Carb - Warm Start Help |
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Slupe
Groupie Joined: February-26-2012 Location: Whitefish Bay Status: Offline Points: 40 |
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Posted: August-07-2012 at 9:08pm |
I am a rookie CC owner having what seems to be a common warm start issue. The boat cold starts great with 2 or 3 pumps on the throttle. It also starts easily on 1st crank if it's been turned off for a very short time - swapping a skier. However, after a break on the water for more than a few minutes, it's a real hard start. Either a long crank or WOT. The engine is still warm - I am trying to restart without any pumps or throttle.
My searching points to fuel leaking into the carb after shutoff. The fix is either a float adjustment or needle & seat replacement. Am I on the right track? How can I trouble shoot this further or can you point me to a manual or good post on doing this adjustment/repair? |
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Jllogan
Platinum Member Joined: May-18-2011 Location: canton, OH Status: Offline Points: 1728 |
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bingo, when you stop the boat look in the flame arrestor, if it dripping fuel, 99% sure it is, its flooding itself. Look in the reference section for the PCM manual for your boat or the ford 351 manual. Both have in depth descriptions of the float adjustment.
Basically the front bowl is held on by 4 larges flat head screws or bolts depending on your year of carb. Take those off with a rag under it to catch the gas that pours. Inside that bowl you will see both the float, most likely a large black plastic thing, and the needle and seat. If you move the float up and down with your finger you should get the idea of how it works. When the boat is off the bowl is full of gas and it pushes the float all the way up, this closes the needle and seat and should keep gas from dripping into the engine. If you let go you will see the bowl drop and the needle and seat open. To adjust there is a little metal tab that makes contact with the needle, bend it down ever so slightly with a small screw driver. Now if you flip over the bowl and let gravity pull the float down it should be just above level. So to repeat with the boat upside down you want the float to be angled up ever so slightly. Level is the "manual recommendation" but as you can see, it seems to have an issue at this point due to the angle of our engines it seems. Dont get carried away, start with a minor adjustment. If that doesnt work, time to replace needle and seat, maybe you will want to do that anyways. Hope that makes sense and isnt too indepth. Read the manual for pictures. When ready to close up you may need to replace the gasket between the body and the bowl or the nylon rings that seal the bolts. I like to keep a holley renew kit around (or two) it has all of these parts in it. This seems to be the problem of the year. Maybe someone should do a little walk through, maybe I will, I probably wont. |
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BuffaloBFN
Grand Poobah Joined: June-24-2007 Location: Gainesville,GA Status: Offline Points: 6094 |
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Level is with the boat right-side-up? What's the timing? |
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Slupe
Groupie Joined: February-26-2012 Location: Whitefish Bay Status: Offline Points: 40 |
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I have not checked the timing. Not sure I understand how timing would only impact a warm start after sitting vs a cold start or other warm starts...but it would be simple enough to check.
The boat is actually at our cottage and I won't be there to check anything until next weekend. I just don't want to throw a bunch of parts at it - would prefer to take a structured approach. |
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89Martinique
Senior Member Joined: September-05-2011 Location: Binghamton Status: Offline Points: 457 |
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the timing greatly impacts warm starting and cold starting. turns out our Martinique was running 1 ATDC!!!!! even tho we set it last year it somehow it slipped i guess. no wonder i had to turn it over for over 5 sec when warm!!! (we have mini high torque starter so it spins even faster) also i have the idle set to 250 rpm and it would try to die when warm. when i set timing to 10 btdc it ran much faster, stronger, and smoother. i slowed to idle back down to 250 rpm when warm and it now starts right up! and it doesnt try die when put in gear.
so check your timing it will greatly impact warm starting. |
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Current Boats:
1992 Supra Comp-TS6M PCM 351w HO Pro Boss Pro-Tec Ignition - Full Composite (no wood stingers!) 1989 (3rd Gen) Correct Craft Martinique B/R PCM 351w Power Plus 1984 E-Scow Keuka Lake, |
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Slupe
Groupie Joined: February-26-2012 Location: Whitefish Bay Status: Offline Points: 40 |
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Here's the latest on my issue...
