Where to start with this engine rebuild?
Printed From: CorrectCraftFan.com
Category: Repairs and Maintenance
Forum Name: Engine Repair
Forum Discription: Engine problems and solutions
URL: http://www.CorrectCraftFan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31100
Printed Date: May-17-2024 at 8:07am
Topic: Where to start with this engine rebuild?
Posted By: Dreaming
Subject: Where to start with this engine rebuild?
Date Posted: August-05-2013 at 5:33pm
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So with last weeks boat purchase, I have a new challenge; Determining whether this engine is an anchor, or a starting point. It's ugly. - 5.8 PCM pro boss with Protec ign, and Protech TBI - I have no Idea if anything is functional - Crankshaft will not spin with a breaker bar - Freeze plugs (casting plugs) are popped - 5 of them around the perimeter, and one in the front of the head - hobbs shows 355 hours - TBI ports have rust in them... the cover must have been up for some time with the flame arrestor off. My objective is pretty much a straight up rebuild or swap, I am not looking to make extra power, or go fast, I want a reliable boat, with minimal hassles once I finish the project. I spent my stringer rebuild budget on this boat, so It's time to research while I work to sell off the 82 to replenish the cash supply - Should I ditch the protec TBI? with the pictures, it appears to have gotten wet. Is carburation a direct swap? - should I free the crankshaft/pistons before removing the engine? - is this an exercise in futility, and I should just get a block from a junk yard and start fresh? I'd love to hear opinions.    
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Replies:
Posted By: TX Foilhead
Date Posted: August-05-2013 at 5:55pm
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I want those valve covers if you toss the motor. I wouldn't count on the ProTec working. I lould figure a replacement in the budget and then try it once you have a working motor before you order a carb an a dizzy. |
Posted By: Bri892001
Date Posted: August-05-2013 at 6:28pm
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You could always toss in this puppy: http://www.skidim.com/prodinfo.asp?number=1620" rel="nofollow - PCM Carb'd Chevy 300HP only 7.5 Grand I'd love to see the results, but I'm guessing it would blow up your budget. |
Posted By: Dreaming
Date Posted: August-05-2013 at 7:49pm
 I like the valve covers too :) they are cool. There is a set on Ebay currently if you want a set. Good point on not expecting anything to work. I went in with that mentality, figuring that I had a very nice hull if I had to start over. |
TX Foilhead wrote:Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: August-05-2013 at 9:25pm
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I think if you find out your motor is toast having a lefty gives you alot of options. You could either grab an engine at a junk yard for a solid core and have the machine work done and assemble yourself or buy a short or long block and go from there. 94-97 F250's have roller 351s in them from what I have read on http://forums.corral.net/forums/5-0-5-8-engine-tech/" rel="nofollow - this Mustang forum. Add a nice carb and a DUI and youd be all set ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: Dreaming
Date Posted: August-06-2013 at 12:30am
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thanks Gary, that's exactly the kind of details I think will be very helpful. Is there a way to tell if an engine is a roller? I've rebuilt a few engines, and had great success, but never a ford and never a V-8. Are there nuances that I should look for in a block? or are they all pretty similar? Do rollers produce the same power in the same RPM range as flat tappets? Do I need to be cautious of that? or is that a function of the cam grind, where if I remove my existing cam, I can just put it in and run it? Book suggestions would probably be good here too. that's definitely reading I don't mind doing 
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Posted By: Dreaming
Date Posted: August-06-2013 at 12:31am
Brian, I think that motor would end up being more than twice what I paid for the boat  
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Posted By: TX Foilhead
Date Posted: August-06-2013 at 12:48am
| It's not a roller if it's stock, engine tag should tell you which way it turns. The cam and head upgrade would be in order since they should'nt cost you any extra if the motor is junk. You Have GT40 heads there so if they're good then just add the cam. If its RR then you can't make it a roller cam because there aren't any roller cams, if it's standard then you'll have plenty of choices. |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: August-06-2013 at 1:31am
It is my understanding that the blocks themselfs are the same. Just because it's a roller makes no difference,it's the camshaft grind itself that determins the rpm range. If your original cam is good you could reuse it,but since it's a flat tappet it might be worth your time to change to a roller especially if you can find a truck block then you don't have to worry about oil with the zinc additive. From what I have found out by looking on Ford forums is "If it's an F4TE then it is a roller block",but where that is located on the block I don't know.Then I also read that it can have a flat tappet also but it still is a roller block,which means that it has mountings for the "spider" that keeps the lifter located and the lifter bores are taller. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: gun-driver
Date Posted: August-06-2013 at 12:12pm
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[/QUOTE] "If it's an F4TE then it is a roller block",but where that is located on the block I don't know.Then I also read that it can have a flat tappet also but it still is a roller block,which means that it has mountings for the "spider" that keeps the lifter located and the lifter bores are taller.[/QUOTE] Yep what he said. You can find the block number above the starter. If you decide to stay stock I have a cam and lifters out of my '95 GT-40 EFI I would let go cheap. |
