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Competition Barefoot Boats, Non CC

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Forum Discription: Anything non-Correct Craft
URL: http://www.CorrectCraftFan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=29255
Printed Date: April-24-2024 at 11:39pm


Topic: Competition Barefoot Boats, Non CC
Posted By: GlassSeeker
Subject: Competition Barefoot Boats, Non CC
Date Posted: March-17-2013 at 8:49pm







U.S. Competition Barefooting has seen many boat changes through the years, inboards, outboards, i/o's from a few different mfrs. Since the time the BFN was at the top of the heap(80's), We saw Centurion, Flightcraft and Malibu and Sanger outboards. Then it swung back to inboards and Malibu and Sanger and Gekko. Currently Sanger is the only boat company buiding a competition barefoot boat in the U.S.


    Year(s) Approved Boat Company Model
93-94 Brendella Barefooter
88 Centurion Outboard
79-92 Correct Craft Barefoot Nautique
86-89 Fineline/Ski Centurion Barefoot Warrior O/B 200hp
90 Fineline/Ski Centurion Falcon Barefoot
84 Fineline/Ski Centurion Ski Centurion
94-95 Fineline/Ski Centurion Warrior Barefoot Comp
89 Flightcraft 18XL Outboard
87-89 Flightcraft Flightcraft
02-06 Gekko GTR 22
85 Glastron Ski Machine O/B 150hp
85-86 Hydrodyne O/B 150hp,235hp
84 Hydrodyne O/B 150hp Johnson
84 Hydrodyne O/B 150hp Mercury
90-92 Malibu Flightcraft 18XLT
90-99 Malibu Flightcraft 20XLOBT/Barefooter
02-04 Malibu Response Barefooter
03-07 Malibu Response LXi
06 Malibu Response LXi 383
08 Malibu Response LX 383
91-99 MasterCraft Barefoot 200
92-93 Moore Marine Ski Pro 2000 Footer
94-97 Moore Marine Ski Pro Footer EX I/O
85-87 Moore Marine Ski Pro I/O
02-04 Moore Marine Ski Pro Extreme Comp Barefooter
98-10 Sanger DXII Barefooter 5.8L, 6.2L 340 hp or 380 hp HO, 8.1 L 370 or 420 hp
87-97 Sanger Barefoot O/B
92-94 Sanger Ski Sanger DXII
87 Sanger Sanger TX
Not listed
1999 or 2000 MasterCraft Powerstar O/B 200HP



Sanger has a hull design that is shared by the DXII and the Outboard called the Delta Pad, a triangular flat at the transom extending forward all the way to the tracking fins(This from Sangers Flat bottom racing heritage).

Most people don't know about Sanger DX's, SX's, they are the inboard cousin to the outboard from 87 on. Sharing hull design characteristics. The DXII has a different top deck which has the one pc curved windshield, the DX/SX's have a split flat windshield with the DX having teak on the bow and one gelcoat design and the SX having no teak, and a different gelcoat design.


A 72 Sanger V drive


A 66 Sanger, Sanger is a true custom boat builder it is very rare to see two Sangers that are identical due to the factory customization. If you want it they will build it.


A 94 SX


All white SX, tan interior




Clean choice


So it should be noted that the SX and DX have the same exact hull, then comes DXII the new topdeck/one pc curved windshield and some very minor tweaks to the hull, shortening two of the lifting strakes by about a foot which I've been told was to improve the barefoot wake.

The DXII hull remains unchanged since 1992, yes 1992!







So if a footer has been bitten by the footing bug and wants a great barefoot boat but maybe cant buy a brand new boat...there are so many eligible Sanger DX, SX, DXII's available and all one has to do is some engine upgrades and add a fixed cavitation plate aka barefoot plate to the transom and you have the best wake on the planet for barefooting.

I built one using a 1990 DX because I liked it's older style and THE TEAK!

It's been through many transformations, I don't have any qualms about originality(except for a few things!), or drilling holes, or hiding them later, LOL.

here's how it looked when I got it.



putting a plate on





If anybody is interested I'll add some more.

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This is the life



Replies:
Posted By: peter1234
Date Posted: March-17-2013 at 9:15pm
very interested


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former skylark owner now a formula but I cant let this place go


Posted By: GlassSeeker
Date Posted: March-17-2013 at 9:50pm
I went right to changing and upgrading things, the merc 260 horse would pull us about 44 max and I ran it hard for a few years until water turned up in the oil. I wanted a new engine so bad I pretty much tried to blow the 260hp up   






It got a tower and a super flyhigh(tower extension) for a while





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This is the life


Posted By: GlassSeeker
Date Posted: March-17-2013 at 10:09pm








One of the nice new ones out there











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This is the life


Posted By: SN206
Date Posted: March-17-2013 at 10:20pm
Loved that black one since they rolled it out. Love that I'm not having to keep it clean even more.

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...those who have fallen and those who will.


Posted By: kapla
Date Posted: March-18-2013 at 1:09am
Very interesting pkst andy...
Makes wanna have one of those!


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<a href="">1992 ski nautique


Posted By: LaurelLakeSkier
Date Posted: March-18-2013 at 1:39am
Very interesting post Andy! How much difference is there in the old DX hull and its wake from the current DXII? Did adding the plate to your DX give a wake/table close to what the DXII produces?

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The world is full of youth—what we need is a fountain of smart!


Posted By: GlassSeeker
Date Posted: March-18-2013 at 2:18am
very good question.

The DX hull is basically the Outboard hull with an inboard engine.
(Not exactly in dimensions but close)

As far as I know no one else had put a plate on one before I did. The plate had only ever been on DXII's outfitted as Barefooter's.

I put the Merc 383 Stroker in and we have skied it pretty hard with Willie saying that the wake was "too easy". One thing I have not done yet it ski it with 5 people in boat(tournament load) which humps the wake up a little in the middle.

I think it's very very much the same as the DXII wake. When I'm skiing I really can't tell the difference.


here is the wake, I've got lots of video of DXII and my DX wakes to compare.







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This is the life


Posted By: GlassSeeker
Date Posted: March-18-2013 at 2:42am
some other things to note

Some DXII's did get the plate but were not offically barefoot pkg boats, once again Sanger will add or delete whatever a buyer wants.

