Where to start with this engine rebuild? |
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Dreaming
Platinum Member Joined: May-21-2010 Location: Tacoma, WA Status: Offline Points: 1870 |
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Posted: August-05-2013 at 5:33pm |
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So with last weeks boat purchase, I have a new challenge; Determining whether this engine is an anchor, or a starting point. It's ugly.
- 5.8 PCM pro boss with Protec ign, and Protech TBI - I have no Idea if anything is functional - Crankshaft will not spin with a breaker bar - Freeze plugs (casting plugs) are popped - 5 of them around the perimeter, and one in the front of the head - hobbs shows 355 hours - TBI ports have rust in them... the cover must have been up for some time with the flame arrestor off. My objective is pretty much a straight up rebuild or swap, I am not looking to make extra power, or go fast, I want a reliable boat, with minimal hassles once I finish the project. I spent my stringer rebuild budget on this boat, so It's time to research while I work to sell off the 82 to replenish the cash supply - Should I ditch the protec TBI? with the pictures, it appears to have gotten wet. Is carburation a direct swap? - should I free the crankshaft/pistons before removing the engine? - is this an exercise in futility, and I should just get a block from a junk yard and start fresh? I'd love to hear opinions. |
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TX Foilhead
Grand Poobah Joined: February-01-2009 Location: Kingsland TX Status: Offline Points: 2076 |
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I want those valve covers if you toss the motor.
I wouldn't count on the ProTec working. I lould figure a replacement in the budget and then try it once you have a working motor before you order a carb an a dizzy. |
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Bri892001
Grand Poobah Joined: September-27-2008 Location: Boston MA Status: Offline Points: 4947 |
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You could always toss in this puppy:
PCM Carb'd Chevy 300HP only 7.5 Grand I'd love to see the results, but I'm guessing it would blow up your budget. |
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Dreaming
Platinum Member Joined: May-21-2010 Location: Tacoma, WA Status: Offline Points: 1870 |
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I like the valve covers too :) they are cool. There is a set on Ebay currently if you want a set. Good point on not expecting anything to work. I went in with that mentality, figuring that I had a very nice hull if I had to start over. |
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Gary S
Grand Poobah Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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I think if you find out your motor is toast having a lefty gives you alot of options. You could either grab an engine at a junk yard for a solid core and have the machine work done and assemble yourself or buy a short or long block and go from there. 94-97 F250's have roller 351s in them from what I have read on this Mustang forum. Add a nice carb and a DUI and youd be all set
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Dreaming
Platinum Member Joined: May-21-2010 Location: Tacoma, WA Status: Offline Points: 1870 |
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thanks Gary, that's exactly the kind of details I think will be very helpful. Is there a way to tell if an engine is a roller? I've rebuilt a few engines, and had great success, but never a ford and never a V-8. Are there nuances that I should look for in a block? or are they all pretty similar?
Do rollers produce the same power in the same RPM range as flat tappets? Do I need to be cautious of that? or is that a function of the cam grind, where if I remove my existing cam, I can just put it in and run it? Book suggestions would probably be good here too. that's definitely reading I don't mind doing |
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Dreaming
Platinum Member Joined: May-21-2010 Location: Tacoma, WA Status: Offline Points: 1870 |
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Brian, I think that motor would end up being more than twice what I paid for the boat
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TX Foilhead
Grand Poobah Joined: February-01-2009 Location: Kingsland TX Status: Offline Points: 2076 |
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It's not a roller if it's stock, engine tag should tell you which way it turns. The cam and head upgrade would be in order since they should'nt cost you any extra if the motor is junk. You Have GT40 heads there so if they're good then just add the cam. If its RR then you can't make it a roller cam because there aren't any roller cams, if it's standard then you'll have plenty of choices.
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Gary S
Grand Poobah Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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It is my understanding that the blocks themselfs are the same. Just because it's a roller makes no difference,it's the camshaft grind itself that determins the rpm range. If your original cam is good you could reuse it,but since it's a flat tappet it might be worth your time to change to a roller especially if you can find a truck block then you don't have to worry about oil with the zinc additive. From what I have found out by looking on Ford forums is "If it's an F4TE then it is a roller block",but where that is located on the block I don't know.Then I also read that it can have a flat tappet also but it still is a roller block,which means that it has mountings for the "spider" that keeps the lifter located and the lifter bores are taller. |
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gun-driver
Grand Poobah Joined: July-18-2008 Location: Pittsburgh, Pa Status: Offline Points: 4117 |
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[/QUOTE] "If it's an F4TE then it is a roller block",but where that is located on the block I don't know.Then I also read that it can have a flat tappet also but it still is a roller block,which means that it has mountings for the "spider" that keeps the lifter located and the lifter bores are taller.[/QUOTE]
Yep what he said. You can find the block number above the starter. If you decide to stay stock I have a cam and lifters out of my '95 GT-40 EFI I would let go cheap. |
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KRoundy
Platinum Member Joined: August-23-2010 Location: Lake Stevens Status: Offline Points: 1702 |
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Kris,
You're getting some good info here. As you wait for the cash flows to start moving in the right direction again, I would suggest that you start to curiously investigate that block. It will be interesting to see what parts you can re-use and what ones are toast. I'm amazed that all those freeze plugs popped. That's really serious boat abuse. Why switch from TBI to a carb? |
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Previous: 1993 Electric Blue/Charcoal Ski Nautique
Current: 2016 Ski Nautique 200 Open Bow |
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phatsat67
Grand Poobah Joined: March-13-2006 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 6149 |
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TBI relies on the Pro-Tec to work properly. Going with a carb and regular distributor set up will ensure long life and never a lack of replacement parts.