Posted By: KRoundy
Date Posted: August-06-2013 at 12:45pm
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Kris, You're getting some good info here. As you wait for the cash flows to start moving in the right direction again, I would suggest that you start to curiously investigate that block. It will be interesting to see what parts you can re-use and what ones are toast. I'm amazed that all those freeze plugs popped. That's really serious boat abuse. Why switch from TBI to a carb? ------------- Previous: 1993 Electric Blue/Charcoal Ski Nautique Current: 2016 Ski Nautique 200 Open Bow |
Posted By: phatsat67
Date Posted: August-06-2013 at 1:27pm
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TBI relies on the Pro-Tec to work properly. Going with a carb and regular distributor set up will ensure long life and never a lack of replacement parts. ------------- |
Posted By: Dreaming
Date Posted: August-06-2013 at 4:08pm
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Kevin - My Thinking was along the lines of what Zach was suggesting. The protec may be in working order, but I am guessing that I need to budget for replacemnt if nothing else. With the hood haven sat open and everything looking like it has been in the weather a bit, I am wondering if the electronic firing mechanism for the TBI is going to function at all. - While I am waiting, I do think I am going to try unstick the block... Maybe Acetone/ATF,or some other method of getting the stuck rings loose. The casting plugs could have saved it, and if I can get it loosened up, it's worth the $100 to put new casting plugs in get it running and see if the water jacket is cracked. I'd suppose that if the WJ is cracked, I'll see water in the oil pretty quickly. |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: August-06-2013 at 5:32pm
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I would suggest 1)break it free 2)compression test and 3)replace casting plugs if #2 checks out ok... because while its not definitive, its a good first step. Dont force the crank bolt too hard when trying to break it free- use a breaker bar on the flywheel if necessary. If it doesnt come easily after sitting for a while, pull the valve covers and make sure the valves arent frozen- else you might bend a pushrod if you force it. Taking the heads off would be a last resort if you suspect frozen valves and cant get them unstuck. Letting a healthy amount of ATF or ATF/acetone sit in the cylinders for a while is a good idea before re-attempting. ------------- |
Posted By: phatsat67
Date Posted: August-06-2013 at 5:43pm
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If that throttle body is junked I have a pretty nice new one sitting here ;). ------------- |
Posted By: storm34
Date Posted: August-07-2013 at 1:19am
My $.02 I thought the same thing until Tim talked me into a Heads/Cam/Intake rebuild in my 78 Tique a few years back. I obliged since it needed rebuilding anyway. He was right and I caught the bug! Even talked PicturePat into letting me tear down his perfectly running 351 and going the same route. We don't make consistent speed runs but it's sure sounds nice and is convenient having the extra HP. It took me a while to get there (mostly due to my lack of knowledge and experience) but it's very reliable and I didn't spend much more than putting stock parts back. Do some comparisons but I'd venture to guess you're not going to spend a whole lot more with a few upgrades in the right places. http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj532/chrismars515/IMG_3311_zps98dbc242.mp4" rel="nofollow">  ------------- |
Posted By: Dreaming
Date Posted: August-07-2013 at 1:15pm
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Thanks for the .02 Chris I will definitely do some comparisons if this motor doesn't run the way it is. Tim- good call on the compression test. I'll mix up some ATF homebrew tonight and dump into the cyls. I think I may pull the valve covers and spread some in there for good measure also. I am guessing I won't have too much time this weekend to work on the boat, so the homebrew can sit and do its magic for a week before I try the crank again. If I can make this motor run, this boat will have been an incredible find. Just as a safety note, I am guessing that there is a torque that I should not exceed on the harmonic balancer bolt... anyone know what that is? If I need to pull the motor and trans, I'm happy to do that, but boat 1 is still in the garage, so I'll have to wait. If I can use a breaker bar and socket on the harmonic balancer bolt a bit, I may be able to make a run at it before boat 1 is sold. |
Posted By: Dreaming
Date Posted: August-08-2013 at 1:05am
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Pulled The plugs and added ATF to the cyls tonight.... Back plug on the observer side is rusty, the rest looked good. I pulled the observer side valve cover and put some ATF in there also... Top side looked excellent. clean and clear, no evidence of rust at all. I'm guessing rings are the stuck part. I'll have to fill the crank case with oil too, appears the oil' been drained at some point. |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: August-08-2013 at 10:17am
Just noticed this... so now Im curious- how did you confirm that the engine was stuck if you have yet to put a breaker bar on the crank? ------------- |
Posted By: Dreaming
Date Posted: August-08-2013 at 12:48pm
I used a 1/2 drive ratchet on the motor when I looked at the boat. I did not enough horse power to turn the motor over with a short handle (8"), so I assumed it was frozen. I used a breaker bar and socket last night and did a great job of loosening the harmonic balancer bolt , but was still unable to turn the crank. I will have to pull the trans and access the flywheel I think.
