Wisconsin politics

Tom, I have not heard anything on any recal efforts, I was just curious. I know some will view the lost dems as heros for leaving, I am just interested as to how peoples opinions fall relating to the ethics of what they are doing.

is cheese production up? lol or is it them damn Harley's, I hav'nt been following the situation in Wisconsin to close, but really should.
I really think there is a conspiracy going on with these electronic gambling houses, they are popping up everywhere and the parking lots are full with the 70's crowd....are they giving back their social security?

The union workers need to shut there traps. Party is over! You been living on a to generous handout too ***************g long.

Why the hell do we pay 30k or 40k for a chevy or gmc p/u? Becuase about 15k of it is union freeking dues. It bull crap if you ask me. Leave the school teachers, police officers alone and cute the union.

Hansel wrote:     Remember that these union members are your neighbors and customers, so when they lose their wages or jobs, it means they won't be buying whatever it is that you sell. That is part of the problem here is Wisconsin. Some economists have raised the issue of how wise it is to significantly reduce pay of hundreds of thousands of people in the state. All of whom will now have less cash to upgrade their homes, go out to dinner, buy new boats, etc...

Jamin....You may find this odd, but, I completely agree with you! My next door neighbor is a union bus driver who works for the city. He made $159,000 last year!! He is doing GREAT....thanks to his union contract!!! Unfortunately, I am taxed up the yazoo to be able to pay for it.

Oh well, MY new boat, and MY home upgrades, and MY evenings out on the town at nice restaurants will have to wait I guess. I might even have to sell my house and move out of state because I can't afford the property taxes anymore. But, as long as the public union members get theirs...that is the important thing.

By the way, just curious Jamin, do you own a Correct Craft (or any boat)? Not sure how you found this site. Glad you did though. You have some nice lakes in Madison. I stayed at the Edgewater last spring. Great hotel overlooking Lake Mendota (I think is the lake). I would love to bring my boat up there this summer!

Dave

horkn wrote: Of course you will find exceptions to the "rule" of how sides vote, but as a whole, the 2 sides vote just as I mentioned.

Tom It is the exceptions that that prove that they don't vote just as you mentioned, of course if your mind is made up I may just be confusing you with the facts.

As for tax breaks for the rich that is a term used by democrats and the media to vilify supply side economics. It could just as easily be called insentives for producers,rewards for achievers, or resources for job creaters. And it does work, when Raegan droped taxes from 70% to 28% the econmy grew and added 4 million jobs, and government collections increased. It ushered in the greatest sustained period of growht in U.S. history. It does tend to reward those that take the entrapranuerial risks at a higher rate than those that work for them, but they all rise together. look at communist and socialist countries and see how thier poor live compared to how they live here. In this country the poor have cell phones, TV's, and they do not starve, in fact their biggest health problems are related to obesity, they live in appartments, not huts. When socialist ideas are applied there is an initial boost to the poor but over time the lack of reward reduces incentive to produce and grow, and it brings everyone down. Eventually the poor get poorer, add in the coruption that comes with the power of a large central authority and it gets even worse.

If we are going to call pilfering 35 percent from the "rich" instead of 39.4% a break, lets call welfare reductions an entitlement break, and taking away collective bargaining a representation break.

Okay guys, a break in the political discussion. These Progressives are wearing me out!!:) Here are some pictures from Madison WI during my stay there last spring. I was very impressed with the downtown area, especially the campus terrace area overlooking the lake. It was the first 80+ Deg. day of the year. Hundreds of students drinking University supplied beer on the Student Union terrace. I couldn't believe that, but, then I remembered I was in Wisconsin.   

A picture of the capitol building we took on our way to the Great Dane. This is where all the action is going on now.



This is the first sight I saw the next morning when I looked out my hotel window. The UW Sculling Team out for a practice. That is Picnic Point off in the background. We walked out there and back to get some exercise.

Nice Pics Dave, When I am near water like that without the boat it drives me nuts. Nice town. I was there abot 30 years ago for a drum and bugle corps competition. The Madison scouts always amazed me.

Hansel wrote: Hi Tom and Dave, Tom, you beat me to a response to Dave. My impression of the situation is that the Democrats realized what an inflammatory move it was to leave the state, but still felt that it was necessary given the circumstances. It should be remembered that the Gov. wanted this sweeping bill passed in less than a week. The charge that the 14 are not doing what they were elected to do is not accurate, as the impression I have gotten is that the majority of those that voted them in think they are doing the right thing. Also, as long as there are tens of thousands of protesters in and around the WI Capitol I think they have sufficient political cover to remain out of state. I don't agree with Walker, but even if I did, I hope that I would be unbiased enough to know that this his is a poor example of leadership. I hope that if Democrats made similar moves, I would also be outraged. Tom, from what I gather this is your position, and I give you a ton of credit for it. I see that you are not too far away. How often do you make it to Madison?

Yeah, I am not pro walker, but I really want(ed) him to succeed in turning the economy around in this state. I still do, but I just don't see things ending well for him with the attitude that he has to have things his way 100% of the time.

It looks like walker is being investigated by the Government Accountability Board for multiple ethics, election law and labor law violations he appears have committed while being prank called by billionaire "Koch bros". Wisconsin is very strict regarding ethics, so I wouldn't be shocked if he gets in deep water for this.

