Stumbling after 4-5k rpms |
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79nautique
Grand Poobah Joined: January-27-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 7872 |
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Posted: July-09-2010 at 3:32pm |
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All adjustments to speed and other operating conditions are made in the control module under the ignition coi Is. The only maintenance adjustment necessary with the PROTE ignition system is setting the initial timing.
C. OVER REV PROTECTION -Over-revving is prevented by an over-rev system which limits the maximum engine RPM's to 4900 to 5050 RPM's This isn't fropm the manual but all other is so if you can't properly set the base timing using the correct tools it will never run right, |
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tommer12
Senior Member Joined: February-05-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 366 |
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ok, so you are saying that my timing is not the problem. The pro-tec is not the problem. Did I read into that correct?
Im not getting backfires. I can hit it out of the hole from 0-39 mph, not hesitation, nothing. Sling shots out. But it seems to have a hard time "finding" itself, but then hits on all and proceeds to 5k with no issue. I havent checked my antisiphon valve yet. Not sure.... Its not a big deal to me. It runs fine, i usually do not run that fast anyways. It would nice to nail this down. It was definately better yesterday. Who knows, maybe its just crappy gas from sitting in the tank for 13+ months. It was full and stabil in it through the layup, but.... I need two boats, one to tinker with and one with EFI! |
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84 SN, 92 SNOB, 2005 SANTE 2006 SN 206
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79nautique
Grand Poobah Joined: January-27-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 7872 |
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you comprehension sucks,
said if the timing of the interruptor isn't clocked right then it misfires for the entire rpm range not at the top end only and there isn't any amount of radio noise going to screw up the module and make it missfire either fool. keep on pissing in the wind you seem to enjoy it from how often your doing it I could lead you down the right path but you screwed yourself long ago |
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tommer12
Senior Member Joined: February-05-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 366 |
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Thanks. I know I have to re-time it. I couldnt yesterday because it was too bright out. I couldnt see the light, nor had anyone to shield the sun so I could at least see the light.
The nautique dealer thought that the radio noise at the upper might be whats causing it. (only reason i mentioned it) Like I said, I will try and get it timed again. I have the autolite 764 in there gapped at .045. Just as my manual (and skidim) recommends. |
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84 SN, 92 SNOB, 2005 SANTE 2006 SN 206
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79nautique
Grand Poobah Joined: January-27-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 7872 |
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no I just designed DIS system for years I don't no squat about how to make one work. but I do know it's not the Pro-tec causing the issue as you think that's the problem and it's not timed right. If it was timed wrong it would be screwed for the entire RPM range as the trigger device/interruptor has two elements in it one emulates the crank postion, the other emulates the cylinders so if it's off it mis fires on every cyclinder slightly has that is what the computer is recieving from the interruptor DA. Radio noise screwing up a solid state curcuit, that was always a major issue to deal with designing them NOT DA .
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tommer12
Senior Member Joined: February-05-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 366 |
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I guess you cant read. I can get to 5k and the pro tec reduces the power you idiot. Its the pro tec pack that is going bad. 5k is the limit on this boat per Nautique. (called the local dealer). So if want more speed or higher RPMs past 5k, i need to switch out to the pro tec.
My issue before was that it never got to 5k. now it does with slight hesitation at around 39 mph @4500 rpm. Right between 4500 and 5k she has trouble finding the timing it sounds like to me, then hits it and clean up to 5k with no issue. The pro tec pack probably is beginning to break down and noise is happening. (i think the dealer said radio frequency) the coil packs cant take the load. So before you lame blast me with your childish smiley faces and broken english, do me a favor and find the tech manual for pro tec and read up on it. Because you do not know what you are talking about. Everything else beside pro tec I think you have some great knowledge, bad presentation. its like every morning someone pissed in your coffee and you started typing in the forums |
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84 SN, 92 SNOB, 2005 SANTE 2006 SN 206
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79nautique
Grand Poobah Joined: January-27-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 7872 |
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nothing like shooting in the dark and continually missing the target you don't have a clue, Lets put grease here that will help..... try rolling back off the throttle a little and I bet it clears out and runs smooth old dumber12 is clueless to the issue and how to fix it. anyone have any better thought on the issue than the clueless wonder has came up with shooting in the dark? the throttle still moves forward but it's not going any faster so something is a miss because I still have throttle left, but I never look at the other end to figure out there's none left. what a waiste. |
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tommer12
Senior Member Joined: February-05-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 366 |
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So I just had it out again. Checked the gaps on the plugs to .045 and took off each spark plug boot at the protech box and of course the spark plugs and put some dielectric grease in each. I pulled on boot off the box and it was a little rough. So Im guessing that was the boot end possibly failing and grease helps it. I can get to 5k pretty easy now, but I still have more throttle left, just that the protech wont let me go past there!