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Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: August-08-2013 at 12:57pm
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Pull the spark plugs out and put a breaker bar on the crank and try turning the engine over forwards (which will tighten the crank bolt) before you do anything else. It might be frozen, but I dont think you know that definitively yet. ------------- |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: August-08-2013 at 12:58pm
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Turn it the other way! ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: Dreaming
Date Posted: August-08-2013 at 1:06pm
I did turn both ways, just didn't want to break the bolt  HOw much can I wrench on that puppy? I don't mind putting some pressure on it, I was just heeding the advice to not overdo the wrenching from this end of the motor. TRBenj, it's stuck... 2.5' breaker bar, no spark plugs, and the starter is out... it aint budging. |
Posted By: GottaSki
Date Posted: August-08-2013 at 1:16pm
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Consider tightening the balancer bolt to spec, removing the pully, insert some longer bolts to the pully holes, and nudge the engine with a bar acting on the bolts. ------------- "There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing." River Rat to Mole |
Posted By: backfoot100
Date Posted: August-08-2013 at 5:42pm
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Seems I always have to preface this with the usual "I'm not sure about a Ford" but my Chevy has an inspection plate on the bell housing you can remove and easily use a prybar on the flywheel. Then you don't have to worry about snapping a bolt. I would first let it sit for a few days before you try moving it either way. If you just put the ATF/acetone mix in the cylinders last night, give it chance to work for you. ------------- When people run down to the lake to see what's making that noise, you've succeeded. Eddie |
Posted By: 89Martinique
Date Posted: August-08-2013 at 7:24pm
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If you ditch the Protec, I would be happy to take it off you hands ------------- Current Boats: 1992 Supra Comp-TS6M PCM 351w HO Pro Boss Pro-Tec Ignition - Full Composite (no wood stingers!) 1989 (3rd Gen) Correct Craft Martinique B/R PCM 351w Power Plus 1984 E-Scow Keuka Lake, |
Posted By: Dreaming
Date Posted: August-10-2013 at 2:20am
she spins!!!!  Pretty excited that ATF and some additional pressure on the crank pulley bolt made it turn. The starter was out so I tested it in the bench tonight and it seems to spin fine too. I filled the TBI with marvel mystery oil tonight and will let that soak a day or two. Starter will get installed tomorrow and we'll see if there,s compression. Just a side suggestion/ question ... Has anyone used an air fitting and 100. Psi to assist in freeing things up? That was my backup plan this evening. I was thinking that the thing to watch out for would be the back swing on the breaker bar once the engine began to free up.
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Posted By: Dreaming
Date Posted: August-10-2013 at 4:54pm
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Compression numbers.... 1: 160 psi 2: 172 psi 3: 100 psi 4: 85 psi 5: 120 psi 6: 120 Psi 7: 130 Psi 8: 80 psi So it is evident to me that the rear two cyls are leaking somewhere... probably rings. Cyls 1&2 have the best numbers, and while cranking must have loosen the rings from the lands a bit as they "clicked" and I saw the pressure rise significantly. None of the others "Clicked" and by the time I got to cyl 8, the battery was feeling pretty tired. I don't have a leak down tester, but don't mind picking one up if it is necessary to go further. The TBI freed up a bit over night, but not enough for me to feel that airflow would not be restricted, so the TBI was removed. There is a good thick layer of rusty crap in the intake at the bottom of the inlet... will this crap run out if I get it started? or should I take it all apart? My opinion of the compression numbers is that they are too low and a rebuild is going to be necessary. am I correct? or are there other tests I should run? |
Posted By: KRoundy
Date Posted: August-10-2013 at 5:27pm
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First off - woo hoo!!!! Wow, that is some serious variation on the compression numbers. You put oil in the pan as you mentioned, right? Did you see the pressure come up on the oil gauge as you were spinning it? I'm not an engine expert, but with the data you have right now a rebuild seems like a logical assumption. I could ask a few car guys around if they know of a good shop where you could get a solid 2nd opinion. Let me know. ------------- Previous: 1993 Electric Blue/Charcoal Ski Nautique Current: 2016 Ski Nautique 200 Open Bow |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: August-10-2013 at 6:44pm
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Kris, I don't feel a leak down teat is going to tell you any further info since the compression test on 4 and 8 turned up very bad. I would say those rear cylinders got some water in them. Check out the manifolds. I will also say it's time to pull the engine apart and rebuild just because of the 4 and 8 results you got. You may get away with keeping it running if you can get it started. The ATF may break loose the stuck rings but, then you still need to deal with the TBI!  ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: KRoundy
Date Posted: August-10-2013 at 7:05pm
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Hey Kris - you need to update your avatar. ------------- Previous: 1993 Electric Blue/Charcoal Ski Nautique Current: 2016 Ski Nautique 200 Open Bow |
Posted By: Dreaming
Date Posted: August-11-2013 at 12:16am
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Pete, Thanks for your input. I assumed when I bought the boat that a rebuild was going to be necessary. This pretty much was just confirmation that I paid a good price for what I got, not an incredible price for something better than expected. where to go from here... I could pull it apart, hoping nothing in the water jacket is cracked, machine the block and put pistons and bearings and rings in, and throw on some rebuilt heads and call it a day, or I can search out a roller block and rebuild that... I think either way I'll be looking to put a Holley 4160 carb on it, with a distributor either electronic, or points. - Kevin, yep, you're right I need to make another diary entry, but have been spending all the time I can in the boat... even if it is in the driveway I've had two lookers on the 82, and lots of emails, but so far, no takers. Projects are a hard sell to some I guess 
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Posted By: 89Martinique
Date Posted: August-11-2013 at 9:56pm