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Dreaming
Platinum Member Joined: May-21-2010 Location: Tacoma, WA Status: Offline Points: 1870 |
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Kevin - My Thinking was along the lines of what Zach was suggesting. The protec may be in working order, but I am guessing that I need to budget for replacemnt if nothing else. With the hood haven sat open and everything looking like it has been in the weather a bit, I am wondering if the electronic firing mechanism for the TBI is going to function at all.
- While I am waiting, I do think I am going to try unstick the block... Maybe Acetone/ATF,or some other method of getting the stuck rings loose. The casting plugs could have saved it, and if I can get it loosened up, it's worth the $100 to put new casting plugs in get it running and see if the water jacket is cracked. I'd suppose that if the WJ is cracked, I'll see water in the oil pretty quickly. |
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21138 |
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I would suggest 1)break it free 2)compression test and 3)replace casting plugs if #2 checks out ok... because while its not definitive, its a good first step.
Dont force the crank bolt too hard when trying to break it free- use a breaker bar on the flywheel if necessary. If it doesnt come easily after sitting for a while, pull the valve covers and make sure the valves arent frozen- else you might bend a pushrod if you force it. Taking the heads off would be a last resort if you suspect frozen valves and cant get them unstuck. Letting a healthy amount of ATF or ATF/acetone sit in the cylinders for a while is a good idea before re-attempting. |
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phatsat67
Grand Poobah Joined: March-13-2006 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 6149 |
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If that throttle body is junked I have a pretty nice new one sitting here ;).
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storm34
Grand Poobah Joined: November-03-2008 Location: Dexter Iowa Status: Offline Points: 4492 |
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My $.02 I thought the same thing until Tim talked me into a Heads/Cam/Intake rebuild in my 78 Tique a few years back. I obliged since it needed rebuilding anyway. He was right and I caught the bug! Even talked PicturePat into letting me tear down his perfectly running 351 and going the same route. We don't make consistent speed runs but it's sure sounds nice and is convenient having the extra HP. It took me a while to get there (mostly due to my lack of knowledge and experience) but it's very reliable and I didn't spend much more than putting stock parts back. Do some comparisons but I'd venture to guess you're not going to spend a whole lot more with a few upgrades in the right places. |
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Dreaming
Platinum Member Joined: May-21-2010 Location: Tacoma, WA Status: Offline Points: 1870 |
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Thanks for the .02 Chris I will definitely do some comparisons if this motor doesn't run the way it is.
Tim- good call on the compression test. I'll mix up some ATF homebrew tonight and dump into the cyls. I think I may pull the valve covers and spread some in there for good measure also. I am guessing I won't have too much time this weekend to work on the boat, so the homebrew can sit and do its magic for a week before I try the crank again. If I can make this motor run, this boat will have been an incredible find. Just as a safety note, I am guessing that there is a torque that I should not exceed on the harmonic balancer bolt... anyone know what that is? If I need to pull the motor and trans, I'm happy to do that, but boat 1 is still in the garage, so I'll have to wait. If I can use a breaker bar and socket on the harmonic balancer bolt a bit, I may be able to make a run at it before boat 1 is sold. |
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Dreaming
Platinum Member Joined: May-21-2010 Location: Tacoma, WA Status: Offline Points: 1870 |
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Pulled The plugs and added ATF to the cyls tonight.... Back plug on the observer side is rusty, the rest looked good. I pulled the observer side valve cover and put some ATF in there also... Top side looked excellent. clean and clear, no evidence of rust at all.
I'm guessing rings are the stuck part. I'll have to fill the crank case with oil too, appears the oil' been drained at some point. |
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21138 |
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Just noticed this... so now Im curious- how did you confirm that the engine was stuck if you have yet to put a breaker bar on the crank? |
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Dreaming
Platinum Member Joined: May-21-2010 Location: Tacoma, WA Status: Offline Points: 1870 |
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I used a 1/2 drive ratchet on the motor when I looked at the boat. I did not enough horse power to turn the motor over with a short handle (8"), so I assumed it was frozen. I used a breaker bar and socket last night and did a great job of loosening the harmonic balancer bolt , but was still unable to turn the crank. I will have to pull the trans and access the flywheel I think. |
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21138 |
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Pull the spark plugs out and put a breaker bar on the crank and try turning the engine over forwards (which will tighten the crank bolt) before you do anything else. It might be frozen, but I dont think you know that definitively yet.
