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454 Big Block yea or neh?

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LongLakeWI View Drop Down
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    Posted: September-07-2021 at 7:21pm
I’m looking at a BFN with the 454 as a v-drive.  Do I pull the trigger on this rig or is the big engine a big fuel suck and nothing else.  I only ski, BF & occasionally pull the kids on the tube but they are outgrowing that (thank God).  No doubt it’s a kick ass rig but I would love some input from those of you who have owned this engine in a D-drive SN or V-drive BFN.

Thanks!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ultrarunner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-07-2021 at 8:13pm
If you're only going to ski and occasional BF and you anticipate kitties getting on some skis I'd probably stay with her direct drive. The Ford and Chevy 351s and 350s I have plenty of power. And the GT 40 is more than enough.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LongLakeWI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-07-2021 at 9:22pm
Thanks for the input ultrarunner!  The kids all ski 3 of 4 slalom ages all 13 yrs and younger.  The v-drive BFN is attractive to me with the rear pylon freeing up the back seat and more space overall than our ‘82 SN.  Plus the BFN just seems bad ass.  It’s not the last boat I will buy but seems like an ok stop off point on the way to newer gt40s in the year 2000 era Nautiques.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 67 ski nat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-07-2021 at 9:30pm
Yes. Yes and yes
I’m afraid to run across a 454 inboard
I’ll take it home.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-08-2021 at 1:43am
Rule of Thumb, no one ever claims they wish they got a smaller engine.  Power is addictive.  These are not race engines, they are just larger with more power all the time.  They idle smooth and act timid till you pour on the coals and then they deliver.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ultrarunner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-08-2021 at 8:01am
I do have to admit, if I find a Sport with the Python, I'll likely grab it!Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GottaSki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-08-2021 at 8:13am
If the kids like to slalom or you enjoy watching them enjoy that, run from that boat because its the fast track to hating slalom skiing. 

That said big blocks are cool because there is something great about going < 100 rpm/ mph .

But i don't think this is your boat, keep looking
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pjsmoreno Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-08-2021 at 8:33am

Nothing sounds like 454 on the water! Especially when cruising on the smooth water at high speed. I really never notice the fuel consumption unless I’m out all day. I just chalk it up as daily maintenance.Thumbs Up

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-08-2021 at 8:38am
I have to agree with Tom… the v-hulls do not lend themselves to any kind of slalom, even beginner/intermediate. As a big block fan and owner, the difference in fuel consumption is substantial- it approaches 2x that of a small block in a comparable boat. In a v-drive configuration, holeshot will not be good with the weight of a 454 in the rear.

The big block barefoot boats are certainly desirable, but unless you’re using them as intended (barefooting), they’re not nearly as versatile or enjoyable as the more common flat bottom small block boats. I would reconsider looking for something more appropriate to your use.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-08-2021 at 8:54am
I agree that isn't a boat for pleasant slalom sking. Big block weight in the tail end in a V-hull doesn't help.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hollywood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-08-2021 at 9:10am
Even the DD barefoot SUCKS for slalom (SB or BB).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 63 Skier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-08-2021 at 2:43pm
I was talked out of a Dominique I was looking at for this same reason, I loved the boat but once people explained that the slalom wake wasn't "less than optimal", it was in fact virtually un-skiable, I looked elsewhere.

Originally posted by ultrarunner ultrarunner wrote:

I do have to admit, if I find a Sport with the Python, I'll likely grab it!Wink


You know, I almost bought one, great test drive, sounded awesome, fast ..... but I ended up looking for and then buying my '98 with GT-40.  The Sport's are sensitive to weight for slalom wake to start with and the heavier engine doesn't help, so it didn't seem to make sense for me.
'63 American Skier - '98 Sport Nautique
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ultrarunner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-08-2021 at 3:04pm
That's so true Skier. I made a point to keep my previous Sport as light as I could when I went out to "ski". Ballast empty, half a tank, and nothing in the rear trunk. That worked pretty well. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jonny Quest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-08-2021 at 3:38pm
Originally posted by LongLakeWI LongLakeWI wrote:

I only ski, BF & occasionally pull the kids on the tube but they are outgrowing that (thank God).

Sounds like my lifestyle...

As stated above, you simply will NOT like to slalom ski behind that BB V-Drive.

My recommendations (you didn't ask, but they are free-of-charge):

Direct Drive Ski Nautique (Sport Nautique would also work)
- TSC hull has a very nice slalom wake (model years 1997 through 2002 for the TSC-1 hull)
- NWZ hull is OK, but not as nice as the TSC-1 hull (model years 1990 to 1996)
- 2001 hull is OK, but not as nice as the NWZ hull (model years 1982 to 1989)

Note: Hulls before 1993 have wooden stringers as Correct Craft went to an "all composite" boat in 1993.

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1994 Ski Nautique Open Bow

Aqua skiing, ergo sum
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-08-2021 at 4:34pm
The No Wood Stringer note is important.  Stringers can rot out and that repair can take months of hard work, pretty much makes a boat worth about 25% value compared to a solid stringer boat.  There are many old boats with wood stringers that are perfectly OK but there are many also out there with rotted stringers.  Do some homework on this one.
You have been given some great advice about boat hulls and ski wakes.  Trying to ski hard behind a boat with a large wake is no fun at all.  Even my 1978 Nautique had a large wake unless you skied deeper than 15 off.  At long line you had a large wake even at 36 MPH.  My 95 wake is much better and not an issue at any rope length.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LongLakeWI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-09-2021 at 3:11pm
Thank you all for the advise!  
After my test ride/drive with the BN-Vdirve yesterday, pretty much all of what was said was spot on.  