The wake without the plate on the DX or DXII is just OK/decent but nothing to brag about. Both are AWSA approved without the plate. Since the DX was during the time of the Outboards being used in comps nobody ever put a plate on a DX/SX, the DXII earned it's AWSA/ABC ratings with a plate on.
The plate makes an amazing difference in the wake.





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This is the life


Posted By: Swatkinz
Date Posted: March-18-2013 at 2:30pm
Cool thread. A hardcore footer on my lake has a DXII Barefooter with tower and SFH. He ditched the Merc for some sort of big block PCM a couple of years ago. My second favorite brand and I'm glad b/c there aren't many over here on the east coast to choose from.

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Steve
2011 Sport/Air 200
Excalibur 343
2017 Boatmate Tandem Axle Trailer

Former CC owner (77, 80, 95, 88, all SNs)

Former Malibu owner (07, 09)


Posted By: Hansel
Date Posted: March-18-2013 at 2:59pm
Cool thread Andy, thanks.

There are two "Ski Sangers" on our lake, a blue and a red one. Once it stops snowing and the ice melts I'm definitely going to be taking a close look at them to see exactly what is going on. I'm pretty sure both have the flat split windshield, and they may both have teak... but not sure.


Posted By: GlassSeeker
Date Posted: March-18-2013 at 3:58pm
The big blocks are OK but in competition the 5 people plus the extra 200lbs of fat engine gave the wake a hump across the table so it has been determined that the small block with 400+hp is the way to go.

The new LS series small blocks are supplied by Indmar and being all aluminum they are about 200 lbs lighter than a SBC.


"Ski Sanger" is really generic advertising and does not refer to a specific model, It is common to hear people say I've got a Ski Sanger and if you ask them the model they think it's Ski Sanger. Most of the people who have them don't know the model they own. Seriously.

And just because it says "Barefooter" on the side does not mean it's the DXII...Some DLX's (open bow inboard) got the plate and the sticker but it's not the DXII barefoot wake, close but not as good.





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This is the life


Posted By: GlassSeeker
Date Posted: March-18-2013 at 4:08pm
Here is KSO skiing my old DXII 2001 Super Scorpion 377, then me, then Willie behind the Malibu.






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This is the life


Posted By: phatsat67
Date Posted: March-18-2013 at 4:29pm
No boom required!!

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Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: March-18-2013 at 4:49pm
Originally posted by GlassSeeker GlassSeeker wrote:

The new LS series small blocks are supplied by Indmar and being all aluminum they are about 200 lbs lighter than a SBC.

Which LS motors are they using that are all aluminum? The 6.2L maybe?

I believe all the 6.0L marine engines are iron block/aluminum heads.

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Posted By: Hansel
Date Posted: March-18-2013 at 5:07pm
I always thought that "Ski Sanger" was the model until reading your posts. Makes me much more curious about what is going on with those things.

Neither one gets a lot of use, and I've never seen somebody ski or foot behind them. Only wakeboarding and most often tubing.


Posted By: GlassSeeker
Date Posted: March-18-2013 at 5:24pm
oops guess I read too much about the 6.2 LSA, That is my dream Barefoot Boat engine. yes the 6.0 is cast iron block, the LSA goes to the all alum. and gets 550hp out of a small block.

Looks like within the LS series there are both cast iron and alum blocks available.

I have a friend who just ordered a new 2013 Sanger DXII Barefooter with the 6.0 409hp, I could not talk him into getting the LSA try though I might.

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This is the life


Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: March-18-2013 at 5:29pm
Originally posted by GlassSeeker GlassSeeker wrote:

oops guess I read too much about the 6.2 LSA, That is my dream Barefoot Boat engine. yes the 6.0 is cast iron block, the LSA goes to the all alum. and gets 550hp out of a small block.

Looks like within the LS series there are both cast iron and alum blocks available.

I have a friend who just ordered a new 2013 Sanger DXII Barefooter with the 6.0 409hp, I could not talk him into getting the LSA try though I might.

To clarify, I believe LSA = supercharged 6.2L, which puts out 550hp. The naturally aspirated version of the 6.2L is the LS3 and I believe its usually rated around 450hp.

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Posted By: GlassSeeker
Date Posted: March-18-2013 at 5:31pm
Sangers are great tubing boats

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This is the life


Posted By: GlassSeeker
Date Posted: March-18-2013 at 5:34pm
Honestly I am drooling over the LSA

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This is the life


Posted By: kapla
Date Posted: March-18-2013 at 6:07pm
Originally posted by GlassSeeker GlassSeeker wrote:


I have a friend who just ordered a new 2013 Sanger DXII Barefooter with the 6.0 409hp, I could not talk him into getting the LSA try though I might.


andy whats the going price on that package if I may ask?

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<a href="">1992 ski nautique


Posted By: Hollywood
Date Posted: March-18-2013 at 6:30pm
**Looove me some Sangers.

The one and only Sanger dealership in Wisconsin has been affiliated with Aquanut Water Shows. I think they started selling them here around 97/98. We are lucky to have a relatively large population of them in my area. At one time we used them as show boats. These are the juniors practicing.


I've never heard of these as SX before, always seen it as SE.


And they've all had a swirl interior like a mid-00 Correct Craft, not pleats.


92-94 DX was available with the more modern, DXII gelcoat scheme.



I think shortening of the lifting strakes was a change for the 91 model year and probably carried forward for all "delta pad" hulls.



I've seen enough to believe you could opt out of the bow teak, though the vast majority have them.



These TXs are wicked fast and BKH can probably share more as he's driven one for his ski racer friend.


If all you are implying is the Delta Pad is the name of the concept of the hull keel, well then the DLX and VLX have that too. Surely their hulls are a tad bit different including length, but close enough. I've never either with the plate, nice to know some have gone ahead and made an open bow "Barefooter" though. The 89-92 Sport Nautique also has similar hull design.


**Disclaimer - I cannot prove any of this information to be factory original.



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Posted By: GlassSeeker
Date Posted: March-18-2013 at 7:31pm
Yes HW, I mean't SE not SX. There is no SX. I've been told that SE was Special Edition but don't know that to be fact. Those TX's are fast that's what I footed behind at 59mph an 86 TX, the first one Sanger ever made. Wake is no DXII though.