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JoeinNY
Grand Poobah Joined: October-19-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5697 |
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Turn it the other way!
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Dreaming
Platinum Member Joined: May-21-2010 Location: Tacoma, WA Status: Offline Points: 1870 |
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I did turn both ways, just didn't want to break the bolt HOw much can I wrench on that puppy? I don't mind putting some pressure on it, I was just heeding the advice to not overdo the wrenching from this end of the motor.
TRBenj, it's stuck... 2.5' breaker bar, no spark plugs, and the starter is out... it aint budging. |
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GottaSki
Grand Poobah Joined: April-21-2005 Location: NE CT Status: Offline Points: 3337 |
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Consider tightening the balancer bolt to spec, removing the pully, insert some longer bolts to the pully holes, and nudge the engine with a bar acting on the bolts.
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"There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing."
River Rat to Mole |
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backfoot100
Platinum Member Joined: January-03-2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1897 |
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Seems I always have to preface this with the usual "I'm not sure about a Ford" but my Chevy has an inspection plate on the bell housing you can remove and easily use a prybar on the flywheel. Then you don't have to worry about snapping a bolt.
I would first let it sit for a few days before you try moving it either way. If you just put the ATF/acetone mix in the cylinders last night, give it chance to work for you. |
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When people run down to the lake to see what's making that noise, you've succeeded.
Eddie |
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89Martinique
Senior Member Joined: September-05-2011 Location: Binghamton Status: Offline Points: 457 |
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If you ditch the Protec, I would be happy to take it off you hands
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1992 Supra Comp-TS6M PCM 351w HO Pro Boss Pro-Tec Ignition - Full Composite (no wood stingers!) 1989 (3rd Gen) Correct Craft Martinique B/R PCM 351w Power Plus 1984 E-Scow Keuka Lake, |
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Dreaming
Platinum Member Joined: May-21-2010 Location: Tacoma, WA Status: Offline Points: 1870 |
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she spins!!!! Pretty excited that ATF and some additional pressure on the crank pulley bolt made it turn. The starter was out so I tested it in the bench tonight and it seems to spin fine too. I filled the TBI with marvel mystery oil tonight and will let that soak a day or two. Starter will get installed tomorrow and we'll see if there,s compression. Just a side suggestion/ question ... Has anyone used an air fitting and 100. Psi to assist in freeing things up? That was my backup plan this evening. I was thinking that the thing to watch out for would be the back swing on the breaker bar once the engine began to free up.
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Dreaming
Platinum Member Joined: May-21-2010 Location: Tacoma, WA Status: Offline Points: 1870 |
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Compression numbers....
1: 160 psi 2: 172 psi 3: 100 psi 4: 85 psi 5: 120 psi 6: 120 Psi 7: 130 Psi 8: 80 psi So it is evident to me that the rear two cyls are leaking somewhere... probably rings. Cyls 1&2 have the best numbers, and while cranking must have loosen the rings from the lands a bit as they "clicked" and I saw the pressure rise significantly. None of the others "Clicked" and by the time I got to cyl 8, the battery was feeling pretty tired. I don't have a leak down tester, but don't mind picking one up if it is necessary to go further. The TBI freed up a bit over night, but not enough for me to feel that airflow would not be restricted, so the TBI was removed. There is a good thick layer of rusty crap in the intake at the bottom of the inlet... will this crap run out if I get it started? or should I take it all apart? My opinion of the compression numbers is that they are too low and a rebuild is going to be necessary. am I correct? or are there other tests I should run? |
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KRoundy
Platinum Member Joined: August-23-2010 Location: Lake Stevens Status: Offline Points: 1702 |
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First off - woo hoo!!!!
Wow, that is some serious variation on the compression numbers. You put oil in the pan as you mentioned, right? Did you see the pressure come up on the oil gauge as you were spinning it? I'm not an engine expert, but with the data you have right now a rebuild seems like a logical assumption. I could ask a few car guys around if they know of a good shop where you could get a solid 2nd opinion. Let me know. |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Kris,
I don't feel a leak down teat is going to tell you any further info since the compression test on 4 and 8 turned up very bad. I would say those rear cylinders got some water in them. Check out the manifolds. I will also say it's time to pull the engine apart and rebuild just because of the 4 and 8 results you got. You may get away with keeping it running if you can get it started. The ATF may break loose the stuck rings but, then you still need to deal with the TBI! |
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