She did surge around just after 4500, but I think its timing. I tried to retime but it was too bright out trying to see the light was next to impossible. I suppose if I retime one more time, I think it will be good. If not, the protec is shot at the upper end. All through the rest of the RPMs, its great. out of the hole floored she rockets out of the water, no issue. Idles great..(little high because timing is not quite right). I'll fix the timing another day... I usually do not run constant at 4500k anyways, maybe when I barefoot, but my speedos are off right, need to recalibrate those. Since its not pinging, I think im ok for now. Need to get rid of my old fuel. Another half tank to go and refill with 89. Picture of Kal-i-for-nia dry docks in discovery bay |
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84 SN, 92 SNOB, 2005 SANTE 2006 SN 206
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kapla
Grand Poobah Joined: March-27-2008 Location: BA, Argentina Status: Offline Points: 6148 |
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I guees the issue is a faulty protec....I'm interested in knowing what solves your issue as i'm in the same situation....
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<a href="">1992 ski nautique
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tommer12
Senior Member Joined: February-05-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 366 |
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So when you said "issue" up around 4700-4800... was this its limit? |
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84 SN, 92 SNOB, 2005 SANTE 2006 SN 206
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79nautique
Grand Poobah Joined: January-27-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 7872 |
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BTW your still an idiot and don't have it fixed also you forgot that the cams and the prom are not the same thus the two HP rates DA. |
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Online Points: 21131 |
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You can, and it wont hurt- but it wont solve your issue either.
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tommer12
Senior Member Joined: February-05-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 366 |
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Thats awesome to know! I will check it out farther now with retiming it and possibly gapping the plugs. Do you think the I should gap the plugs to .045 as skidims recommends with the proboss? (aka GT40-P heads I run now from stock?) I really appreciate your feedback! |
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84 SN, 92 SNOB, 2005 SANTE 2006 SN 206
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Online Points: 21131 |
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Nope, guess again. We upgraded to GT40 heads on our 255 hp '92 with Protec and it ran up to 4700-4800 without issue. The rev limiter on the Protec shouldnt kick in until 5k.
Bore and stroke are obviously the same between the 2 motors as theyre both 351w's. Compression should be very close, as the GT40 and standard E7 heads have very similar sized combustion chambers. The P heads have smaller chambers and will bump you up to 9.0-9.5:1. I have seen no evidence to support that the cam was upgraded on the Proboss motors, though. |
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tommer12
Senior Member Joined: February-05-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 366 |
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I think I have nailed it, but I need to go out and mark the RPM where it starts to stumble.
I just noticed in my manual, max RPM is 4400. If that is the case.... I would probably put money it, the Pro Tec is limiting the engine at 4400 RPMs. Does not matter if you have Proboss or standard.... clear accross the board is 4400 RPMs. By the way 79nautique.... Bore, Stroke and compression are all the same (at least in 92 manual) for the 245 and 285. |
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84 SN, 92 SNOB, 2005 SANTE 2006 SN 206
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79nautique
Grand Poobah Joined: January-27-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 7872 |
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tommer12
Senior Member Joined: February-05-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 366 |
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We need to make a Pro Tec forum only. 79Nautique is not invited. haha.
I have to laugh at how huffy puffy he gets. Sounds exactly the same as mine. it was about there and maybe its not stumbling.. just limiting. Which sounds correct to me. I'll probably double check my timing (even though I did it about 3 times) put the grease on and see what happens. If not.. I will live it until the pack fails completely. I already dumped $900 on heads/gaskets/paint/bolts/beer. Another $400 for the conversion kit... maybe hold off for a bit. |
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84 SN, 92 SNOB, 2005 SANTE 2006 SN 206
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79nautique
Grand Poobah Joined: January-27-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 7872 |
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better advice would have been to clean all the grounds on all the engine wiring. Setting the base timing correctly so the computer feeds the correct information to the module to fire the coil properly. But what the hell did *************** listen regarding the fuel pump NNNOOOOOOO..... so I really don't give a fly F anymore if you fix it or not I just know I done waisting MY TIME ON YOUR SECOND GUESS DUMB .... just my .02 |
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kapla
Grand Poobah Joined: March-27-2008 Location: BA, Argentina Status: Offline Points: 6148 |
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Seems like you are having same problems as me....my engine runs strong all the way to 4400rpm...then it stays there although more throttle left on the lever...its acts like a rev limiter is kicking in....
