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high idle cam? Do you have one?

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gordonw View Drop Down
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    Posted: June-28-2005 at 2:13am
I have no high idle cam on my holly 4160. boat is 1980 with a 351 commander. I bought this carb new about three years ago. I thought it sure would be nice to have one. Any reason why not?
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Jim_In_Houston View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jim_In_Houston Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-28-2005 at 2:36am
Mine does not either.

Here's my take on why a high idle cam is not needed. What follows is based on my experience in industrial drive systems (my source of bread and butter). I think my explaination is pretty close to right.

A car requires relatively high engine torque in order to roll, hence the need for a low geared transmission. A prop requires very little torque at low speed, in fact you can spin the prop by hand. You cannot spin the driveshaft of a car by hand.

In a car a cold engine will not produce needed torque at normal idle speed to overcome the inertia of the car and get the car rolling so higher than normal idle is required to prevent a stall when cold - a high idle cam is needed. When idleing a boat, very low torque is required to turn the prop at low speed. Even when the engine is cold normal idle speed will still turn the prop.

Happy owner of a '66 and a '68 Mustang
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jameski View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jameski Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-28-2005 at 8:54am
Mine doesn't have one either. Jim's theory seems to be correct for mine. I haven't ever really needed one. I've had another theory: If you had a high idle cam with the same set-up as a car, your throttle cable would be put in a bind when you pull your control back to idle. I'm interested to hear other input on this.
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David F View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David F Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-28-2005 at 1:02pm
My carb has the high idle cam and it does not cause a problem with the throttle control. With that said, the carb is an automotive carb that that came with the boat when I bought it in '88. I have marinized the carb as best I can over the years (with the exception of the throttle plate).

I like having the high idle cam as cold starting is a breeze and the engine never quits when backing off the trailer.

My friend asked me to help him tune the engine in his '86 2001 and I was surprised to find that the carb did NOT have a high idle cam. I set the choke a hair richer than I normally would and he reported that it starts well and only occassionly dies when backing off the trailer.
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gordonw View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gordonw Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-28-2005 at 1:21pm
Thanks guys. That's all really good information and well said. I do have a marine carb and will not put one on. ONe other question I have though is that I allways have trouble starting the boat after trailoring. On the water it will start with the first hint of the key with no pump of the throttle. When I get it off the trailor and try to start it, it will turn over and begin to start and then die several times. after that it will crank for a long period and then slowly start sounding very fowled up. Thanks again.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 79nautique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-28-2005 at 4:24pm
your a fool if you are not going to use the marine carb and instead use an automotive carb. You don't need a fast idle cam because you can dis-engage the tranny and move the throttle for high rpm warm-up. Take a litte more time unloading and let the engine warm up before backing up, it takes about 1-2 minutes and your good. If you are ever in a heavy boating area that has knowledgeable officers you will be ticketed and towed if you get got with un-approved marine equipement on your engine.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David F Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-28-2005 at 5:13pm
Thanks for your oppinion. Since I am aware that the carb is not fully marine approved, I take extra precautions and due diligence to ensure that I and others remain safe. With that said, I never recommend non-marine approved equipment for others. Now as for who is foolish...oh never mind!

I chose to not have to fiddle with the throttle once the engine fires to keep it running. Where I load and unload on occasion, 1-2 minutes sitting on your trailer warming up an engine will get you glaring stares.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jim_In_Houston Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-28-2005 at 8:14pm
You can always put a car in neutral and step on the gas for a few minutes to warm up too but they still give you a fast idle cam.
Happy owner of a '66 and a '68 Mustang
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gordonw Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-29-2005 at 1:39pm
Let me get this straight? You all are warming up your boats on the launch ramp for a couple of minutes? I've never seen anyone do this before. Or are you saying to warm the boat up before putting reverse after the boat is in the water. If you are warming it up on the ramp won't the impeller be damaged? Now the question I had before the bickering started was why is the boat hard to start after trailoring? Does the bouncing up and down open and close the needle and seat allowing fuel to enter the engine? Thanks!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jim_In_Houston Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-29-2005 at 3:01pm
gordonw,
Bickering? Nah... you just have to enjoy sincere discussion.
I usually back my boat down a ramp and therefore the water inlet is not in the water when I fire it up. I back off the trailer as soon as the engine fires up so as to get the intake into the water. (There is a pic in the diaries of my '68 being launched.) I idle back to the dock to load up riders. I do not excede about 1500 RPMS until about 1 or 2 minutes after the engine reaches normal operating temp. It's a good question though.