1.  The handling is substantially different than a d-drive.  
2.  The POWER and speed was there, wow what torque!  It went to 35 mph with so little effort.
3.  The wake was advertised as well… bigger more rigid (by looks I didn’t ski it)
4.  Damn cool boat.
5. Nice interior layout, not huge but spacious.
6.  In the end I probably would have bought it.  The damn engine blew on the way back to the dock (glad I wasn’t driving)  I felt so bad for the owner, he was the nicest damn guy ever.  There was ZERO chance that this boat wasn’t well maintained.
The search continues!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ultrarunner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-09-2021 at 3:14pm
It blew up??? Like, drop a valve? Spin a bearing? Blown head gasket?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 63 Skier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-09-2021 at 3:33pm
The number of well maintained mild 454's that have mechanical failure with normal on-water driving is extremely low.  They don't tend to have oiling problems, in a stock/mild 454 the stress on everything is just not that great, super reliable engine.

He may have thought/seemed like he maintained it, but I have my doubts.  Maybe that's unfair, %#$@ happens, but just seems like there had to be a maintenance problem.
'63 American Skier - '98 Sport Nautique
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LongLakeWI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-09-2021 at 3:35pm
Don’t know for sure, the owner thought maybe crankshaft broke after initial inspection today. I’m the furthest thing from a mechanic, but the owner certainly knows his stuff.  It was a sad day for a fine boat & machine. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 63 Skier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-09-2021 at 3:41pm
Well the good news is a rebuild or replacement is not too expensive, and a good time to add power if the owner is interested.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote THE HECKLER Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-09-2021 at 4:35pm
just like my 1967 SS396 Chevelle!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-09-2021 at 5:00pm
Maybe the damper plate broke,  they function like a flywheel but also dampen the engine to tranny connection with springs.  They are known to fail on any boat with this type tranny.  It can sound a lot like major engine failure. but the engine still runs fine, just noisy?  Not sure what you saw.  The damper is a wear item.  How many hours were on this boat.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GottaSki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-09-2021 at 7:16pm
Too bad, yes hopefully the damper.
Boat's better for wakesports.
Was behind one at a barefoot endurance tournament, at 36 mph wanted to get back into the wake, but gave up, needed a stepladder. It looked knee high.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wayoutthere Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-09-2021 at 9:37pm
Originally posted by MrMcD MrMcD wrote:

Even my 1978 Nautique had a large wake unless you skied deeper than 15 off.  At long line you had a large wake even at 36 MPH.  My 95 wake is much better and not an issue at any rope length.

Could you explain the terminology  "deeper than 15 off"    i know what 15 off is and by the next sentance "at long line", i'm thinking by deeper you mean closer to the boat ? 

As to the big block, my other boat has a mercruiser 496 mag ho, it's a standard bore 454 but stroked to 496, fuel injected 8 coils, 425 hp  500 torq, the boat wiggles on the trailer at idle and torq rolls a little bit in the water at start up. all kinds of cool but It burns 36 gallons an hour @ 5100 rpms.

i see the v drive barefoot being cool like that too and maybe not to many made or left, hope it's just the dampener.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-09-2021 at 10:55pm
Sorry, I assumed when maybe an explanation was needed.  Long Line in Water Skiing is standard 75 ft rope.  Barefooters sometimes use 100’ but waterskiers use 75’.   15’ off is the first take off length to shorten the 75’ foot rope.  Deeper refers to very short lengths,  So 22 off, 28 off etc, I think the current ski record for the course is 41.5 off but maybe I am out of date.   If you are making the course at 15 off and go deeper you are jumping to 22 off, I think is the next jump shorter.  As a recreational skier I never made it past 28 off 6 balls at 36 MPH so that leaves me in the non competitive group.  The older Nautique had better wakes the shorter the rope was.  The barefoot Nautique was designed for strong pull at faster speeds with footers but has a no so good ski wake.  As your skiing improves in the ski course you shorten the rope to increase the difficulty.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LongLakeWI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-10-2021 at 12:06pm
There was a loud thud/thump like you hit a log or something.  The engine lost all power and wouldn’t run or restart.  There was a fair amount of oil & water in the bilge.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-10-2021 at 12:40pm
Originally posted by LongLakeWI LongLakeWI wrote:

There was a loud thud/thump like you hit a log or something.  The engine lost all power and wouldn’t run or restart.  There was a fair amount of oil & water in the bilge.

Must be a damper plate oil leak Wink

I figure that all the connecting rods probably don't look the same anymore as a guess
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-10-2021 at 1:16pm
Those items seem to mean that engine is Toast.  Sorry.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Faceplant Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-10-2021 at 9:08pm
Feel bad for the owner of the boat but consider yourself lucky on this one.
Feels like I am hanging 10 but in reality - probably hanging 6.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GottaSki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-11-2021 at 8:30am
Would take some work, but a 6L or 6.2ls3 from a boneyard could go nicely into that and maybe reform it's deficiencies
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