702 |
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Hey Kris - you need to update your avatar.
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Previous: 1993 Electric Blue/Charcoal Ski Nautique
Current: 2016 Ski Nautique 200 Open Bow |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Kris,
I don't feel a leak down teat is going to tell you any further info since the compression test on 4 and 8 turned up very bad. I would say those rear cylinders got some water in them. Check out the manifolds. I will also say it's time to pull the engine apart and rebuild just because of the 4 and 8 results you got. You may get away with keeping it running if you can get it started. The ATF may break loose the stuck rings but, then you still need to deal with the TBI! |
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KRoundy
Platinum Member Joined: August-23-2010 Location: Lake Stevens Status: Offline Points: 1702 |
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First off - woo hoo!!!!
Wow, that is some serious variation on the compression numbers. You put oil in the pan as you mentioned, right? Did you see the pressure come up on the oil gauge as you were spinning it? I'm not an engine expert, but with the data you have right now a rebuild seems like a logical assumption. I could ask a few car guys around if they know of a good shop where you could get a solid 2nd opinion. Let me know. |
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Previous: 1993 Electric Blue/Charcoal Ski Nautique
Current: 2016 Ski Nautique 200 Open Bow |
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Dreaming
Platinum Member Joined: May-21-2010 Location: Tacoma, WA Status: Offline Points: 1870 |
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Compression numbers....
1: 160 psi 2: 172 psi 3: 100 psi 4: 85 psi 5: 120 psi 6: 120 Psi 7: 130 Psi 8: 80 psi So it is evident to me that the rear two cyls are leaking somewhere... probably rings. Cyls 1&2 have the best numbers, and while cranking must have loosen the rings from the lands a bit as they "clicked" and I saw the pressure rise significantly. None of the others "Clicked" and by the time I got to cyl 8, the battery was feeling pretty tired. I don't have a leak down tester, but don't mind picking one up if it is necessary to go further. The TBI freed up a bit over night, but not enough for me to feel that airflow would not be restricted, so the TBI was removed. There is a good thick layer of rusty crap in the intake at the bottom of the inlet... will this crap run out if I get it started? or should I take it all apart? My opinion of the compression numbers is that they are too low and a rebuild is going to be necessary. am I correct? or are there other tests I should run? |
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Dreaming
Platinum Member Joined: May-21-2010 Location: Tacoma, WA Status: Offline Points: 1870 |
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she spins!!!! Pretty excited that ATF and some additional pressure on the crank pulley bolt made it turn. The starter was out so I tested it in the bench tonight and it seems to spin fine too. I filled the TBI with marvel mystery oil tonight and will let that soak a day or two. Starter will get installed tomorrow and we'll see if there,s compression. Just a side suggestion/ question ... Has anyone used an air fitting and 100. Psi to assist in freeing things up? That was my backup plan this evening. I was thinking that the thing to watch out for would be the back swing on the breaker bar once the engine began to free up.
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89Martinique
Senior Member Joined: September-05-2011 Location: Binghamton Status: Offline Points: 457 |
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If you ditch the Protec, I would be happy to take it off you hands
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Current Boats:
1992 Supra Comp-TS6M PCM 351w HO Pro Boss Pro-Tec Ignition - Full Composite (no wood stingers!) 1989 (3rd Gen) Correct Craft Martinique B/R PCM 351w Power Plus 1984 E-Scow Keuka Lake, |
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backfoot100
Platinum Member Joined: January-03-2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1897 |
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Seems I always have to preface this with the usual "I'm not sure about a Ford" but my Chevy has an inspection plate on the bell housing you can remove and easily use a prybar on the flywheel. Then you don't have to worry about snapping a bolt.
I would first let it sit for a few days before you try moving it either way. If you just put the ATF/acetone mix in the cylinders last night, give it chance to work for you. |
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When people run down to the lake to see what's making that noise, you've succeeded.
Eddie |
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GottaSki
Grand Poobah Joined: April-21-2005 Location: NE CT Status: Offline Points: 3335 |
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Consider tightening the balancer bolt to spec, removing the pully, insert some longer bolts to the pully holes, and nudge the engine with a bar acting on the bolts.
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"There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing."
River Rat to Mole |
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Dreaming
Platinum Member Joined: May-21-2010 Location: Tacoma, WA Status: Offline Points: 1870 |
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I did turn both ways, just didn't want to break the bolt HOw much can I wrench on that puppy? I don't mind putting some pressure on it, I was just heeding the advice to not overdo the wrenching from this end of the motor.
TRBenj, it's stuck... 2.5' breaker bar, no spark plugs, and the starter is out... it aint budging. |
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JoeinNY
Grand Poobah Joined: October-19-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5695 |
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Turn it the other way!
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21131 |
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Pull the spark plugs out and put a breaker bar on the crank and try turning the engine over forwards (which will tighten the crank bolt) before you do anything else. It might be frozen, but I dont think you know that definitively yet.
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Dreaming
Platinum Member Joined: May-21-2010 Location: Tacoma, WA Status: Offline Points: 1870 |
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I used a 1/2 drive ratchet on the motor when I looked at the boat. I did not enough horse power to turn the motor over with a short handle (8"), so I assumed it was frozen. I used a breaker bar and socket last night and did a great job of loosening the harmonic balancer bolt , but was still unable to turn the crank. I will have to pull the trans and access the flywheel I think. |
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21131 |
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Just noticed this... so now Im curious- how did you confirm that the engine was stuck if you have yet to put a breaker bar on the crank? |
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