Kap, I think it was just over 50k, thats why I like to build my own.

In fact, talking with Scott Pellaton, he said he would just get an older DXII and build a motor for it, and go carbed, get rid of the complications caused by EFI since it's really not necessary to going fast.



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This is the life


Posted By: GlassSeeker
Date Posted: March-18-2013 at 8:53pm
Got you Ford guys covered too...a rare 351

http://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/boa/3655996814.html" rel="nofollow - Sanger 351 Indmar

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This is the life


Posted By: Tim D
Date Posted: March-18-2013 at 10:55pm
In the first pic, the guy on the left is the driver, right? That's more stupid than the ghost surfing.

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Tim D


Posted By: GlassSeeker
Date Posted: March-18-2013 at 11:06pm
Guys have been doing that or faking it for years, I still do not have an answer to the questions.

I do not recommend doing it or faking it. Only the very stupid should attempt such a feat.

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This is the life


Posted By: LaurelLakeSkier
Date Posted: March-19-2013 at 12:39am
Originally posted by GlassSeeker GlassSeeker wrote:

Got you Ford guys covered too...a rare 351

http://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/boa/3655996814.html" rel="nofollow - Sanger 351 Indmar


Looks like it could be a good deal on the start of a project....the 4300 mile round trip doesn't sound so good though.

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The world is full of youth—what we need is a fountain of smart!


Posted By: GlassSeeker
Date Posted: March-19-2013 at 1:31am
It's a beautiful country, It's spring, temps are headed to the 80's here, you could ski all along the way back home.

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This is the life


Posted By: lewy2001
Date Posted: March-19-2013 at 9:00am
Andy I always thought The Malibu Sportster was the best barefoot boat in their range. It does not appear in that approved boat list at all.

Are they a good barefoot boat??

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If you're going through hell, keep going

http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2999" rel="nofollow - 89 Ski

<a href="http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=5685" ta


Posted By: Swatkinz
Date Posted: March-19-2013 at 10:02am
Didn't Mastercraft make an outboard barefooter back in the 87-88 time frame? Also, what of the Mastercraft Tristar based barefooter 190?   Were none of these boats "approved" barefoot boats of the day?

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Steve
2011 Sport/Air 200
Excalibur 343
2017 Boatmate Tandem Axle Trailer

Former CC owner (77, 80, 95, 88, all SNs)

Former Malibu owner (07, 09)


Posted By: NCH20SKIER
Date Posted: March-19-2013 at 10:12am
Steve
Our ski team bought a Mastercrap Barefoot 190 (tristar wtih a bbbc). We were not impressed and very happy when this boat became someone else's.

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'05 206 Limited
'88 BFN


Posted By: Swatkinz
Date Posted: March-19-2013 at 10:53am
Originally posted by NCH20SKIER NCH20SKIER wrote:

Steve
Our ski team bought a Mastercrap Barefoot 190 (tristar wtih a bbbc). We were not impressed and very happy when this boat became someone else's.


It didn't last long in the MC line up so I figured it must've been a disappointment. I'm guessing that would've been MCs answer to the BFN.

When we footing on Badin?

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Steve
2011 Sport/Air 200
Excalibur 343
2017 Boatmate Tandem Axle Trailer

Former CC owner (77, 80, 95, 88, all SNs)

Former Malibu owner (07, 09)


Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: March-19-2013 at 11:23am
My uncle had a '87 tristar. I don't recall skiing begin it but I was told it had a good barefoot wake... And that was about it.

Mc made a few different outboards- the prostar 200 of the late 80's, the barefoot 200 of the early-mid 90's and the powerstar 200 of the late 90's. I've been told the bf200 was a decent footing boat- pretty sure it had a semi-vee hull.

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Posted By: phatsat67
Date Posted: March-19-2013 at 11:25am
I've seen some old Barefoot Supremes with 460 Fords in them. Probably fast but the hull is no different from a standard Ski Supreme so they probably foot just like any other ski boat. Never barefooted behind my Uncles 87 Supreme.

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Posted By: Hollywood
Date Posted: March-19-2013 at 11:47am
Same goes for the Barefoot Skier, American Skier hull (which you'll notice is true for most, if not all of the inboards)

Sportster is a very good barefoot boat. Don't worry about what wasn't tested, it's quite easy to read between the lines.

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Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: March-19-2013 at 12:04pm
Originally posted by phatsat67 phatsat67 wrote:

I've seen some old Barefoot Supremes with 460 Fords in them. Probably fast but the hull is no different from a standard Ski Supreme so they probably foot just like any other ski boat. Never barefooted behind my Uncles 87 Supreme.

Theres a guy on here who bought a BF Supreme with a 460 real cheap and got it running. I like the looks of those boats.

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Posted By: phatsat67
Date Posted: March-19-2013 at 12:19pm
Agreed Tim, They are great looking boats. I would prefer a Supreme over a MC. There was an awesome white one with metallic blue and red graphics (barefooter that is) a while back for sale somewhere. My uncles 87 is teal and white and has been a really good boat to them for going on 12 years I think? Was on a private lake it's whole life until my uncle picked it up.

Two of the longest members of the Muncie Ski Club both sport stunning one owner examples of Ski Supremes. One is dark red with metallic grey/white graphics and the other is flipflop with metallic grey color and red/white graphics. They boat look show room new. One of the two was in the factory when it was set to be foreclosed on. Gene had to make a late night trip to get to the factory before 12am when the take over stared. He went into the factory himself with his suburban and pulled his pre paid boat out. If he didn't do that he would have lost his money and his boat. . There used to be a beautiful 300 hour annaversary edition on our lake that someone bought and then proceded to park on a lift un covered every summer untill it disappeared

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Posted By: GlassSeeker
Date Posted: March-19-2013 at 3:57pm
The Malibu Sportster is a nice footing boat, too bad Malibu never submitted it as a Barefoot boat because I'm sure it would have passed.

Those Supreme footers were pretty bad. IIRC the wake was not very crossable. That was a long time ago.