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Again, If you ditch the Protec, I would be happy to take it off you hands I would like to have a spare to tear apart and try to fix to keep... ------------- Current Boats: 1992 Supra Comp-TS6M PCM 351w HO Pro Boss Pro-Tec Ignition - Full Composite (no wood stingers!) 1989 (3rd Gen) Correct Craft Martinique B/R PCM 351w Power Plus 1984 E-Scow Keuka Lake, |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: August-11-2013 at 11:24pm
I disagree. A leak down test will tell you exactly where to focus your attention. Perhaps it is just rusted exhaust valves/seats in the rear cylinders- which would be solved by a $300 valve job instead of a full rebuild. Don't be a parts changer, do some troubleshooting! ;) ------------- |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: August-11-2013 at 11:59pm
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Hey Kris maybe if your like me you might just have enough laying around to build a http://www.motorcycleproject.com/motorcycle/text/Leakdown.html" rel="nofollow - leakdown tester ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: SNobsessed
Date Posted: August-12-2013 at 10:35am
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Just be careful that you don't leave the breaker bar on the C/S when you turn on the air pressure. Makes a loud bang, could have been painful . . . ------------- “Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.” Ben Franklin |
Posted By: Dreaming
Date Posted: August-13-2013 at 12:51pm
I thought about that. I wondered if there was a way to tell if the chosen cyl was on the up stroke or the down stroke when it stopped. Careful breaker bar management is in order if air pressure is used My 82 sold on Sunday , so I was able to get the 94 into the garage, but we promptly left for a couple of days at the coast. I haven't had a Chance to do anything else except to put the boat away. I like the idea of having a leak down tester, so I may just pick one up... Gary, I am short a few components to build my own, but not many I'll report back in a few days once i'vemade progress |
Posted By: KRoundy
Date Posted: August-14-2013 at 1:40am
Woot! Nice link! ------------- Previous: 1993 Electric Blue/Charcoal Ski Nautique Current: 2016 Ski Nautique 200 Open Bow |
Posted By: Dreaming
Date Posted: August-17-2013 at 1:15am
ok so here's the update  - I spent some time on the TBI this morning. The secondary's are loose. some disassembly, a can of brake cleaner, and a scrub brush have it looking presentable, although a bunch of the rust came from the throttle plates, so they look pretty rough, but I think functional. - installed the TBI, and had an ignition key made (boat came without one as it was a mechanic's lien sale) not sure how they planned on working on it without keys - had to trouble shoot the electrical system a bit... the battery side of the key goes straight to ground... problem fixed temporarily by removing the grounded lead, and adding a jumper from the hot on the battery to the battery terminal of the key, and jumping the ignition breaker which is evidently bad. - I put a little gas down the TBI, and low and behold it fired. - while I was firing the engine (gas down the throat) I did not get an indication of fuel pressure... Low pressure pump runs when 12v is applied, but I never got any fuel pressure at the TBI. any help on finding and testing the High pressure pump? - I put picked up a brass freeze plug kit, and installed the plugs in the open holes, dragged the boat out, and put the hose on it. After letting the hose run for a bit, it appears the hose backs up pressure, instead of just flowing out the exhaust. I clamped the garden hose to the outlet hose of the strainer... is this normal? - port side exhaust riser is leaking badly from the connection to the head in two places... I am assuming it's cracked but will need to pull it off to find out. I looked in the 93 manual to find how to jumper the low pump, but found no indication of how to locate or test the high pressure side. Last, since it appears that I need to fix the electrical system, does anyone have a good wiring diagram? the 94 manual doesn't show up in the reference section, and the 95 doesn't have good details on the protec system. thanks for everyone's comments and suggestions so far! |
Posted By: KRoundy
Date Posted: August-18-2013 at 6:51pm
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Wow! So amazing that it fires over. Congrats. It sounds like you need somebody with a '94 to scan the electrical diagram for you. Somebody must have one. A '93 did not have electrical fuel pumps (just a mechanical one on the engine). I'm not surprised about your water-flow test. It likely indicates that your impeller is still whole and functional. If the impeller is not spinning that would effectively be a "dam" in the system that would prevent the water from getting to the exhaust. Or are you cranking the engine and observing no water flow? Were you able to turn it with that starter that was rolling around up in the bow? I agree that the exhaust riser sounds like it is toast. ------------- Previous: 1993 Electric Blue/Charcoal Ski Nautique Current: 2016 Ski Nautique 200 Open Bow |
Posted By: Dreaming
Date Posted: August-18-2013 at 7:48pm
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Yes, the starter rolling around in the bow worked great good to hear on the water flow test... water did come out the exhaust when the engine fired, but not much while the hose was on, engine not cranking. I'm thinking I'll post in the parts wanted section for a few items that I know I need now.... exhaust manifold high pressure fuel pump, or carb/mechanical fuel pump... now comes the hard part... Patience
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Posted By: Fly100
Date Posted: August-27-2013 at 6:48pm
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I have those valve covers on my 196! Are they just cosmetic or indicate some engine difference? FLY |
Posted By: Dreaming
Date Posted: August-28-2013 at 1:44am
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I think they are cosmetic, but since my boat has the pro boss motor with gt-40 heads, it may be an ad on that came with this specific motor combination ? Not to sure |
Posted By: Dreaming
Date Posted: August-08-2016 at 4:34pm
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To the Top :) I need to run the compression numbers again, now that I have the ability to warm up the engine for a test. I am wondering if the lack of compression on the back 2 cyls is causing my 1800 RPM vibration.... its a strong vibration, which made me think that I had a bad cylinder. I forgot that I had gone through some of the testing before, but found this old thread.... I am hoping I don't have to rebuild, but I may have to with the current situation. |
Posted By: Dreaming
Date Posted: August-09-2016 at 2:08pm