I continued to ski with the original symptoms. I didn't have a chance to troubleshoot. This past weekend, I finally pulled the flame arrestor and was surprised to see the choke wide open at the cold start. As the engine runs and warms up, it actually partially closes. The engine has run 5 to 10 minutes and warmed up to 170-180. After shutting off, I did not see any fuel leaking into the carb. I am thinking instead of a flooding situation, that the choke is malfunctioning. What's everyone think? And - is this wired backwards or what tis the fix? Andy (Still a rookie at the end of the year) |
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JoeinNY
Grand Poobah Joined: October-19-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5693 |
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Was your ignition key on at the time of your cold start picture? The choke should open with the key on whether the motor is running or not. Wiring it backwards wouldnt make it work backwards. If it is actually working backwards somethin is screwy with the linkage in a way I havent seen before.
That being said it does indeed look like you should find a way to make sure that choke is open when your are warmed up and not futz with anything else until after you do that... |
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gun-driver
Grand Poobah Joined: July-18-2008 Location: Pittsburgh, Pa Status: Offline Points: 4112 |
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I agree with Joe get the choke adjusted before anything else.
I think it may be way out of adjustment as I cant see the index mark on the black housing, it should be aligned with the little pointer on the body or at least close one way or another. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0H5IBSFgYJE |
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Bri892001
Grand Poobah Joined: September-27-2008 Location: Boston MA Status: Offline Points: 4945 |
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Joe, Is it possible the Choke Qualifying Linkage is goofed up? What I mean is, isn't there a mechanism that, on cold startup, will kick the choke open a little bit (using vacuum) so that the engine can breathe after it starts. It came up once before where someone messed up the connecting rod for this, and the choke was actually closing further when the motor started up. |
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Slupe
Groupie Joined: February-26-2012 Location: Whitefish Bay Status: Offline Points: 40 |
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Thanks everyone - so the key was on at the original start for 30 seconds or so while I pumped the throttle. I guess I thought it worked off the engine temp and not the ignition, so I wasn't paying as much attention to that. Can someone explain how the choke should work before and after starting the engine. I was troubleshooting this before winterizing, so I wanted to post while this was fresh in my mind but won't get to work on this until spring.
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Andy, Inside the round black cover on the side of your carb is a electrically heated bimetallic spring. It gets powered up when you turn on the ignition key. As it's heated, it opens the choke plate. The choke plate should be adjusted so it's almost closed when the engine is cold. This is done by loosening the cover plate screws and twisting it. Check for power to the choke and also run a Ohm check on the spring to make sure it's not electrically a "open". |
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gun-driver
Grand Poobah Joined: July-18-2008 Location: Pittsburgh, Pa Status: Offline Points: 4112 |
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The video I posted explains how it works and how to adjust it.
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Slupe
Groupie Joined: February-26-2012 Location: Whitefish Bay Status: Offline Points: 40 |
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Gun-driver - thanks for the repost. I missed it the first time.
Pete - thanks for the info I have also been searching and think I need to place the riser gaskets. There are stains on the outside of the manifolds and I suspect there is some water leaking inside too. The first crank or two are slow and then the motor spins more easily. I saw some posts that this is a sign some water is leaking into the engine and makes it hard to crank. Does this make sense and if so, can it wait till spring or could this lead to an issue over the WI winter. Thanks! Andy |
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Slupe
Groupie Joined: February-26-2012 Location: Whitefish Bay Status: Offline Points: 40 |
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Bumping this back up - specifically around the slow crank on restart. I didn't get any response to this issue.
After some more searching, it sounds like this can be due to timing or distributor advance too. At this point, I just want to make sure it can wait until spring and how to rule out any water issues that would lead to problems over winter. Thanks! |
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Bri892001
Grand Poobah Joined: September-27-2008 Location: Boston MA Status: Offline Points: 4945 |
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This is a little bit of a tough call: --One hand, it sounds like your hard restart issues are most likely caused by carburetor choke problems. A second possibility is overly advanced timing --On the other hand, if you have reason to believe that water is leaking down into the cylinders, you probably don't want to risk leaving it over the winter, especially in an un-heated garage. What you could do, is -pull your spark plugs (taking care to not mix up your spark plug wires) -disable your ignition -crank the starter so the pistons move around a bit. Preferably, have someone else do this so you can shoot a little bit of fogging oil down the spark plug holes as you're doing it. Obviously, don't have a water source hooked up, or you'd just be introducing more water(potentially). |
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