I don't have a list of the boats that failed to earn approval.
They have approved some pretty crappy boats too.
If it's not approved it has never been used in competition barefooting.
The list I posted is from the ABC.

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This is the life


Posted By: GlassSeeker
Date Posted: March-19-2013 at 4:25pm
SkiPro?





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This is the life


Posted By: phatsat67
Date Posted: March-19-2013 at 5:09pm
Thats crazy! Looks like show ski twin rig tricks haha.

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Posted By: 75 Tique
Date Posted: March-19-2013 at 5:39pm
Are all the ski-pros out in the back 40 with trees growing up out of them. A few weeks ago when we were talking about Banana George's boats, I looked in all the classifieds and google images and don't think I found one ski-pro. I thought they were popular in the endurance racing circles because of their speed, so I figured they would still be around, but I haven't found any.

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_____________
“So, how was your weekend?”
“Well, let me see…sun burn, stiff neck, screwed up back, assorted aches and pains….yup, my weekend was great, thanks for asking.”


Posted By: GlassSeeker
Date Posted: March-19-2013 at 6:30pm
I have heard tales of SkiPro's having hull separation during a race. Almost sank. They had one at 2003 Nationals in Elk Grove and very few skied it. The drivers all said the boat wandered because of the outdrive but I have never driven, riden in, or skied a SkiPro.

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This is the life


Posted By: GlassSeeker
Date Posted: March-19-2013 at 6:35pm
94 Flightcraft



91 Flightcraft



Willies Malibu



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This is the life


Posted By: storm34
Date Posted: March-19-2013 at 9:53pm
Are all Sangers composite? Got a buddy looking at a 91 but he's done with wood stringers unfortunately.

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Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: March-19-2013 at 9:57pm
I think HW may have told me that they're still built with wood, but icbw.

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Posted By: GlassSeeker
Date Posted: March-19-2013 at 10:06pm
Sanger has no qualms about using wood.

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This is the life


Posted By: GlassSeeker
Date Posted: March-19-2013 at 10:17pm
If you don't have 9 mins skip to 3:00



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This is the life


Posted By: GlassSeeker
Date Posted: March-19-2013 at 10:25pm
A 91 you just need to inspect.
Some older boats have had some problems, Outboards have some problems at the transoms sometimes but its rare, the ones I know of are pre 91. I know of some floors being replaced but I have not seen any stringer jobs. I am not saying it's never happened just that I am not aware of any and I do look.

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This is the life


Posted By: Tim D
Date Posted: March-19-2013 at 10:39pm
I don't think they screw motor mounts into those dinky plywood stringers.

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Tim D


Posted By: GlassSeeker
Date Posted: March-19-2013 at 10:47pm
you're right Sanger has never screwed motor mounts into the stringers.

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This is the life


Posted By: GlassSeeker
Date Posted: March-19-2013 at 10:48pm
Something to note here would be that Sanger has no horsepower limits on the hulls. You can bolt in whatever you want.

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This is the life


Posted By: GlassSeeker
Date Posted: March-19-2013 at 10:55pm
Don't forget Sangers heritage is in going FAST with tons of horsepower.

Here's an 81



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This is the life


Posted By: kapla
Date Posted: March-20-2013 at 12:00am
soooo wacha think about a bu response txi with the 410 engine and the scarpa plate?
bling or decent bf boat?


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<a href="">1992 ski nautique


Posted By: GlassSeeker
Date Posted: March-20-2013 at 12:14am
Is that the boat you test drove/videos?
What was it's top speed?

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This is the life


Posted By: NCH20SKIER
Date Posted: March-20-2013 at 12:23am
Kap
I have footed behind the LXI with the 410 hp and it was very good. We used one for our New Years Day Tournament 2 years without compaints (other than the driver) - yours truly.
Youtube search for Lake Norman New Years Day Barefoot Challenge

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'05 206 Limited
'88 BFN


Posted By: kapla
Date Posted: March-20-2013 at 12:27am
yup, thats the one, id say around 50, not sure how accurate the phone gps is but while ss they told my i was going 47 wich I doubt...

the bu is 5k up in price than the sanger with the same engine but has more resale potencial here...

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<a href="">1992 ski nautique


Posted By: NCH20SKIER
Date Posted: March-20-2013 at 12:43am
The Bu we used wwould run 54+ on a GPS.

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'05 206 Limited
'88 BFN


Posted By: GlassSeeker
Date Posted: March-20-2013 at 12:45am
Consider this:

Do you do any barefoot wake slalom?

Most people don't do much because their wakes are not conducive to footing. And if you don't compete you may not find any reason to be crossing your wakes on one foot frontwards and backwards.

I can tell you wake slalom is fun and very challenging.

How many times can you cross it in 15 seconds? Basically the world record is 10 front one foots, and and another 15 seconds for 10 back one foots(2 passes) 1.5 seconds per cross...that's fast.

The wake is extremely important.

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This is the life


Posted By: GlassSeeker
Date Posted: March-20-2013 at 12:56am
why don't you think it was 47?
it sounded fast...it looked pretty fast, had to be 44+

that would be something to try and verify before buying it. What is the topspeed towing a footer longline by a good GPS.

And you get another test drive/footin runs then

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This is the life


Posted By: kapla
Date Posted: March-20-2013 at 1:11am
i´m planning on doing another test run, as last one potencial buyer (julio) could not assist! I went as his advisor!
we might even mount a SFH for the next outing, and of course do some ll runs...

I cannot cross wakes, probably due to the fact that the table on the sn is like running on rocks...I always end up doing face plants...

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<a href="">1992 ski nautique


Posted By: kapla
Date Posted: March-20-2013 at 1:15am
maybe you are right and it was 47...it slided nicely...

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<a href="">1992 ski nautique


Posted By: GlassSeeker
Date Posted: March-20-2013 at 1:30am
It would have felt more "solid" than say 43

I gotta say your pop in to the sideslide looks badazz! I did not see any up weight, you just turned em and burned em!