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So here we are, 3 years after I purchased my boat, LOTS has happened in my life to keep this boat on the back burner this long, but I have dug in again with the goal to get this thing on the water this year. With the results of the shake down cruise, I have come to the realization that an overhaul/reman is really the only way to correct the issues that we are having. My wife has given her OK on spending the cash, so that is not going to be an obstacle in this case, but cost is going to play in here. long term reliability is really what I want. Since we have come to this spot, I feel like I have 3 options, and am curious as to the perks of each one from someone else's point of view? - Reman longblock (summit racing ~ $1800) - I see this as the most sure fire way to the water, but probably sacrifices build quality and horsepower, especially since these motors come with standard heads, not the GT-40's. Cam grind is also going to be an unknown. - Teardown and rebuild my current block (local machine shop ~1500 plus parts) - I see this as the largest demand on my time, (which is really limited right now) but will have a known condition, self selected components, (and for Pete keeping it original-ish) - also, machine shop has an 8 week backlog, so this option gets us set up for next season. - Truck motor from a junk yard (~$500) - this is the lowest initial cost option, but is a complete unknown in my opinion. it would, however, get my family on the water this year. Also, aren't marine engines built with greater clearances? (might not be an issue on a motor with 100K) |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: August-09-2016 at 3:07pm
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How poorly does the engine run now? I would keep running what you have, and pick up a roller junkyard block and rebuild that short block in parallel. Refurb the gt40 heads with springs for the roller cam when you finally do the swap, that would minimize the downtime. |
Posted By: Dreaming
Date Posted: August-09-2016 at 3:20pm
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Unfortuanely, the boat has a bad "shake" vibration under load. I am pretty sure the two bad cylinders are the cause of this shake 4 and 8 being sequential in the firing order. it's bad enough that the boat doesn't run well under load. I am down until I get this repaired. I guess I need to do a little bit more reading about roller engines. does this change my cam selection? |
Posted By: gun-driver
Date Posted: August-09-2016 at 3:55pm
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Run the compression test and do a leak down before you hang it up or drop big ging. If your not going after lots more ponies I don't feel roller is worth the money. |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: August-09-2016 at 4:02pm
| I would roller all day long every day on a lefty regardless of whether big performance upgrades are desired... RH is a bit more spendy and difficult to source. Reliability is a huge plus and you'll get some performance to boot even with a conservative grind. |
Posted By: Dreaming
Date Posted: August-09-2016 at 4:10pm
Here are my compression numbers,,, I have a leak down tester and will run that too, but I don't suspect much change based on my on water performance. |
Posted By: GottaSki
Date Posted: August-09-2016 at 4:20pm
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Maybe you discern if its valves or rings. ------------- "There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing." River Rat to Mole |
Posted By: gun-driver
Date Posted: August-09-2016 at 4:30pm
Bingo could be the difference between $$$$ and $ |
Posted By: Dreaming
Date Posted: August-09-2016 at 4:34pm
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Agreed, pretty sure it's rings though. I'll plug in the leak down as soon as I can and confirm before going any further, but 98% on the rings part. This motor saw some water before I got it, and it took some work to loosen up the rotating assembly. |
Posted By: gun-driver
Date Posted: August-09-2016 at 4:36pm
This is true but your going to add probably close the a G note to do it depending on availability of a used block or not. If you have to have the block milled for the spiders and such you'll be at that G note a lot quicker. |
Posted By: Dreaming
Date Posted: August-09-2016 at 5:10pm
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is something like this a "bolt in type deal" seems like this might be a good answer if a roller is the way to go.... Can I run the stock cam/heads set up on a roller motor from an F-250? From Craigslist: '96 Ford Pickup 351Windsor engine (5.8 liter) 'roller cam' motor.....with 91k (actual miles!).......super clean......and it runs great!......for $600 exchange....$100 core. |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: August-09-2016 at 5:15pm
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You can, but there is no benefit of having a roller block if you don't plan to run a roller cam. I would not expect a roller conversion to be $1k if you can source a reasonably priced block... Factory lifters and a LH roller cam are not huge $$. Not significantly more expensive than new flat tappet stuff anyways. Going tie-bar lifters would be a little more expensive. Edit... Did you mean stock heads/cam/lifters from your original (flat tappet) engine or the hardware from the running F250? I assumed you meant the former. You can run the truck roller cam if you want. It likely less than ideal but it'll work. Heads won't be gt40's though. Could be a decent short term option, then refurb your (Pcm) heads and do a cam swap this winter. |
Posted By: Dreaming
Date Posted: August-09-2016 at 5:45pm
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yes, run the truck motor as is, with my carb/DUI distributor, and then have my heads rebuilt, and add a cam down the line. Getting a short term option with a long term benefit would be a bonus for me. |
Posted By: gun-driver
Date Posted: August-09-2016 at 6:26pm
If you go tie bars 4-500 if you find a roller block that will still put you in the same price range as the tie bars, 2-400 for the block 2-300 rollers, bump stick 400 the block work and/or roller cams will eat up the last couple hundred I found this one for $200 still have the rollers and truck cam your welcome to for the price of the ride, used the block and spiders ***************canned the rest http://s256.photobucket.com/user/gun-driver/media/408%20project/DSC01277_zpszncrp1jy.jpg.html" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: August-09-2016 at 6:56pm
| Subtract the cost of a non roller block (sell your existing) as well as the flat tappet cam/lifter cost if that would have been part of the short block/rebuild... I was talking cost delta, not total cost. EI, "how much more would it cost me to go roller?" I'd say ~$500, and worth every penny. |
Posted By: gun-driver
Date Posted: August-09-2016 at 8:12pm
