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Competition Barefoot Boats, Non CC

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    Posted: April-27-2013 at 2:13am
a little hard to see some of the detail

gelcoat lines ---none of this is tape or decal or stickers



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GlassSeeker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-27-2013 at 1:53am
Here's the Indmar 6.0





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GlassSeeker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-27-2013 at 1:44am
getting closer to done.
The first DXII to get "The Dagger" gelcoat graphic.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GlassSeeker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-15-2013 at 5:15pm
Here are two of the bulkheads that make these boats so rigid. More get glassed into the sides.

Wood! wood! wood!

A new barefoot boat is born. Yep that is gelcoat.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GlassSeeker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-12-2013 at 3:42pm
Originally posted by TRBenj TRBenj wrote:

ski boats are small and pretty darn stiff


Sanger does do some special things to make their skiboat stiffer than the competition's boats.

Bulkheads are added which significantly increase the hulls strength and rigidity.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GlassSeeker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-12-2013 at 3:33pm
Disco Bay is crawling with Sanger boats too so I know Brian has seen alot of them...hundreds of them...never two alike.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GlassSeeker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-12-2013 at 3:22pm
I'd argue craftsmanship because these boats don't fall apart after 20 years they are still solid.

"you can fill the boat with water leave it there for 3 years, you can raise fish in the boat" LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-12-2013 at 3:14pm
I cant speak to the craftsmanship of Sangers either. Im just assuming that was one of the things theyre doing to compensate for the wood. If they truly believe that the wood makes for a better performing ski boat, I think theyre kidding themselves. I could possibly see that argument on a much larger boat that needed to flex, but ski boats are small and pretty darn stiff.

I would imagine that the lack of foam is the main reason the older boats are preserved so well, assuming thats how theyve always built them. Same thing goes for the mid 60's glass CC's that didnt get foamed- those boats are much less prone to rot than the foamed boats.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bkhallpass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-12-2013 at 2:55pm
I don't know that I'd argue for crafstmanship Tim. I think other brands
have better fit and finish than Sanger.

But, I've talked to the folks who build them. They beleive that wood makes for a better performing boat. Agree to disagree, that's fine. I don't really buy that either. But they seem to sincerely hold this belief.

Again, with the warranty they've put forward, the wooden stringers are a non-issue for a new boat buyer.

Used boat, buyer beware, just as a buyer needs to beware when buying an older CC with wood stringers.

To date, I have only seen one Sanger that needed a stringer job. I don't keep a tally, but I am familiar with a lot of Sanger boats. Now, these boats are fairly new. I don't think Sanger started making the inboard Ski Sanger line until 86 or 87. What I have seen a lot is the ski pylon pulling out of a Sanger. The pylons were mounted a to a crappy plywood cross brace. I helped a neighbor fix the pylon mount in his 91 this summer. They seem to be doing a better job with that as well on newer boats.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-12-2013 at 2:21pm


Originally posted by Merriam-Webster Merriam-Webster wrote:

bou·tique
noun, often attributive \bü-ˈtēk\
Definition of BOUTIQUE
1 a : a small fashionable shop
1 b : a small shop within a large department store
2: a small company that offers highly specialized services or products
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GlassSeeker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-12-2013 at 2:14pm
Sanger never built a Boutique...that was Correct Craft.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-12-2013 at 11:21am
Originally posted by bkhallpass bkhallpass wrote:

Guys, Sanger could put whatever stringers they want in a boat. They like wood and believes it give the boat the best characteristics (recall CC felt the same way for a long time). Once Sanger agreed to a lifetime warranty for original owners, it became kind of a moot point. CC has a boat with stringers they say will last forever, and Sanger has stringers it will warrant forever.

Of course, if you buying used, perhaps a different story. But, there are plenty of 25 year old Sangers driving around out here.

Agree to disagree, Brian!

