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Competition Barefoot Boats, Non CC

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kapla Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-20-2013 at 1:15am
maybe you are right and it was 47...it slided nicely...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GlassSeeker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-20-2013 at 1:30am
It would have felt more "solid" than say 43

I gotta say your pop in to the sideslide looks badazz! I did not see any up weight, you just turned em and burned em!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kapla Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-20-2013 at 1:36am
little more practice and I think i´ll get the show foot completely perpendicular to the boat..lol
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GlassSeeker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-20-2013 at 1:49am
I know you know where it's sposed to be- LOL...It's close enough, it will be perp when you go out longline with it just because of the angle of the pull. It took me a few summers to learn it really well, like 5.
You are moving pretty fast really. You are improving it all the time, some days may not seem like it but as long as you continue to focus on doing it the best you can it will get better.

barefooting is 90% mental.

Think about turning it 110 degrees, so past 90. It's darn near skiing backwards.---In fact it is.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GlassSeeker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-20-2013 at 1:54am
Willie still can't get his show foot sideways
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tbeard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-20-2013 at 2:11am
Andy great input on the Sanger and footing behind them. I still love the boats for footing.
Yes I agree wake slalom is a blast but you have to have the right wake if you are going to get agressive. My old ski friend had a Barefoot Supreme and the wake was un-crossable. We had a name for it that I cannot say on this site but it was BAD. Thanks for the education.

With the exception of getting air on Back Wakes off my BFN table I still like the boat overall....Good curl for tricks, flat table, excellent ride and you can foot behind it in rough water. Yes I know....I am old school.   
Thanks.......Tom
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GlassSeeker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-20-2013 at 2:16am
I will never ever forget my first barefoot tournament, Oakland estuary, wind blowing hard, whitecaps, a Barefoot Nautique knocking a hole through the waves leading the next Barefoot Nautique towing us sorry competitors. Probably is why I go by GlassSeeker!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GlassSeeker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-20-2013 at 2:27am
I have a lot of vhs tape of some hilacious wipeouts off the BFN wake backwards, and forwards. Try to keep the foot on edge all the way thru the wake and some to be sure. If you can slice it it's not quite as much of a dropoff.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GlassSeeker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-20-2013 at 2:39am
Kap try to "drift" your sideslide on the boom, cut away and then cut back and pop in to sideslide with a drift towards the boat and then let it drift you back out.

Like so, I do it a few times in here


   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GlassSeeker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-20-2013 at 2:45am
Steve Merritt's wake turns off of the BFN wake are something to behold. His training video is awesome and it's CC BFN all the way.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote peter1234 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-20-2013 at 11:10am
Originally posted by GlassSeeker GlassSeeker wrote:



I gotta say your pop in to the sideslide looks badazz! I did not see any up weight, you just turned em and burned em!

I hope if they ever do a smokey and the bandit remake you play truck drivin jerry reed.
former skylark owner now a formula but I cant let this place go
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GlassSeeker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-20-2013 at 4:02pm
looks like we got us a convoy
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote phatsat67 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-20-2013 at 4:03pm
96 miles an hour? I didn't know this truck would run 96 miles an hour!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-20-2013 at 4:37pm
Originally posted by GlassSeeker GlassSeeker wrote:

If you don't have 9 mins skip to 3:00


I just had the chance to watch this. Theres a healthy amount of marketing spin in there, IMHO. "Wood that will never rot"... now thats a new one. "These stringers are composite, they just have a wood core"... oh boy, thats a stretch. By that definition, CC has been putting composite stringers in their boats since 1961.

While theres nothing inherently wrong with wood stringers, claiming that there is no better way to build a boat is really pushing it. Being a low volume manufacturer, it seems pretty obvious to me that Sanger chose to use better "cheap" core materials (wood) and a fairly high level of craftsmanship in order to build a high quality boat, rather than invest a considerable amount of money in extra molds for a truly composite stringer and floor system. Nothing wrong with that. A high strength composite sheet material like Coosa or Airex would be a suitable replacement for wood in terms of strength, and would only require minor process changes. I would consider that to be a "better" way to build a boat than what theyre currently doing. The downside is obviously cost. Wood may be "good enough" but I guess that doesnt make for a very convincing marketing video.

There are definitely some design choices that are different when comparing a manufacturers like Sanger and CC... the role of foam, stringer core material, etc. One is not necessarily "better" than the other. For instance, while a wood core is obviously stronger than a foam core, when considering the entire stringer (with glass over it), they can end up with the same strength if a heavier glass schedule is used over the foam. Notice that the guy in the video doesnt say that Sanger's stringers are stronger- just that wood is a stronger core material than foam (or hollow). Well, duh.