If you can sell your junk at $0.10 on the dollar maybe Non roller Windsor block??? What's cast scrap going for these days
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Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: August-09-2016 at 8:52pm
| More than you might think! Anyone doing a flat tappet or tie bar lifter rebuild could use a good 351 core. |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: August-09-2016 at 9:56pm
$4.50 per 100 for clean cast iron (no turnings). ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: gun-driver
Date Posted: August-09-2016 at 10:27pm
If scraps that high in Connecticut I have a truck load to unload then we can do some skiing
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Posted By: Dreaming
Date Posted: August-10-2016 at 2:41pm
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Here is maybe the best of both worlds, I like a sure bet, and the gamble of a used motor is a bit daunting to me, so, with that narrowing my options, and knowing that machine work on my existing block is $1500+ parts, This block at summit looks like a good option. I would still run the Gt-40 heads, just exchange the bottom end for a roller block. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/hpe-sp10/overview/" rel="nofollow - Roller short block- Hypereutectic pistons - Would lifters already be in the assembled block? - Looks like a cam is excluded, What lift/duration roller cam would I be looking for? - Do I need to be concerned that this doesn't say Marine on it? assuming that an automotive build is a little tighter, is that going to be a problem? - any opinions on Hypereutectic pistons? Sorry for the 20 questions, but I really value the expertise you guys bring to the table |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: August-10-2016 at 3:00pm
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Keep looking in just a page or two I saw they had a marine 351 listed not a roller but it had a cam and heads. Maybe a call would confirm they could provide a marine short block with roller cam ? ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: Dreaming
Date Posted: August-11-2016 at 1:57pm
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OK.... so more research yesterday, I feel like I am swimming in details and options, but after a frank conversation with my wife regarding our time priorities, I will be ordering a long block. Summit has this one with the GT-40 heads already set up https://www.summitracing.com/parts/hme-dma1-gtp/overview/make/atk" rel="nofollow - gt40 Long block The one thing I noticed with this engine choice is the high volume oil pump... since I just did the DUI swap, I know they had specific instructions that you were to run a standard Oil pump, not a high volume one, or if you chose to do this outside of their recommendation, drill an additional oil passage in the block and run a brass distributor gear. I guess I'll be asking summit if they can give me a standard Oil pump in this build. |
Posted By: oldcuda
Date Posted: August-11-2016 at 2:13pm
| Marine engines require a different ring gap very important !! Since they are under heavy load most of the time make sure whoever you get shortblock from understands marine specs |
Posted By: Dreaming
Date Posted: August-11-2016 at 3:48pm
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Thanks Cuda, this is a specifically a marine motor, so they advertise special "marine parts". hopefully I'll have some real spec's once I get a response from Summit |
Posted By: oldcuda
Date Posted: August-11-2016 at 4:00pm
| Somehow missed link on marine longblock DUH. Yep that would be right direction. |
Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: August-13-2016 at 3:39am
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Dreaming, Check with Motorworks in Spokane or with S and J in Spokane. Both deliver to Seattle a couple times a week. These are major rebuilders. Both rebuild a few hundred engines per month and have good reputations. Both will allow you to upgrade if that is your choice. Motorworks can run the engine in for you on their dyno and make sure your fuel system is working well if you wish. Costs more but not a bad option. |
Posted By: Dreaming
Date Posted: August-13-2016 at 9:03pm
| MrMcD, thanks for the tip, I emailed summit last week and got no response.... seems like an easy question, so maybe they are just busy. I will check with Motorworks and S&J, I like local companies and will compare prices. Reliability is paramount at this point, otherwise I would embark on the rebuild myself path.... its kinda killing me to buy an engine already rebuilt, but other things are more important to do myself. I did a Honda engine 4 years ago, and a couple of other engines before that. I enjoy the process, but don't have any experience with SBF's. |
Posted By: Dreaming
Date Posted: August-15-2016 at 5:44pm
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Still no answer from Summit, but both of the shops that MrMcD recommended called me back. I compared prices and services on both and made the choice to go with S&J, as they were able to provide a roller cam engine with GT40P heads. They were cheaper on the roller motor than Motorworks, although Steve at Motorworks was very knowledgeable and fun to talk to he obviously loves what he does. All said, I will be receiving my new motor next Wednesday. I'll update more as I get it in the boat. |
Posted By: rrman01
Date Posted: August-15-2016 at 6:07pm
| Will the dipstick be in the block or the pan? |
Posted By: Dreaming
Date Posted: August-15-2016 at 6:35pm
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I think it's in the pan, its to the right of the alternator in the first picture. I'll have to confirm when I get home though. |
Posted By: Dreaming
Date Posted: August-25-2016 at 3:32am
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So here's the latest update: the engine is out and stripped. I found a couple of things in the process that I'd love to have some feedback on... 1. my intake is cracked, from the t-stat housing all the way into the lifter valley. Yuck.... what do I gain by upgrading verses finding a stock replacement?  2. when I took off the front pulley, these two "weights" fell out of the front of it. are they for balancing? If they are for balance, should I get a new pulley, or try and repair somehow? Is there anything special about this pulley that I should know if I need to order one "weights"  Rim of the pulley where I suspect they are from:  3. Should I replace the engine water pump now? Mine seemed to be working fine when removed... Interesting side notes: -94 PCM engines are roller blocks, they have the boss in the lifter valley, . - my dipstick is in the side of the oil pan. - My engine saw a LOT of water for a sustained period of time Note the water mark on the flywheel, and the back of the transmission. and the crust on the timing gears. there is a bunch of crust in the lifter valley as well...    when I pulled the left head, I found a bunch of "Grit" in cylinder #4, but no signs of bad rust pitting... I did do a leak down test and the cylinder was at the low end of marginal and leaking through the rings, so I feel like purchasing a motor was still the right decision for me... I could have maybe gotten by with a hone and a re-ring, but that would have been the same amount of tear down work. |
Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: August-25-2016 at 5:47am
| It looks like you had water sitting in that engine rusting the timing set? Have not seen that before. Good thing you are fixing this one. |
Posted By: Dreaming
Date Posted: August-26-2016 at 1:57pm
Engine has arrived!  While I was waiting for the truck to show up yesterday, I got some of the old parts cleaned, and started to paint manifolds etc. I also did a little site research and found several intake threads. In my reading, it looks like the Edelbrock Performer RPM intake and the square bore adapter plate were best choice shortest engine height/best performance, so that is what I ordered to replace my cracked stock manifold. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/EDL-2732" rel="nofollow - Square bore Adapter https://www.summitracing.com/parts/EDL-7181" rel="nofollow - Edelbrock Manifold looks like more paint work and some bottom end assembly this week while I wait for the intake to arrive. Sure hope it gets here quickly, vacation is scheduled for the week of the 6th, nothing like trying to button it up last minute |
Posted By: lewy2001
Date Posted: August-26-2016 at 9:23pm
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How about a https://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/wnd-8023wnd" rel="nofollow - Weiand Stealth ------------- If you're going through hell, keep going http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2999" rel="nofollow - 89 Ski <a href="http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=5685" ta |
Posted By: Jonny Quest
Date Posted: August-27-2016 at 2:24am
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I believe that the Weiand Stealth is a bit lower than the Edelbrock Performer. Height may be an issue, so an inch may be significant. JQ ------------- Current 2003 Ski Nautique 206 Limited Previous 2001 Ski Nautique Open Bow 1994 Ski Nautique Open Bow Aqua skiing, ergo sum |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: August-27-2016 at 7:05am
| Incorrect. Stealth is comparable in performance and height to a Performer RPM. Taller than the Performer by about 1". |
Posted By: Dreaming
Date Posted: August-27-2016 at 9:18pm
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Ok, well, I may have just created more work for myself. I was thinking that the performer RPM and the Performer were the same height. Several threads recommended the RPM vs the straight performer, so that is what I have on the way. Here is the thread I found during my research http://www.correctcraftfan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=5438&title=edelbrock-performer-intake-manifold" rel="nofollow - Intake Thread I may end up having to cut down the flame arrestor a bit if all doesn't go as planned. Tim - can you explain the purpose of the carb spacer with the PCV port? it appears that there is a vacuum port on the manifold that could be used for the PCV if I wanted to eliminate the spacer. Eliminating the spacer could get the carb lower and limit the need for arrestor Mods and throttle cable adjustments too. |
Posted By: Dreaming
Date Posted: September-02-2016 at 1:37pm
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Progress update So Summit didn't have the intake in stock, but I found that JEG's did, so after canceling and re-ordering the intake, I received it last night, The night's beginning canvas:  Here is where I finished up:  More progress for tonight I hope, as I'd like to get this thing installed on Saturday so I can do my initial run and testing Sunday or Monday. anyone that understands carb spacers, I am still confused about why they are needed. even after reading several internet articles, I think that the 4 hole spacer I have is supposed to give the engine more low end torque, correct? Other articles say not to run them, but that's where some of the site expertise would be helpful. What has your experience been? |
Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: September-02-2016 at 7:20pm
| I have seen dyno operators test an engine, then add a spacer and see the same exact engine pick up 10 or more horsepower. The whys of this I can't explain but many times the spacer will add horsepower. When do you put a fire in the hole? (start it up) |
Posted By: oldcuda
Date Posted: September-02-2016 at 7:31pm
| I believe most of the time that improvement happens at higher rims than these engines will ever see. There might be a little better torque in the midrange. |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: September-02-2016 at 10:34pm
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4 hole spacers add low-mid torque, open spacers help mid upper hp. That's the conventional line of thinking anyways. Depending on the intake and arrestor you're running, it may be a moot point. Motor box clearance may make your decision easier. PCV plumbing is a consideration if you decide to ditch the spacer. |
Posted By: Jonny Quest
Date Posted: September-02-2016 at 11:55pm
Weiand Stealth: Height: Front 4.37", Rear 5.06". Carb pad height 4.72" Performer: Height: Front 4.30", Rear 5.30"; Carb pad height: 4.80" Very close, but, per the specs, the Weiand Stealth is a smidge lower. JQ ------------- Current 2003 Ski Nautique 206 Limited Previous 2001 Ski Nautique Open Bow 1994 Ski Nautique Open Bow Aqua skiing, ergo sum |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: September-03-2016 at 8:50am
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Specs are wrong or are using different reference points. Stock-stealth-performer  Performer-stealth-stock 
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Posted By: Jonny Quest
Date Posted: September-03-2016 at 9:59am
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Tim: Good to see the side-by-side. I almost bought the Weiand Stealth as the specifications showed it lower than the Edelbrock Performer. I even called both manufacturers to verify numbers. Both verified the printed specifications. Looks like somebody at Holley/Weiand has their numbers wrong. Based on your picture, it appears that the Edelbrock is a little higher than the stock manifold (assuming that is a stock manifold). What is the height difference from stock to the Edelbrock? JQ ------------- Current 2003 Ski Nautique 206 Limited Previous 2001 Ski Nautique Open Bow 1994 Ski Nautique Open Bow Aqua skiing, ergo sum |
Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: September-03-2016 at 5:45pm