Anyone who says "wood is the best" without any caveats is just spouting marketing BS. It may be the best low cost material available, thats a viable argument. It certainly is "good enough" to build a quality boat. CC did it for a looooong time. They finally found a better way- better in that there is no longer any wood that will rot, while the performance of the boat is essentially unchanged. I understand that the wood-like stringer core materials are cost prohibitive for a boutique manufacturer like Sanger, but that doesnt mean they get to ignore the fact that there are better alternatives available. They choose to get by with a lower cost material (wood), and back it up with (presumably) great craftsmanship and a great warranty. Nothing wrong with that!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GlassSeeker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-11-2013 at 11:38pm
I've skied with Rich, and Temby and Jerry, you know I ski with Willie, I've skied at Diablo since before it was made longer. I did work in Temby's show as a skier and camera op a couple of years. I don't think we could get Scott out to foot.

I can't put a face to the name, Davidson is the last name of Sanger Boats owners!?

I was just down at the factory to see my friends new boat he has the first "Dagger" DXII.

Barefoot Nationals is at Diablo Shores this year so we will all be out there.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bkhallpass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-11-2013 at 9:52pm
Andy,

We have to get some of these guys to come out and ski with you. I bet
we could use Rich Peters boat at Diablo Shores, and probably get
Pellaton and Temby to come out along with you, Willy, Flipper, who knows.

BTW - I think you and I met once. I don't remember if it was at Diablo Shores or perhaps at the ski show Temby put together at Orwood. I think you
know my wife as well, Denese Davidson.

Guys, Sanger could put whatever stringers they want in a boat. They like wood and believes it give the boat the best characteristics (recall CC felt the same way for a long time). Once Sanger agreed to a lifetime warranty for original owners, it became kind of a moot point. CC has a boat with stringers they say will last forever, and Sanger has stringers it will warrant forever.

Of course, if you buying used, perhaps a different story. But, there are plenty of 25 year old Sangers driving around out here.

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If it's a Blue Scorpion like the one pictured it's from Mercury Racing Division. 377 ci/ 377 hp. "377 Scorpion"

This guy does not even know he's selling a barefoot boat.

Barefooter for sale
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote phatsat67 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-22-2013 at 11:47am
That black scorpion is a hot rod. My buddy has one in a 02 response LXI and it runs right at 50.2 at 4900 RPM. He sent the prop back to Acme and told them he wanted it to spin 3-400 more RPM. We will see what it does in the spring. The heads had to be shaved a bit due to an over heat and he had a 3 angle valve job done while they were off so it may be a little hotter than it was originally. 20 ponies or so.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NCH20SKIER Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-22-2013 at 10:34am
Steve,
If am not mistaken Ron had the 409 (6L)put into the Sanger. Wish I had in the Sport Nautique.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GlassSeeker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-22-2013 at 12:59am
Originally posted by Swatkinz Swatkinz wrote:

I could've misspoken. Is a 6L a BB? I'm fairly certain that's what this guy has. His idea was to get more HP with this engine upgrade and then load the boat with fat sacs to tournament load to mimic tourney wake and table. I don't think he had to use a different motorbox or modify the original in any way. Greg Fosset would know as he's driven this boat for the New Years day BF challenge.


I was told there would be no math!

the 6 litre ZR6 PCM is a small block this was a one off boat for New Zealand.

The Big Block Mercs were 8.1 and 8.2 litres...big blocks big cubes

There have been a lot of different motors put in these boats.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GlassSeeker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-22-2013 at 12:39am
Actually if you load 5 people in a BFN the wake gets the hump goin too.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GlassSeeker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-22-2013 at 12:37am
42mph



46 mph

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Swatkinz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-22-2013 at 12:36am
I could've misspoken. Is a 6L a BB? I'm fairly certain that's what this guy has. His idea was to get more HP with this engine upgrade and then load the boat with fat sacs to tournament load to mimic tourney wake and table. I don't think he had to use a different motorbox or modify the original in any way. Greg Fosset would know as he's driven this boat for the New Years day BF challenge.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GlassSeeker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-22-2013 at 12:33am
Here's a 6L PCM

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GlassSeeker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-22-2013 at 12:18am
Steve you mentioned your friends big block and those do work and they are fast.

The downside is loss of space in the boat, higher weird shaped engine cover, and under tournament conditions, fully loaded 5 people, the extra weight of the big block(~200lbs) the wake humped up more than was desired.