A few other interesting tidbits that I noticed from the video:
1. Primary stringers appear to be LVL (microlam)
2. Secondary stringers appear to be (treated?) ply, same with the front floor section shown.
3. Stringers seem to stop short of the transom, not sure why.
4. Method for installing the stringer systems looks to be as rudimentary as all of the home rebuilds documented on CCF... some clamps installed by hand and some weights thrown on top! (ref 5:00)

Anyways, its really cool to see the process that other manufacturers use to build their boats- so thanks for posting. Its unlikely we'd see comparable pictures or videos coming from the big 3 (CC/MC/Bu), as they seem to hold their construction process pretty close to the vest. One of my favorite parts of going to the boat show every year is climbing in competing brands and trying to figure out how they are put together.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GlassSeeker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-20-2013 at 4:46pm
I'll just let this percolate for a while
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote phatsat67 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-20-2013 at 4:47pm
Tim, I would say most of the guys on the site do a more through job by means of fit and finish when done!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Swatkinz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-20-2013 at 8:35pm
Originally posted by TRBenj TRBenj wrote:

Originally posted by GlassSeeker GlassSeeker wrote:

If you don't have 9 mins skip to 3:00


I just had the chance to watch this. Theres a healthy amount of marketing spin in there, IMHO. "Wood that will never rot"... now thats a new one. "These stringers are composite, they just have a wood core"... oh boy, thats a stretch. By that definition, CC has been putting composite stringers in their boats since 1961.

While theres nothing inherently wrong with wood stringers, claiming that there is no better way to build a boat is really pushing it. Being a low volume manufacturer, it seems pretty obvious to me that Sanger chose to use better "cheap" core materials (wood) and a fairly high level of craftsmanship in order to build a high quality boat, rather than invest a considerable amount of money in extra molds for a truly composite stringer and floor system. Nothing wrong with that. A high strength composite sheet material like Coosa or Airex would be a suitable replacement for wood in terms of strength, and would only require minor process changes. I would consider that to be a "better" way to build a boat than what theyre currently doing. The downside is obviously cost. Wood may be "good enough" but I guess that doesnt make for a very convincing marketing video.

There are definitely some design choices that are different when comparing a manufacturers like Sanger and CC... the role of foam, stringer core material, etc. One is not necessarily "better" than the other. For instance, while a wood core is obviously stronger than a foam core, when considering the entire stringer (with glass over it), they can end up with the same strength if a heavier glass schedule is used over the foam. Notice that the guy in the video doesnt say that Sanger's stringers are stronger- just that wood is a stronger core material than foam (or hollow). Well, duh.

A few other interesting tidbits that I noticed from the video:
1. Primary stringers appear to be LVL (microlam)
2. Secondary stringers appear to be (treated?) ply, same with the front floor section shown.
3. Stringers seem to stop short of the transom, not sure why.
4. Method for installing the stringer systems looks to be as rudimentary as all of the home rebuilds documented on CCF... some clamps installed by hand and some weights thrown on top! (ref 5:00)

Anyways, its really cool to see the process that other manufacturers use to build their boats- so thanks for posting. Its unlikely we'd see comparable pictures or videos coming from the big 3 (CC/MC/Bu), as they seem to hold their construction process pretty close to the vest. One of my favorite parts of going to the boat show every year is climbing in competing brands and trying to figure out how they are put together.


"the guy" is Scott Pellaton right? The world record holder for fastest barefooter?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Swatkinz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-20-2013 at 8:43pm
Originally posted by Swatkinz Swatkinz wrote:

Originally posted by TRBenj TRBenj wrote:

Originally posted by GlassSeeker GlassSeeker wrote:

If you don't have 9 mins skip to 3:00


I just had the chance to watch this. Theres a healthy amount of marketing spin in there, IMHO. "Wood that will never rot"... now thats a new one. "These stringers are composite, they just have a wood core"... oh boy, thats a stretch. By that definition, CC has been putting composite stringers in their boats since 1961.

While theres nothing inherently wrong with wood stringers, claiming that there is no better way to build a boat is really pushing it. Being a low volume manufacturer, it seems pretty obvious to me that Sanger chose to use better "cheap" core materials (wood) and a fairly high level of craftsmanship in order to build a high quality boat, rather than invest a considerable amount of money in extra molds for a truly composite stringer and floor system. Nothing wrong with that. A high strength composite sheet material like Coosa or Airex would be a suitable replacement for wood in terms of strength, and would only require minor process changes. I would consider that to be a "better" way to build a boat than what theyre currently doing. The downside is obviously cost. Wood may be "good enough" but I guess that doesnt make for a very convincing marketing video.