I´m about to trash the PT and buy the retrofit...I´m just figuring out the best shipping options to save some money on customs tax... |
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<a href="">1992 ski nautique
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tommer12
Senior Member Joined: February-05-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 366 |
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I dropped a call to my local CC dealer. The guy there said it is possible the computer getting mixed readings at higher RPM and putting the engine into power reduction mode. The mixed readings are from radio frequency waves from the plugs arhing (I think that is what he said). He said its pretty hard to diagnose the issues, but after 3200 rpms and power drops or surges like that, the computer could be causing it to this. He said to try some diaelectric grease on each plug wire boot to make sure its connecting solid and try again.. otherwise... its time to replace the protech.
Wait for it.... wait for it..... "I told you to get rid of the POS protech system!" |
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84 SN, 92 SNOB, 2005 SANTE 2006 SN 206
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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You are correct Chris. I haven't been building up engines to try to make them fast but then don't go fast or come out of the hole very well. Besides, one of my engines has a manual advance and another you just twist the distributor for max RPM and then back it off slightly. (the third does get the light attached to it) BTW, the Zenon light I did have was probably the same as you mentioned. Just sort of a light bulb with wires and clips on them. I'll bet Gary (Gary S) has one of them!! Back in the old days, we both shopped at J.C. Whitney/Warshawski!! |
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79nautique
Grand Poobah Joined: January-27-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 7872 |
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Pete There's one at the shop that I bet is older than you, looks like a small light bulb with leads and aligator clips. BTW why the hell would you have a good timing light your still d*cking around with points, but hey at least you don't loose any judges points |
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79nautique
Grand Poobah Joined: January-27-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 7872 |
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The timing has to be exact other wise you have firing issue that show up with higher rpms. The computor adjust the advance so there is no fudge factor like with a distributor. Most DIS ignitions use a crank and cam sensor that are fixed no adjustment and alignment to jack with, Cadillac uses two cranks and two cam sensors, most systems require a magentic tipped timing gun for verification again you cannot change the timing profile on a dis system. |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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It's a good thing I haven't ever mentioned the timing light I have to Chris. No advance feature!!! The one before this one was a simple zenon light!!
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tommer12
Senior Member Joined: February-05-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 366 |
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idle is good and steady. She doesnt rise or fall from @700rpm even in gear it stays. She was running hot yesterday over 4k. I found a piece of impeller lodge in the water intake/outtake on the pump. (forgot which). But that shouldnt cause it from stumbling.
I'll have to find another timing gun and try again. it very well could be the protech is dying out. If I time this precisely with another gun and still stumbles at the upper end... the protech maybe cant keep up. Which seems odd. you would think it either works or doesnt work with the computer. but who knows |
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84 SN, 92 SNOB, 2005 SANTE 2006 SN 206
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79nautique
Grand Poobah Joined: January-27-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 7872 |
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if idle isn't steady or the timing you have other issues that are not fuel related.
So for the umptenth time, set base timing at 10 BTDC knock sensor wire connected, setting the interruptor's base timing, disconnect knock sensor verify timing is steady, verify timing at 3600 rpm but get a real timing light so that the timing can be set properly. |
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Online Points: 21131 |
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Not being intimately familiar with the inner workings of the Protec, it sounds to me like youre in the ballpark with the timing. Its possible that your Protec is f'd, in which case no amount of fiddling is going to help it. My initial take on your description of the symptoms was the same as Gottaski's- classic fuel delivery problem. Id take a look at your antisiphon valve before doing much else.
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tommer12
Senior Member Joined: February-05-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 366 |
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Its a love/hate relationship. I see it already.
From being on the trailer, I do not have it gear at 700rpms. It was 700 in neutral. So this could be why also. The knock sensor is a wire with a nut on it. You have take the nut off, remove the wire. So its off. Should I be in the water, in gear at 700 RPM and time then? I clearly have a white line I put at 18 BTDC. So my light is hitting the point at that line. Unless my light is screwed. |
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84 SN, 92 SNOB, 2005 SANTE 2006 SN 206
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mtguy
Senior Member Joined: August-04-2008 Location: Priest Lake, ID Status: Offline Points: 165 |
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Gentlemen, gentlemen, am I going to have to separate you two?
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'95 SN
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79nautique
Grand Poobah Joined: January-27-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 7872 |
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I don't expect lip, I give it back very harshly at times,
so either your not too good at reading a timing light or your's isn't very good and you need the correct style light. The timing will not vary, so the 16-18 something is wrong, your technique, timing light, or the protec module. It should be steady at 18 BTDC knock sensor disconnected and this is only for verification not adjusting. So if it's not steady at 700 rpm, did you even look at that after the knock sensor was unpluged? and at a steady 18 BTDC there isn't a range for this then it's screwed up and not set correctly or the module is going out. |
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