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Can’t repair, so must replace!!

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Nautique2001 View Drop Down
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    Posted: July-07-2005 at 5:50pm
After over a month of trial and error with my high end issue on my 1986 Nautique, the engine is no good. New England Correct Craft fixed the high end issue with a Prestolite EI. It then developed a serious low end problem. A brand new Holley carburetor was installed and it finally quit.

The engine is a PCM, 351 with 595 hours. What happed was that the original carburetor was dumping fuel into the cylinders and mixing with the oil. The oil didn't lubricate properly and caused serious damage to #5 and #6 cylinders. Fuel is flooding into the oil pan and also out the exhaust. There's so much pressure in the crankcase that the dipstick keeps blowing out.

Anyway, NECC is trying to get me a 351 GT-40, 310 HP. I would appreciate any suggestions for replacement engines. I will more than likely be selling the parts off of my 351. If anyone is interested, please let me know.

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David F View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David F Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-07-2005 at 6:39pm
Almost everything can be repaired. It would be cheaper to rebuild your engine than replace it.

Not trying to be a smarta** (just funny), but isn't a carburetor supposed to dump fuel into the cylinders?

Sorry that it ended up the way it did.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GottaSki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-08-2005 at 12:14am
perhaps not enough fuel...

the surge and pop indicated a lean condition, most replies were about fuel delivery. Too lean at ski speeds will frag a piston, or two...if not corrected quickly.
"There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote S.T. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-08-2005 at 12:28am
www.jasperengines.com

TYPE:      MARINE ENGINE
MAKE:      PLEASURECRAFT
YEAR:      1986
MODEL:      5.8L/FORD
LITER:      5.8 LITER V8
ROTATION:      REV
STOCK NUMBER:      745410 CARB COMPLETE

GRAPHITE HEAD GASKETS:Pliable material that does not tear when casting
expand and contract. Graphite gaskets transfer heat evenly and will   
not deteriorate around water passages like Kevlar gaskets do.       
MOLY PISTON RING:Higher durability, reduce cyl. wall wear.            
CHROME PLATED VALVE STEMS:Have better oil retention, improved       
resistance to galling and greater overall durability than conventional
valve stem      

Product summary: 223-250 HP, Firing Order 1-8-4-5-6-2-7-3, Timing Chain, 12 Bolts Holding Intake Manifold to Cylinder Heads, Dipstick in Oil Pan
Block casting: D2AE-BA D4AE-AA
Block casting location: PASSENGER SIDE-AT PAN RAIL
Crank casting: 7M 7MA 3M 3C
Crank casting location: BETWEEN #1 MAIN & #1 ROD JOURNALS
Head casting: D5OE-CA D7OE-DC D8OE-AB
Head casting location: BOTTOM OF HEAD UNDER 2ND INTAKE PORT
FIRING ORDER 18456273, FLYWHEEL TURNS CLOCKWISE HARMONIC BALANCER TURNS COUNTER CLOCKWISE SPECIFY IF ENGINE HAS CAST IRON TIMING COVER COMPLETE ENGINE WILL COME WITH ALUMINUM TIMING COVER AND TIN OIL PAN,IF ORIGINAL ENGINE HAS EITHER A CAST IRON PAN OR TIMING COVER IT IS THE RESPON -SIBILITY OF THE CUSTOMER TO CHANGE ENGINE DISTRIBUTOR GEAR RUNS TOP RIGHT TO LOWER LEFT SPECIFY THE NUMBER OF BOLTS 12-16 HOLDING INTAKE MANIFOLD TO CYLINDER HEADS


THE PRICE IS: $2392.00
SOLD ON AN EXCHANGE BASIS W/JASPER RECEIVING OLD UNIT AS A CORE.
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Nautique2001 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nautique2001 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-08-2005 at 10:51am
Thanks for the responses. It's a tough decision because I'm afraid to put more money into this engine. NECC quoted $7,000 for a fuel injected, high output engine installed. Sounds great but $7,000 is a lot of clams.

So $2,392.00 is for a new engine block, but I have to provide and install some of the parts?

What's involved with re-building my engine? Does anyone know approximate expense and time involved? What's the average life expectancy after a re-build? Sounds like a project and a half, no?

I totally agree that cylinders are a better place for the gas than the crankcase. That should be my new quote.

Thanks - Ken
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David F Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-08-2005 at 12:43pm
Ken:

Jasperengines is selling rebuilt engines (hence wanting your old engine). $2392 seems like a fair price, as it usually costs me about the same to rebuild V8 engines. It would also save you alot of time and trouble. You basically would just have to bolt on all your accessories, wire it up and go.