There are definitely some design choices that are different when comparing a manufacturers like Sanger and CC... the role of foam, stringer core material, etc. One is not necessarily "better" than the other. For instance, while a wood core is obviously stronger than a foam core, when considering the entire stringer (with glass over it), they can end up with the same strength if a heavier glass schedule is used over the foam. Notice that the guy in the video doesnt say that Sanger's stringers are stronger- just that wood is a stronger core material than foam (or hollow). Well, duh.

A few other interesting tidbits that I noticed from the video:
1. Primary stringers appear to be LVL (microlam)
2. Secondary stringers appear to be (treated?) ply, same with the front floor section shown.
3. Stringers seem to stop short of the transom, not sure why.
4. Method for installing the stringer systems looks to be as rudimentary as all of the home rebuilds documented on CCF... some clamps installed by hand and some weights thrown on top! (ref 5:00)

Anyways, its really cool to see the process that other manufacturers use to build their boats- so thanks for posting. Its unlikely we'd see comparable pictures or videos coming from the big 3 (CC/MC/Bu), as they seem to hold their construction process pretty close to the vest. One of my favorite parts of going to the boat show every year is climbing in competing brands and trying to figure out how they are put together.


"the guy" is Scott Pellaton right? The world record holder for fastest barefooter?


Could there be any truth to his statement that...."This wood cannot rot?" He references, the chemical treatment of the wood, the layers of glue..yadda, yadda. Does non-rotting wood exist? TRBENJ, you mentioned the use of Coosa in leiu of wood. You also referenced the cost prohibitive aspect of Coosa vs. wood. It would seem that given the entire cost of the boat, the cost difference of Coosa in the stringers would not drastically impact the cost of the boat. Unless the cost of Coosa is 50x what wood costs, it seems that there's not that much wood in a stringer system.

Regardless of Sanger's logic and the arguments of wood vs. composite, I like the look of Sangers' alot, especially the later boats with the one piece curved windshield.
Steve
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Swatkinz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-20-2013 at 8:47pm
Originally posted by GlassSeeker GlassSeeker wrote:

The big blocks are OK but in competition the 5 people plus the extra 200lbs of fat engine gave the wake a hump across the table so it has been determined that the small block with 400+hp is the way to go.

The new LS series small blocks are supplied by Indmar and being all aluminum they are about 200 lbs lighter than a SBC.


"Ski Sanger" is really generic advertising and does not refer to a specific model, It is common to hear people say I've got a Ski Sanger and if you ask them the model they think it's Ski Sanger. Most of the people who have them don't know the model they own. Seriously.

And just because it says "Barefooter" on the side does not mean it's the DXII...Some DLX's (open bow inboard) got the plate and the sticker but it's not the DXII barefoot wake, close but not as good.





Interesting that you point this out, b/c he told me that his rationale for going with the PCM was b/c he wanted to tournament load it for practice and felt he needed the additional power to achieve this. I could be wrong on this, but I believe he told me that the boat would easily pull a footer well into the 50+ range.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Swatkinz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-20-2013 at 8:48pm
Originally posted by Swatkinz Swatkinz wrote:

Originally posted by GlassSeeker GlassSeeker wrote:

The big blocks are OK but in competition the 5 people plus the extra 200lbs of fat engine gave the wake a hump across the table so it has been determined that the small block with 400+hp is the way to go.

The new LS series small blocks are supplied by Indmar and being all aluminum they are about 200 lbs lighter than a SBC.


"Ski Sanger" is really generic advertising and does not refer to a specific model, It is common to hear people say I've got a Ski Sanger and if you ask them the model they think it's Ski Sanger. Most of the people who have them don't know the model they own. Seriously.

And just because it says "Barefooter" on the side does not mean it's the DXII...Some DLX's (open bow inboard) got the plate and the sticker but it's not the DXII barefoot wake, close but not as good.





Interesting that you point this out, b/c he told me that his rationale for going with the BB PCM was b/c he wanted to tournament load it for practice and felt he needed the additional power to achieve this. I could be wrong on this, but I believe he told me that the boat would easily pull a footer well into the 50+ range.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-20-2013 at 9:09pm
Originally posted by Swatkinz Swatkinz wrote:


Could there be any truth to his statement that...."This wood cannot rot?" He references, the chemical treatment of the wood, the layers of glue..yadda, yadda. Does non-rotting wood exist? TRBENJ, you mentioned the use of Coosa in leiu of wood. You also referenced the cost prohibitive aspect of Coosa vs. wood. It would seem that given the entire cost of the boat, the cost difference of Coosa in the stringers would not drastically impact the cost of the boat. Unless the cost of Coosa is 50x what wood costs, it seems that there's not that much wood in a stringer system.