As far as you starting problems, I think your choke is misadjusted. Probably too rich based on your description. Applying heavy throttle forces the choke open no matter how it is adjusted but the fule mixture will be very rich and almost result in a flooded condition. After it stumbles a while the choke heats and opens, the plug fowling burns off, and the engine begins to purr. That's my theory anyway.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote skyhawkflyer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-29-2005 at 5:13pm
It's the choke unloader Jim...... The choke unloader!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jim_In_Houston Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-29-2005 at 5:26pm
Yep. That's what it's called. The trouble is after you have pressed your throttle full forward a couple of times, to "unload" the choke ('cause it is set too rich), you have a plenum full of wet gas from the accel pump and the plugs foul hence the stumbling until things clear out. That's just my theory though. Who knows what's really goin' on? It's still fun to diagnose from a nice cool office instead of from under the hood on a hot summer day! It's sorta like gambling with only your reputation at stake. We need a grading system on how many "corrects" and "incorrects" we all make. Like a quarterback's score. Completed and attempts, that sort of thing.
Happy owner of a '66 and a '68 Mustang
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gordonw Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-29-2005 at 5:31pm
You are all right guys! Too rich is the problem exactly. I'll back it off a hair and see if that improves anything. How about if I leave the key in the on position so that the choke gets power before trying to start it? Never mind I'll just fix the problem. I'm going to start a new post on jet sizes and altitude. Maybe you all can help me out a little bit more therre. Setting of for a three week vacation at the lake. 5000 ft. like is good as a fireman here in Santa Cruz, Ca.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote skyhawkflyer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-30-2005 at 10:42am
Gordonw.
The correct setting for the electric choke is such: on a cold carburator (no electrical for hours) loosen the thermostatic choke cover screws (3) and rotate it to the left or right until the choke butterfly closes fully, but no more for the first intial adjustment. tighten it down and try a start up to see how it reacts. If it's pulling the choke off too soon then you need to adjust it a little more (adjusted the butterfly fully closed and go a little beyond).
Basically it works like this:
When your key is turned on 12 vdc goes to the thermostatic spring heating it up. As it warms it expands, driving your choke open. When power is removed (key off) the spring cools down pulling the chokey closed.
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The choke butterfly was way too tight! Thanks fellas. After it went closed at cold it was nearly 6 settings past that. My accelerator pump had no clearance also. I don't think I ever readjusted it after pulling off the meetering block. So you have to adjust the accel pump linkiage every time the idle is adjusted to get the full stroke out of the pump, right. I tightened the nut on the bolt on the accel pump 5 full turns.   This wll solve the stumble hopefully. At WOT there is still no clearance between the pump arm and base of accel pump. The meetering block is being soaked and I'll install a #25 power valve, idle needles 66 primary jets and see how it idles and accelerates.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jameski Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-01-2005 at 2:38pm
I would recommend a 6.5 power valve. The 2.5 will have your engine running lean.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote skyhawkflyer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-01-2005 at 3:40pm
For your Holley don't use carb cleaner, instead soak it in laquer thinner. The gaskets come off much easier. Use only a plastic scraper if you need to do any scraping. If you don't have one take a plastic knife to a grinder and shape it like a screwdriver-flat on the end, then sharpen. When going back together spray your gaskets with silicone spray. They won't stick nearly as bad as the originals.   Go with the 65 power valve.... it's much better. 6 click on the choke is a lot, mine settled in at 2. 5 turns seems to be a lot for the pump, are you sure this is correct? Do you have a digital camera to send me a pic?
Your accel pump adjustment. What you want is to make sure your pump assembly is not bottoming out at wide open. At wide open you should be able to push your accel pump arm a little further befor it stops. You need to have that little extra room in there for your diaphram otherwise it will tear. And yes idle changes the pump setting, but once your dialed in your dialed in.... If you look at the pump, the arm, your throttle, and the nut, bolt and spring adjustment,.... study this area for a minute. The spring is there for what purpose?
Say you slam your throttle wide open, the accel pump gets a full stroke immediately. All of that fuel cannot flow instantly through the passage to the squirters in the venturi, nor do you want to force it or it will blow the diaphram on the accel pump. The spring is put in there so that when a full stroke of the pump is required and resistance is met (waiting for the fuel to flow through the passages) there is a place that gives yet keeps the pressure on the pump are, making the fuel flow as fast as possible.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote skyhawkflyer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-01-2005 at 4:08pm
What did your old power valve and gasket look like? was the inner portion of the valve cracked (rubber)? If it is fuel can flow thru the valve giving you your rich idle. Same goes for if the valve was loose or the gasket messed up.
To put on a new power valve hold it with the threaded portion pointed up and the gasket centered over it. spin the metering plate on the power valve with your other hand. Doing it this way keeps the gasket centered so you don't have a leak.
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