It looks like Jasper is rebuilding to mild factory specs as I would like to see a HP improvement over what is listed in above post...say 300HP or so.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote skyhawkflyer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-08-2005 at 2:01pm
I'm still trying to picture what happened to your engine. You must have had a lot of fuel in your oil! With that much fuel it must have really been struggling to run. If indeed you had that much fuel in your oil that it trashed #5 & #6 (why not the others???) then you should swap out that engine. If it was making metal then you'll find more suprises when you pull your crank and rod bearing caps.
Seeing how it only trashed 5&6 it makes me tend to think your carb had some sort of problem with the secondaries pouring fuel into the intake. Sorry to hear the bad news.
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Nautique2001 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nautique2001 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-08-2005 at 2:37pm
I really appreciate the replies. I'm completely baffled about what Correct Craft said. They did a "drain down test". They screwed an attachment to where the spark plugs go. Then they blow air into each cylinder to test the integrity of each cylinder. Two cylinders experienced 60% blow-by and caused pressure in the crankcase. Two other cylinders are nearing failure. The other four are about 20%, which I'm told is OK.

With only 595 hours on this well cared for boat, somewhere down the line, the orginal carburetor failed. When I bought it, the problem occurred after an hour worth of use. It would run great, then just stop idling. This is where Correct Craft feels where the problem began. The fuel was either flowing too much, causing it to flow into the crankcase or it ran too lean. Goes to show you how important it is to keep the carburetor running right.

I am leaning towards a rebuilt block. David, does it come with new valves/head? What's the approx. shipping expense from this place to NECC in New Hampshire? Plus, I'd need to send mine to them. I would love to push more HP out of a 351. Is it a high output engine? I'm looking at the time and expense factors. NECC would charge me labor to strip my engine down and bolt on the parts on the new block.

Ken

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nautique2001 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-08-2005 at 2:58pm
I just went on the Jasper website. They look like they know their stuff. I'd have to see how much shipping an engine would be as they don't have any places in New England. Would my current 351 parts bolt right on? If they juice it up to 300 HP, does this effect my stock parts? I have the high performance Holly carb.

I don't want the snow to fly as I'm tightening my last bolt!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nates78ski Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-08-2005 at 3:04pm
The fuel running into the cylinders caused a lack of lubrication of the cylinder walls which caused the piston rings to wear the cylinder walls excessively. The blow by(pressure in the crankcase is caused by the same problem which caused the rings to overheat and loose tension which in turn caused compresion pressure to leak by the rings into the crankcase. A "leak down test" and a compression can verify this. I recommend to my customers that are not mechanicly inclined to replace the Holley carb with a Edelbrock marine carb. Two reasons for this that Holley is worn out & needs to be replaced and if that engine backfires on take off one time the power valve blows out(those not blow out valves are not fool proof) causing rich fuel mixture which leads us to the beginning of the reply. I just rebuilt the 351 in my '78 total, bored .040" over,new pistons, ground the crank, fitted new rods, balanced the components, complete valve & head service to the tune of $1400.00 parts & labor. The Jasper units are a good value. But $7000.00 is a little steep for an older boat. But if you had the money to piss away what the heck that engine is turn key. Good luck.
Nathan
My '78 Ski Nautique

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79nautique View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 79nautique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-08-2005 at 4:24pm
Ken,
If you want a 300+hp engine from Jasper then you need to ask for a class II engine which will run you about $1,200 more or around $3,500 total. It's not really very hard to change you just have to take off what's on your old engine and put on the new long block. Also you will have a 18 month warrenty with the engine as well. As far as the shipping you can go to about any garage in your area that sells jasper engines and you can get the long block sent there and in some cased they will change the block for you, it doesn't have to be a marina to get the marine engines through jasper. Give Jasper a call and ask for Chad at ext 2099. They did have some brand new GT-40 blocks as well.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nautique2001 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-08-2005 at 5:21pm
Can you feel the difference between the 255 HP stock engine and the 300 HP upgrade? Looks good but is it enough difference to spend an extra $1,200? Will that engine fit in my 1986 Nautique? I just want to make sure I can swap out each part and that it will fit. Will it fit my Velvet Drive 1:1 transmission? Do the people at Jasper know about Correct Craft boats? I'd be more than happy to call Chad.

Thanks and keep the suggestions coming. I do plan on keeping the boat another two or three years, so it's worth every cent.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 79nautique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-08-2005 at 5:41pm
The blocks are exactly the same and it makes a hugh difference in performance. All you have to do is check the front timing cover and the oil pan and make sure they are the same as what is on your engine current engine when you recieve it and your good to go. I have a coulpe of friens that have newer nautiques with the 285hp engine and they do not have the trottle response I have on mine 79 nautiuqe and drull every time I let them drive mine.
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Nautique2001 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nautique2001 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-08-2005 at 6:24pm
I just spoke to the service department at NECC. They can get me a rebuilt 351, new manifolds, new paint, tune, install, one year warrantee and delivered in two weeks for $5,500. I will see about increasing the HP. Would anyone ever do this for their Bayliner?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Freddy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-09-2005 at 3:11pm
I would do it for my bayliner- 1987 20' with a 50HP Force outboard. Runs like a champ. Sometimes it can even get on plane if it is not leaking too bad and the wind is to my back.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GottaSki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-09-2005 at 4:57pm
You can buy a 400 hp, 396 full-zoot stroker long block for that scratch, but you still have to install it. Its mostly wrench off-wrench on.
"There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing."

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