I'll let someone smarter than me (like Pete) answer the wood question. I have not heard of "impossible to rot wood", though there are things you can do to make it less susceptible (like CPES). My guess is that he's simply referring to regular pressure treated wood (treated to be weather resistant) and LVL (which uses waterproof glue to hold the layers together). I know Tige is (or was) building their stringers with treated lumber.

As far as cost goes, the materials used to build a hull are not that expensive. A few grand maybe? I would imagine that their profit margin has to be pretty high though- how many people does the company employ, and how much does it cost to run that factory? They only build 400 boats a year in order to recoup their costs (or make a profit). Every little bit of cost they can trim from the boat goes back in their pockets... and if they think wood is good enough, then theyre not going to spend 5x the amount on a composite stringer and floor core. Foam, glass and resin, on the other hand, are relatively cheap... so once you get past the initial cost of building a mold for the stringer system, its not that expensive to do away with the wood entirely. Heck, its probably cheaper! Thats probably why CC/MC/Bu have hollow or foam filled stringers. Their production numbers are higher than Sanger, so they can spread the mold costs over more units. Different business models, but both make sense.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GlassSeeker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-20-2013 at 9:54pm
Yes it's Scott 135mph Pellaton, he's the national sales manager for Sanger Boats
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GlassSeeker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-21-2013 at 7:11pm
The DXII mold has not changed in 20 years still doing it the same way.

Sanger Boats is family owned and over 59 years old and many people have been with them as long as 35 years. Many 20-25 years. They know what they are doing.

The Aquabeam came in mid 90's and lifetime hull warranty in about 99 or so.

So are you guys saying wood is no good?

I'm glad my Sanger has wood stingers because it rides so smooth and quiet and solid, slam it over the waves it doesn't shake or rattle, it slices, it dices.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hollywood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-21-2013 at 8:13pm
Steve you doubled the length of this thread in just 4 posts.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-21-2013 at 8:46pm
Originally posted by GlassSeeker GlassSeeker wrote:


So are you guys saying wood is no good?

I'm glad my Sanger has wood stingers because it rides so smooth and quiet and solid, slam it over the waves it doesn't shake or rattle, it slices, it dices.

Wood is usually "good enough"... Heck, all pre 93 cc's are built that way. It's certainly not the be-all end-all of materials though.

You don't need wood to make a solid boat. You don't need foam either. Come for a ride in joes 83 or my bfn and it'll be obvious real quick!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GlassSeeker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-21-2013 at 10:17pm
Wood works just fine.
No foam in a Sanger.

Sanger's reputation rides on it's solid hulls (and perfect barefoot wake)

They are the only mfgr that I get the same "feel" that the old 85 BFN had.

Your boats are coosa? I'm curious about how it compares on the water to an original boat? can you tell a difference?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Swatkinz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-21-2013 at 11:35pm
Originally posted by Hollywood Hollywood wrote:

Steve you doubled the length of this thread in just 4 posts.


Sorry HW, things tend to get longer when I get excited.

cool thread, eh?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GlassSeeker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-22-2013 at 12:18am
Steve you mentioned your friends big block and those do work and they are fast.

The downside is loss of space in the boat, higher weird shaped engine cover, and under tournament conditions, fully loaded 5 people, the extra weight of the big block(~200lbs) the wake humped up more than was desired.

As a boat to own and train with the extra weight helps to fill in for 1 person. When the boat is not fully loaded you can't tell any difference in the wake.

It's all about the total weight that's loaded into the hull.
At a certain point it humps the wake up more than a small block does.

A fully loaded small block of the high horsepower variety allows the smaller engine cover, more room in the boat, super nimble when its not fully loaded and very nimble when it is.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GlassSeeker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-22-2013 at 12:33am
Here's a 6L PCM

This is the life
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Swatkinz View Drop Down
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Location: Lexington, SC
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Swatkinz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-22-2013 at 12:36am
I could've misspoken. Is a 6L a BB? I'm fairly certain that's what this guy has. His idea was to get more HP with this engine upgrade and then load the boat with fat sacs to tournament load to mimic tourney wake and table. I don't think he had to use a different motorbox or modify the original in any way. Greg Fosset would know as he's driven this boat for the New Years day BF challenge.
Steve
2011 Sport/Air 200
Excalibur 343
2017 Boatmate Tandem Axle Trailer

Former CC owner (77, 80, 95, 88, all SNs)

Former Malibu owner (07, 09)
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