| Great answer for him Tim, your spare parts list is amazing. You must be experimenting a lot. |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: September-03-2016 at 6:30pm
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That pic is 10yrs old, back from when I upgraded my '90. Those pics have been posted a few times on here. Haven't built a warm sbf since then... The stealth is what got installed. Performer is 1.5" taller than stock. Stealth is another 1" taller yet. |
Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: September-03-2016 at 7:10pm
| Does switching from the stock fiberglass muffler on the GT40 to the Y pipe add any power or does it just enhance sound? |
Posted By: KRoundy
Date Posted: September-04-2016 at 5:59am
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Kris, any updates? Did you get it installed and started? That new engine sure is pretty. ------------- Previous: 1993 Electric Blue/Charcoal Ski Nautique Current: 2016 Ski Nautique 200 Open Bow |
Posted By: TallTex
Date Posted: September-04-2016 at 5:01pm
| Seems complete, I have seen worse. I do not see anything that is scary. Most all can be rebuilt/reburb. Several good TBI rebuilders online too. Had my injectors rebuilt, calibrated mine flow equal and better than new. I personally would not buy old bon-yard parts until a machine shop confirms what you have is not repairable. Look over at Fordmuscle forums for lots of how-tos on all things Ford performance. Your engine is basically same as Ford Lightning 150 or other similar HP models. Good to start as original and an be a real beast with the right tweaks. |
Posted By: TallTex
Date Posted: September-05-2016 at 1:00pm
| My vote for problem with low compression is a valve issue not rings. The TBI injectors may had water in them from water in the tank. All needs to be cleaned from tank forward, injectors can be rebuilt and calibrated to flow equally. |
Posted By: Dreaming
Date Posted: September-05-2016 at 8:28pm
| well, it has been a LONG couple of days, but the engine is in, and I put the boat in the water this morning for a shake down cruise! ... Pretty excited to have it start, idle and go. It definitely needs a bit of adjustment, I must have mis-adjusted the transmission shift cable, as the forward shift is a bit on the hard side, and comes in about 900rpm or so. reverse feels super nice and comes in great. I had 75PSI of oil pressure, and ran at about 175 for temp on the lake, so I feel pretty happy with where we are now. definitely some lessons learned that I'll post later, but on the way to the lake today, I discovered some trailer braking issues that I need to go look at.. BTW, my intake barely fits under the dog house, but it works, I think it is squishing the insulation just a hair, but that's something to worry about later. |
Posted By: Dreaming
Date Posted: September-05-2016 at 8:39pm
Some photo evidence   
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Posted By: KRoundy
Date Posted: September-06-2016 at 5:10pm
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Yes! Congratulations! ------------- Previous: 1993 Electric Blue/Charcoal Ski Nautique Current: 2016 Ski Nautique 200 Open Bow |
Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: September-06-2016 at 10:28pm
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Congratulations, how does it sound? |
Posted By: Dreaming
Date Posted: September-11-2016 at 7:18pm
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He guys, Sorry for the delayed response, we were away on vacation. Unfortunately, we made it approximately 60 miles from the house before the truck cam shaft sensor decided it was done (Snoqualmie pass- For Kevin's benefit) and left us with a large tow bill and some really bummed out kids. After being towed, we decided to salvage what was left of our vacation days and went to the ocean instead, sans boat. So, no lake Chelan boating excursion for us this year, I guess we'll have to try again next summer. The trailer brake issue was amazingly simple, I am not sure why someone had put 4 new backing plates and new shoes on the trailer, and failed to adjust them, but it sure made stopping a WHOLE lot nicer once they were all adjusted properly. For lessons learned on the engine rebuild/assembly: - get a harmonic damper installing tool. You can rent the puller at a local auto supply store, but the install tool will save your..... bacon. I tried to put the balancer on with the bolt, and had to look for a new bolt for several hours on a holiday weekend. It was expensive, and I had to buy the install tool anyway, so just buy it in the first place. BTW, no impact wrench was involved in severly cross threading the bolt (1/4" of threads), it was all by hand, but I mis-interpreted the resistance as the pulley needing to go on, instead of the fact that I was crossed up. once stuck, the cross thread was VERY difficult to remove. - New ford blocks have an oil dip stick hole in the block, this is easily sealed by installing a "freeze plug" in the hole. There are several hack methods, but since the soft plug is so readily available, and is a removable solution if the block needs to have a dipstick in the future, the choice seemed clear. - My Edelbrock RPM performer manifold with a 1" stock spacer and a standard spark arrestor fit fine under the dog house, YMMV, but it may work if your alignment puts the engine lower than about 1/2 way on the mounts. it is very tight though - Great stuff comes in caulking style tubes, about half the size of a standard tube. this is plenty of sealer if you end up doing everything with the same sealant. I used most of the 1/2 size tube. I did GS my oil pan, before reading the instructions that the sealer is only n eeded in the corners, but I read several varying opinions on whether or not to seal the silicone seal or not. Time will tell, it does not leak yet, after almost an hour of run time. - WINTERIZE.... yes, this is important, I would not have purchased this boat if I had known all the things that I would need to replace due to someones lack of attention to winterizing. I had to do breakers, steering cable, engine, exhaust, bilge pump, shower, blower etc, as I think that the water got pretty high before it froze. Over all, I have a much greater understanding for how these boats are put together, and a greater appreciation for how much they cost. I've decided that the next one will probably not be a project
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Posted By: KRoundy
Date Posted: September-11-2016 at 7:44pm
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Kris says - "I've decided that the next one will probably not be a project " Ha ha ha - I so agree, Kris. Bummer on the truck breakdown. Snoqualmie Pass is a LONG ways from anywhere. Drop me a line next week so we can catch up. I'm playing with my grandson all week this week!!! Kevin ------------- Previous: 1993 Electric Blue/Charcoal Ski Nautique Current: 2016 Ski Nautique 200 Open Bow |