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This is the life


Posted By: kapla
Date Posted: March-20-2013 at 1:36am
little more practice and I think i´ll get the show foot completely perpendicular to the boat..lol


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<a href="">1992 ski nautique


Posted By: GlassSeeker
Date Posted: March-20-2013 at 1:49am
I know you know where it's sposed to be- LOL...It's close enough, it will be perp when you go out longline with it just because of the angle of the pull. It took me a few summers to learn it really well, like 5.
You are moving pretty fast really. You are improving it all the time, some days may not seem like it but as long as you continue to focus on doing it the best you can it will get better.

barefooting is 90% mental.

Think about turning it 110 degrees, so past 90. It's darn near skiing backwards.---In fact it is.

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This is the life


Posted By: GlassSeeker
Date Posted: March-20-2013 at 1:54am
Willie still can't get his show foot sideways

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This is the life


Posted By: tbeard
Date Posted: March-20-2013 at 2:11am
Andy great input on the Sanger and footing behind them. I still love the boats for footing.
Yes I agree wake slalom is a blast but you have to have the right wake if you are going to get agressive. My old ski friend had a Barefoot Supreme and the wake was un-crossable. We had a name for it that I cannot say on this site but it was BAD. Thanks for the education.

With the exception of getting air on Back Wakes off my BFN table I still like the boat overall....Good curl for tricks, flat table, excellent ride and you can foot behind it in rough water. Yes I know....I am old school.   

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Thanks.......Tom


Posted By: GlassSeeker
Date Posted: March-20-2013 at 2:16am
I will never ever forget my first barefoot tournament, Oakland estuary, wind blowing hard, whitecaps, a Barefoot Nautique knocking a hole through the waves leading the next Barefoot Nautique towing us sorry competitors. Probably is why I go by GlassSeeker!

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This is the life


Posted By: GlassSeeker
Date Posted: March-20-2013 at 2:27am
I have a lot of vhs tape of some hilacious wipeouts off the BFN wake backwards, and forwards. Try to keep the foot on edge all the way thru the wake and some to be sure. If you can slice it it's not quite as much of a dropoff.

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This is the life


Posted By: GlassSeeker
Date Posted: March-20-2013 at 2:39am
Kap try to "drift" your sideslide on the boom, cut away and then cut back and pop in to sideslide with a drift towards the boat and then let it drift you back out.

Like so, I do it a few times in here


   

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This is the life


Posted By: GlassSeeker
Date Posted: March-20-2013 at 2:45am
Steve Merritt's wake turns off of the BFN wake are something to behold. His training video is awesome and it's CC BFN all the way.

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This is the life


Posted By: peter1234
Date Posted: March-20-2013 at 11:10am
Originally posted by GlassSeeker GlassSeeker wrote:



I gotta say your pop in to the sideslide looks badazz! I did not see any up weight, you just turned em and burned em!

I hope if they ever do a smokey and the bandit remake you play truck drivin jerry reed.


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former skylark owner now a formula but I cant let this place go


Posted By: GlassSeeker
Date Posted: March-20-2013 at 4:02pm
looks like we got us a convoy

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This is the life


Posted By: phatsat67
Date Posted: March-20-2013 at 4:03pm
96 miles an hour? I didn't know this truck would run 96 miles an hour!

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Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: March-20-2013 at 4:37pm
Originally posted by GlassSeeker GlassSeeker wrote:

If you don't have 9 mins skip to 3:00


I just had the chance to watch this. Theres a healthy amount of marketing spin in there, IMHO. "Wood that will never rot"... now thats a new one. "These stringers are composite, they just have a wood core"... oh boy, thats a stretch. By that definition, CC has been putting composite stringers in their boats since 1961.

While theres nothing inherently wrong with wood stringers, claiming that there is no better way to build a boat is really pushing it. Being a low volume manufacturer, it seems pretty obvious to me that Sanger chose to use better "cheap" core materials (wood) and a fairly high level of craftsmanship in order to build a high quality boat, rather than invest a considerable amount of money in extra molds for a truly composite stringer and floor system. Nothing wrong with that. A high strength composite sheet material like Coosa or Airex would be a suitable replacement for wood in terms of strength, and would only require minor process changes. I would consider that to be a "better" way to build a boat than what theyre currently doing. The downside is obviously cost. Wood may be "good enough" but I guess that doesnt make for a very convincing marketing video.

There are definitely some design choices that are different when comparing a manufacturers like Sanger and CC... the role of foam, stringer core material, etc. One is not necessarily "better" than the other. For instance, while a wood core is obviously stronger than a foam core, when considering the entire stringer (with glass over it), they can end up with the same strength if a heavier glass schedule is used over the foam. Notice that the guy in the video doesnt say that Sanger's stringers are stronger- just that wood is a stronger core material than foam (or hollow). Well, duh.

A few other interesting tidbits that I noticed from the video:
1. Primary stringers appear to be LVL (microlam)
2. Secondary stringers appear to be (treated?) ply, same with the front floor section shown.
3. Stringers seem to stop short of the transom, not sure why.
4. Method for installing the stringer systems looks to be as rudimentary as all of the home rebuilds documented on CCF... some clamps installed by hand and some weights thrown on top! (ref 5:00)

Anyways, its really cool to see the process that other manufacturers use to build their boats- so thanks for posting. Its unlikely we'd see comparable pictures or videos coming from the big 3 (CC/MC/Bu), as they seem to hold their construction process pretty close to the vest. One of my favorite parts of going to the boat show every year is climbing in competing brands and trying to figure out how they are put together.

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Posted By: GlassSeeker
Date Posted: March-20-2013 at 4:46pm
I'll just let this percolate for a while

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This is the life


Posted By: phatsat67
Date Posted: March-20-2013 at 4:47pm
Tim, I would say most of the guys on the site do a more through job by means of fit and finish when done!

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Posted By: Swatkinz
Date Posted: March-20-2013 at 8:35pm
Originally posted by TRBenj TRBenj wrote:

Originally posted by GlassSeeker GlassSeeker wrote:

If you don't have 9 mins skip to 3:00


I just had the chance to watch this. Theres a healthy amount of marketing spin in there, IMHO. "Wood that will never rot"... now thats a new one. "These stringers are composite, they just have a wood core"... oh boy, thats a stretch. By that definition, CC has been putting composite stringers in their boats since 1961.