As a boat to own and train with the extra weight helps to fill in for 1 person. When the boat is not fully loaded you can't tell any difference in the wake.

It's all about the total weight that's loaded into the hull.
At a certain point it humps the wake up more than a small block does.

A fully loaded small block of the high horsepower variety allows the smaller engine cover, more room in the boat, super nimble when its not fully loaded and very nimble when it is.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Swatkinz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-21-2013 at 11:35pm
Originally posted by Hollywood Hollywood wrote:

Steve you doubled the length of this thread in just 4 posts.


Sorry HW, things tend to get longer when I get excited.

cool thread, eh?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GlassSeeker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-21-2013 at 10:17pm
Wood works just fine.
No foam in a Sanger.

Sanger's reputation rides on it's solid hulls (and perfect barefoot wake)

They are the only mfgr that I get the same "feel" that the old 85 BFN had.

Your boats are coosa? I'm curious about how it compares on the water to an original boat? can you tell a difference?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-21-2013 at 8:46pm
Originally posted by GlassSeeker GlassSeeker wrote:


So are you guys saying wood is no good?

I'm glad my Sanger has wood stingers because it rides so smooth and quiet and solid, slam it over the waves it doesn't shake or rattle, it slices, it dices.

Wood is usually "good enough"... Heck, all pre 93 cc's are built that way. It's certainly not the be-all end-all of materials though.

You don't need wood to make a solid boat. You don't need foam either. Come for a ride in joes 83 or my bfn and it'll be obvious real quick!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hollywood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-21-2013 at 8:13pm
Steve you doubled the length of this thread in just 4 posts.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GlassSeeker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-21-2013 at 7:11pm
The DXII mold has not changed in 20 years still doing it the same way.

Sanger Boats is family owned and over 59 years old and many people have been with them as long as 35 years. Many 20-25 years. They know what they are doing.

The Aquabeam came in mid 90's and lifetime hull warranty in about 99 or so.

So are you guys saying wood is no good?

I'm glad my Sanger has wood stingers because it rides so smooth and quiet and solid, slam it over the waves it doesn't shake or rattle, it slices, it dices.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GlassSeeker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-20-2013 at 9:54pm
Yes it's Scott 135mph Pellaton, he's the national sales manager for Sanger Boats
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-20-2013 at 9:09pm
Originally posted by Swatkinz Swatkinz wrote:


Could there be any truth to his statement that...."This wood cannot rot?" He references, the chemical treatment of the wood, the layers of glue..yadda, yadda. Does non-rotting wood exist? TRBENJ, you mentioned the use of Coosa in leiu of wood. You also referenced the cost prohibitive aspect of Coosa vs. wood. It would seem that given the entire cost of the boat, the cost difference of Coosa in the stringers would not drastically impact the cost of the boat. Unless the cost of Coosa is 50x what wood costs, it seems that there's not that much wood in a stringer system.

I'll let someone smarter than me (like Pete) answer the wood question. I have not heard of "impossible to rot wood", though there are things you can do to make it less susceptible (like CPES). My guess is that he's simply referring to regular pressure treated wood (treated to be weather resistant) and LVL (which uses waterproof glue to hold the layers together). I know Tige is (or was) building their stringers with treated lumber.

As far as cost goes, the materials used to build a hull are not that expensive. A few grand maybe? I would imagine that their profit margin has to be pretty high though- how many people does the company employ, and how much does it cost to run that factory? They only build 400 boats a year in order to recoup their costs (or make a profit). Every little bit of cost they can trim from the boat goes back in their pockets... and if they think wood is good enough, then theyre not going to spend 5x the amount on a composite stringer and floor core. Foam, glass and resin, on the other hand, are relatively cheap... so once you get past the initial cost of building a mold for the stringer system, its not that expensive to do away with the wood entirely. Heck, its probably cheaper! Thats probably why CC/MC/Bu have hollow or foam filled stringers. Their production numbers are higher than Sanger, so they can spread the mold costs over more units. Different business models, but both make sense.
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