While theres nothing inherently wrong with wood stringers, claiming that there is no better way to build a boat is really pushing it. Being a low volume manufacturer, it seems pretty obvious to me that Sanger chose to use better "cheap" core materials (wood) and a fairly high level of craftsmanship in order to build a high quality boat, rather than invest a considerable amount of money in extra molds for a truly composite stringer and floor system. Nothing wrong with that. A high strength composite sheet material like Coosa or Airex would be a suitable replacement for wood in terms of strength, and would only require minor process changes. I would consider that to be a "better" way to build a boat than what theyre currently doing. The downside is obviously cost. Wood may be "good enough" but I guess that doesnt make for a very convincing marketing video.

There are definitely some design choices that are different when comparing a manufacturers like Sanger and CC... the role of foam, stringer core material, etc. One is not necessarily "better" than the other. For instance, while a wood core is obviously stronger than a foam core, when considering the entire stringer (with glass over it), they can end up with the same strength if a heavier glass schedule is used over the foam. Notice that the guy in the video doesnt say that Sanger's stringers are stronger- just that wood is a stronger core material than foam (or hollow). Well, duh.

A few other interesting tidbits that I noticed from the video:
1. Primary stringers appear to be LVL (microlam)
2. Secondary stringers appear to be (treated?) ply, same with the front floor section shown.
3. Stringers seem to stop short of the transom, not sure why.
4. Method for installing the stringer systems looks to be as rudimentary as all of the home rebuilds documented on CCF... some clamps installed by hand and some weights thrown on top! (ref 5:00)

Anyways, its really cool to see the process that other manufacturers use to build their boats- so thanks for posting. Its unlikely we'd see comparable pictures or videos coming from the big 3 (CC/MC/Bu), as they seem to hold their construction process pretty close to the vest. One of my favorite parts of going to the boat show every year is climbing in competing brands and trying to figure out how they are put together.


"the guy" is Scott Pellaton right? The world record holder for fastest barefooter?

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Steve
2011 Sport/Air 200
Excalibur 343
2017 Boatmate Tandem Axle Trailer

Former CC owner (77, 80, 95, 88, all SNs)

Former Malibu owner (07, 09)


Posted By: Swatkinz
Date Posted: March-20-2013 at 8:43pm
Originally posted by Swatkinz Swatkinz wrote:

Originally posted by TRBenj TRBenj wrote:

Originally posted by GlassSeeker GlassSeeker wrote:

If you don't have 9 mins skip to 3:00


I just had the chance to watch this. Theres a healthy amount of marketing spin in there, IMHO. "Wood that will never rot"... now thats a new one. "These stringers are composite, they just have a wood core"... oh boy, thats a stretch. By that definition, CC has been putting composite stringers in their boats since 1961.

While theres nothing inherently wrong with wood stringers, claiming that there is no better way to build a boat is really pushing it. Being a low volume manufacturer, it seems pretty obvious to me that Sanger chose to use better "cheap" core materials (wood) and a fairly high level of craftsmanship in order to build a high quality boat, rather than invest a considerable amount of money in extra molds for a truly composite stringer and floor system. Nothing wrong with that. A high strength composite sheet material like Coosa or Airex would be a suitable replacement for wood in terms of strength, and would only require minor process changes. I would consider that to be a "better" way to build a boat than what theyre currently doing. The downside is obviously cost. Wood may be "good enough" but I guess that doesnt make for a very convincing marketing video.

There are definitely some design choices that are different when comparing a manufacturers like Sanger and CC... the role of foam, stringer core material, etc. One is not necessarily "better" than the other. For instance, while a wood core is obviously stronger than a foam core, when considering the entire stringer (with glass over it), they can end up with the same strength if a heavier glass schedule is used over the foam. Notice that the guy in the video doesnt say that Sanger's stringers are stronger- just that wood is a stronger core material than foam (or hollow). Well, duh.

A few other interesting tidbits that I noticed from the video:
1. Primary stringers appear to be LVL (microlam)
2. Secondary stringers appear to be (treated?) ply, same with the front floor section shown.
3. Stringers seem to stop short of the transom, not sure why.
4. Method for installing the stringer systems looks to be as rudimentary as all of the home rebuilds documented on CCF... some clamps installed by hand and some weights thrown on top! (ref 5:00)

Anyways, its really cool to see the process that other manufacturers use to build their boats- so thanks for posting. Its unlikely we'd see comparable pictures or videos coming from the big 3 (CC/MC/Bu), as they seem to hold their construction process pretty close to the vest. One of my favorite parts of going to the boat show every year is climbing in competing brands and trying to figure out how they are put together.


"the guy" is Scott Pellaton right? The world record holder for fastest barefooter?


Could there be any truth to his statement that...."This wood cannot rot?" He references, the chemical treatment of the wood, the layers of glue..yadda, yadda. Does non-rotting wood exist? TRBENJ, you mentioned the use of Coosa in leiu of wood. You also referenced the cost prohibitive aspect of Coosa vs. wood. It would seem that given the entire cost of the boat, the cost difference of Coosa in the stringers would not drastically impact the cost of the boat. Unless the cost of Coosa is 50x what wood costs, it seems that there's not that much wood in a stringer system.

Regardless of Sanger's logic and the arguments of wood vs. composite, I like the look of Sangers' alot, especially the later boats with the one piece curved windshield.

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Steve
2011 Sport/Air 200
Excalibur 343
2017 Boatmate Tandem Axle Trailer

Former CC owner (77, 80, 95, 88, all SNs)

Former Malibu owner (07, 09)


Posted By: Swatkinz
Date Posted: March-20-2013 at 8:47pm
Originally posted by GlassSeeker GlassSeeker wrote:

The big blocks are OK but in competition the 5 people plus the extra 200lbs of fat engine gave the wake a hump across the table so it has been determined that the small block with 400+hp is the way to go.

The new LS series small blocks are supplied by Indmar and being all aluminum they are about 200 lbs lighter than a SBC.


"Ski Sanger" is really generic advertising and does not refer to a specific model, It is common to hear people say I've got a Ski Sanger and if you ask them the model they think it's Ski Sanger. Most of the people who have them don't know the model they own. Seriously.

And just because it says "Barefooter" on the side does not mean it's the DXII...Some DLX's (open bow inboard) got the plate and the sticker but it's not the DXII barefoot wake, close but not as good.





Interesting that you point this out, b/c he told me that his rationale for going with the PCM was b/c he wanted to tournament load it for practice and felt he needed the additional power to achieve this. I could be wrong on this, but I believe he told me that the boat would easily pull a footer well into the 50+ range.

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Steve
2011 Sport/Air 200
Excalibur 343
2017 Boatmate Tandem Axle Trailer

Former CC owner (77, 80, 95, 88, all SNs)

Former Malibu owner (07, 09)


Posted By: Swatkinz
Date Posted: March-20-2013 at 8:48pm
Originally posted by Swatkinz Swatkinz wrote:

Originally posted by GlassSeeker GlassSeeker wrote:

The big blocks are OK but in competition the 5 people plus the extra 200lbs of fat engine gave the wake a hump across the table so it has been determined that the small block with 400+hp is the way to go.

The new LS series small blocks are supplied by Indmar and being all aluminum they are about 200 lbs lighter than a SBC.


"Ski Sanger" is really generic advertising and does not refer to a specific model, It is common to hear people say I've got a Ski Sanger and if you ask them the model they think it's Ski Sanger. Most of the people who have them don't know the model they own. Seriously.

And just because it says "Barefooter" on the side does not mean it's the DXII...Some DLX's (open bow inboard) got the plate and the sticker but it's not the DXII barefoot wake, close but not as good.





Interesting that you point this out, b/c he told me that his rationale for going with the BB PCM was b/c he wanted to tournament load it for practice and felt he needed the additional power to achieve this. I could be wrong on this, but I believe he told me that the boat would easily pull a footer well into the 50+ range.


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Steve
2011 Sport/Air 200
Excalibur 343
2017 Boatmate Tandem Axle Trailer

Former CC owner (77, 80, 95, 88, all SNs)

Former Malibu owner (07, 09)


Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: March-20-2013 at 9:09pm
Originally posted by Swatkinz Swatkinz wrote:


Could there be any truth to his statement that...."This wood cannot rot?" He references, the chemical treatment of the wood, the layers of glue..yadda, yadda. Does non-rotting wood exist? TRBENJ, you mentioned the use of Coosa in leiu of wood. You also referenced the cost prohibitive aspect of Coosa vs. wood. It would seem that given the entire cost of the boat, the cost difference of Coosa in the stringers would not drastically impact the cost of the boat. Unless the cost of Coosa is 50x what wood costs, it seems that there's not that much wood in a stringer system.

I'll let someone smarter than me (like Pete) answer the wood question. I have not heard of "impossible to rot wood", though there are things you can do to make it less susceptible (like CPES). My guess is that he's simply referring to regular pressure treated wood (treated to be weather resistant) and LVL (which uses waterproof glue to hold the layers together). I know Tige is (or was) building their stringers with treated lumber.

As far as cost goes, the materials used to build a hull are not that expensive. A few grand maybe? I would imagine that their profit margin has to be pretty high though- how many people does the company employ, and how much does it cost to run that factory? They only build 400 boats a year in order to recoup their costs (or make a profit). Every little bit of cost they can trim from the boat goes back in their pockets... and if they think wood is good enough, then theyre not going to spend 5x the amount on a composite stringer and floor core. Foam, glass and resin, on the other hand, are relatively cheap... so once you get past the initial cost of building a mold for the stringer system, its not that expensive to do away with the wood entirely. Heck, its probably cheaper! Thats probably why CC/MC/Bu have hollow or foam filled stringers. Their production numbers are higher than Sanger, so they can spread the mold costs over more units. Different business models, but both make sense.

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Posted By: GlassSeeker
Date Posted: March-20-2013 at 9:54pm
Yes it's Scott 135mph Pellaton, he's the national sales manager for Sanger Boats

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This is the life


Posted By: GlassSeeker
Date Posted: March-21-2013 at 7:11pm
The DXII mold has not changed in 20 years still doing it the same way.

Sanger Boats is family owned and over 59 years old and many people have been with them as long as 35 years. Many 20-25 years. They know what they are doing.

The Aquabeam came in mid 90's and lifetime hull warranty in about 99 or so.

So are you guys saying wood is no good?

I'm glad my Sanger has wood stingers because it rides so smooth and quiet and solid, slam it over the waves it doesn't shake or rattle, it slices, it dices.

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This is the life


Posted By: Hollywood
Date Posted: March-21-2013 at 8:13pm
Steve you doubled the length of this thread in just 4 posts.

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Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: March-21-2013 at 8:46pm
Originally posted by GlassSeeker GlassSeeker wrote:


So are you guys saying wood is no good?

I'm glad my Sanger has wood stingers because it rides so smooth and quiet and solid, slam it over the waves it doesn't shake or rattle, it slices, it dices.

Wood is usually "good enough"... Heck, all pre 93 cc's are built that way. It's certainly not the be-all end-all of materials though.

You don't need wood to make a solid boat. You don't need foam either. Come for a ride in joes 83 or my bfn and it'll be obvious real quick!

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Posted By: GlassSeeker
Date Posted: March-21-2013 at 10:17pm
Wood works just fine.
No foam in a Sanger.

Sanger's reputation rides on it's solid hulls (and perfect barefoot wake)

They are the only mfgr that I get the same "feel" that the old 85 BFN had.

Your boats are coosa? I'm curious about how it compares on the water to an original boat? can you tell a difference?



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This is the life


Posted By: Swatkinz
Date Posted: March-21-2013 at 11:35pm
Originally posted by Hollywood Hollywood wrote:

Steve you doubled the length of this thread in just 4 posts.


Sorry HW, things tend to get longer when I get excited.

cool thread, eh?

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Steve
2011 Sport/Air 200
Excalibur 343
2017 Boatmate Tandem Axle Trailer

Former CC owner (77, 80, 95, 88, all SNs)

Former Malibu owner (07, 09)


Posted By: GlassSeeker
Date Posted: March-22-2013 at 12:18am
Steve you mentioned your friends big block and those do work and they are fast.

The downside is loss of space in the boat, higher weird shaped engine cover, and under tournament conditions, fully loaded 5 people, the extra weight of the big block(~200lbs) the wake humped up more than was desired.

As a boat to own and train with the extra weight helps to fill in for 1 person. When the boat is not fully loaded you can't tell any difference in the wake.

It's all about the total weight that's loaded into the hull.
At a certain point it humps the wake up more than a small block does.

A fully loaded small block of the high horsepower variety allows the smaller engine cover, more room in the boat, super nimble when its not fully loaded and very nimble when it is.

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This is the life


Posted By: GlassSeeker
Date Posted: March-22-2013 at 12:33am
Here's a 6L PCM



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This is the life


Posted By: Swatkinz
Date Posted: March-22-2013 at 12:36am
I could've misspoken. Is a 6L a BB? I'm fairly certain that's what this guy has. His idea was to get more HP with this engine upgrade and then load the boat with fat sacs to tournament load to mimic tourney wake and table. I don't think he had to use a different motorbox or modify the original in any way. Greg Fosset would know as he's driven this boat for the New Years day BF challenge.

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Steve
2011 Sport/Air 200
Excalibur 343
2017 Boatmate Tandem Axle Trailer

Former CC owner (77, 80, 95, 88, all SNs)

Former Malibu owner (07, 09)


Posted By: GlassSeeker
Date Posted: March-22-2013 at 12:37am
42mph



46 mph



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This is the life


Posted By: GlassSeeker
Date Posted: March-22-2013 at 12:39am
Actually if you load 5 people in a BFN the wake gets the hump goin too.

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This is the life


Posted By: GlassSeeker
Date Posted: March-22-2013 at 12:59am
Originally posted by Swatkinz Swatkinz wrote:

I could've misspoken. Is a 6L a BB? I'm fairly certain that's what this guy has. His idea was to get more HP with this engine upgrade and then load the boat with fat sacs to tournament load to mimic tourney wake and table. I don't think he had to use a different motorbox or modify the original in any way. Greg Fosset would know as he's driven this boat for the New Years day BF challenge.


I was told there would be no math!

the 6 litre ZR6 PCM is a small block this was a one off boat for New Zealand.

The Big Block Mercs were 8.1 and 8.2 litres...big blocks big cubes

There have been a lot of different motors put in these boats.



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This is the life


Posted By: NCH20SKIER
Date Posted: March-22-2013 at 10:34am
Steve,
If am not mistaken Ron had the 409 (6L)put into the Sanger. Wish I had in the Sport Nautique.

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'05 206 Limited
'88 BFN


Posted By: phatsat67
Date Posted: March-22-2013 at 11:47am
That black scorpion is a hot rod. My buddy has one in a 02 response LXI and it runs right at 50.2 at 4900 RPM. He sent the prop back to Acme and told them he wanted it to spin 3-400 more RPM. We will see what it does in the spring. The heads had to be shaved a bit due to an over heat and he had a 3 angle valve job done while they were off so it may be a little hotter than it was originally. 20 ponies or so.

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Posted By: GlassSeeker
Date Posted: April-11-2013 at 8:14pm
If it's a Blue Scorpion like the one pictured it's from Mercury Racing Division. 377 ci/ 377 hp. "377 Scorpion"

This guy does not even know he's selling a barefoot boat.

http://stockton.craigslist.org/boa/3705751612.html" rel="nofollow - Barefooter for sale

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This is the life


Posted By: bkhallpass
Date Posted: April-11-2013 at 9:52pm
Andy,

We have to get some of these guys to come out and ski with you. I bet
we could use Rich Peters boat at Diablo Shores, and probably get
Pellaton and Temby to come out along with you, Willy, Flipper, who knows.

BTW - I think you and I met once. I don't remember if it was at Diablo Shores or perhaps at the ski show Temby put together at Orwood. I think you
know my wife as well, Denese Davidson.

Guys, Sanger could put whatever stringers they want in a boat. They like wood and believes it give the boat the best characteristics (recall CC felt the same way for a long time). Once Sanger agreed to a lifetime warranty for original owners, it became kind of a moot point. CC has a boat with stringers they say will last forever, and Sanger has stringers it will warrant forever.

Of course, if you buying used, perhaps a different story. But, there are plenty of 25 year old Sangers driving around out here.

BKH

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Livin' the Dream



Posted By: GlassSeeker
Date Posted: April-11-2013 at 11:38pm
I've skied with Rich, and Temby and Jerry, you know I ski with Willie, I've skied at Diablo since before it was made longer. I did work in Temby's show as a skier and camera op a couple of years. I don't think we could get Scott out to foot.

I can't put a face to the name, Davidson is the last name of Sanger Boats owners!?

I was just down at the factory to see my friends new boat he has the first "Dagger" DXII.

Barefoot Nationals is at Diablo Shores this year so we will all be out there.





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This is the life


Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: April-12-2013 at 11:21am
Originally posted by bkhallpass bkhallpass wrote:

Guys, Sanger could put whatever stringers they want in a boat. They like wood and believes it give the boat the best characteristics (recall CC felt the same way for a long time). Once Sanger agreed to a lifetime warranty for original owners, it became kind of a moot point. CC has a boat with stringers they say will last forever, and Sanger has stringers it will warrant forever.

Of course, if you buying used, perhaps a different story. But, there are plenty of 25 year old Sangers driving around out here.

Agree to disagree, Brian!

Anyone who says "wood is the best" without any caveats is just spouting marketing BS. It may be the best low cost material available, thats a viable argument. It certainly is "good enough" to build a quality boat. CC did it for a looooong time. They finally found a better way- better in that there is no longer any wood that will rot, while the performance of the boat is essentially unchanged. I understand that the wood-like stringer core materials are cost prohibitive for a boutique manufacturer like Sanger, but that doesnt mean they get to ignore the fact that there are better alternatives available. They choose to get by with a lower cost material (wood), and back it up with (presumably) great craftsmanship and a great warranty. Nothing wrong with that!

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Posted By: GlassSeeker
Date Posted: April-12-2013 at 2:14pm
Sanger never built a Boutique...that was Correct Craft.

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This is the life



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