I don't get to Madison nearly enough. I personally have made several ethics violations every time I have been there though.   LOL

horkn wrote: I don't know if I can be labeled any which way or the other politically, but I do know that I want my elected officials to do their jobs and work with each other to come up with solutions for the problems our states and country face.

Tom....with all due respect, at first I thought you were a conservative. However, you seem to have gone "progressive" on us. But don't worry, Dave, SkiCat and I are here to try and straighten things out!!

Okay, the voters spoke in November, and elected a Republican Governor, and majority in the Senate and Assembly. Thats democracy.

The Governor, Assembly, and Senate are trying to do the peoples work. Thats democracy.

Just because 14 Democrat Senators don't like the medicine they are going to have to swallow, they run and hide. That is NOT democracy. If they don't like what is going on, they should stay, and fight, and try to convince the other side they are wrong. And, by the way, there are rumors that the unions are paying for thier little vacation in Illinois too. Hmmmmm!

Can't you see that the public unions keep the Democrats in power, who in turn vote in all the rich salaries, and pensions for the public unions. TOTALLY A RIGGED GAME!!! It has to stop!

Whats wrong with re-certifying the union every year?

Whats wrong with having union members VOLUNTARILY pay their union dues instead of having it automatically deducted from thier pay, and funneled directly to the union coffers?

Come on man, wake up and smell the corrupt coffee!

I agree Tom, corruption is on both sides of the aisle. Here in Wisconsin the television is being flooded with ads for and against Walker. I notice that most of them are coming from outside groups with bigger agendas, e.g. American's for Prosperity (Koch Brother's $, for) and some group tied to Obama (can't remember the name now, against). While this issue surely does have implications beyond Wisconsin, it should be decided by Wisconsinites and I worry for a system that can be easily and (I pray not, but I fear) effectively swayed by massive amounts of money and influence from outside the state. That should worry all of us.

One of the good things that is coming out of this crisis is awareness. I know lots of people, myself included, who have learned a lot more about how their state government works. And many are asking themselves how we got here, and what our real options are to get out of this mess. Unfortunately for Walker, the more people think and talk the more of an incompetent ideologue he appears.

Hi Dave,

Good questions all. Just to let you know where I am coming from I am in my late 20s and am working on a post-graduate degree. Needless to say I don't make a lot of money in the first place. Nor do I come from money.

I don't own my own home, I rent. So things like property taxes influence me indirectly and it is hard for me to gauge the true magnitude of their cost. Doesn't mean that I don't pay them though.

I don't have kids. But having gone through college not that long ago I know how expensive it is. It is a huge burden, and becomes increasingly so over time. Honestly, right now, I give it less than 50-50 odds that I have kids at all. I think there are a lot of people my age that feel that way because of future uncertainly. Could change with the right woman I guess though from what I hear...

I don't take a lot of pleasure paying state or federal income taxes. On the other hand I like living in a city, state, and nation with decent infrastructure, buses that work, good schools, public services that work, etc. I should say that I have spent a decent amount of time overseas and have lots of friends from Europe, so my view on tax rates in America is not typical. For example, I have gone months paying $10 for a beer, $9 for a gallon of gas, and a 25% value added tax on everything I buy. That said, it does make you have to really want something to buy it!

I totally agree with you that it is hard for you to do all of those things. I too wish that you had more disposable income. That is why I am not an advocate for raising taxes on the middle-class. However, I am for raising taxes on the upper-class; e.g. those that could send their kids to college, buy a huge house, afford a new boat every other year, and still have plenty of left over. I guess it is odd (to say the least) to see many of my friends here struggle to take a 5-10% pay cut while those making millions remain untouched. Doesn't make sense to me. Where is the "shared sacrifice" in that?

As an aside, I would agree with the Tea Party line "Taxed Enough Already." The problem is that the Tea Party has bought the line that all taxes are evil, and that when people talk about increasing revenue it must be on their backs. That is demonstrably false, but by resisting increasing taxes on those who could actually afford it, we the "little people" end up paying taxes indirectly via cuts to education, health care, basic services provided by public employees, increased traffic ticket prices and state service fees, decaying public roads and bridges, lack of mass transit, etc. Nothing is free. A tax cut to the rich becomes either a tax increase or a service decrease to you. There is no way around it. If you can live with that, fine, but at least come to grips with the fact that your quality of life is suffering to support someone else's living high on the hog.

Maybe when I get older I will think differently. Who knows? When I was younger I was definitely much more conservative than I am now.

Jamin, Being 20 something and fresh out of college you have likely spent the 16 of the last 20+ years in very liberal biased environments. Most of our nations education institutions are. Being immursed in such an environment will generally instill those values into you. A mild form of brainwashing no matter how intentional/ unintentional. I like you had very liberal thinking (or not thinking)at the age of 22. It was real life experience and thinking for myself that brought me to my more conservative ideals. Dont feel bad, Winston Churchill said "if you are not a liberal when you are young, you have no heart. If you are not conservative when you are old, you have no brain." You have likely been educated and hanging around those who are on the recieving end of government money, teachers, profeesors, and students looking for loans and grants. This group also has very little exposure to private enterprise, and its realities. Dan akroid plaid a college researcher in ghost busters, his character spoke of the private sector saying "You don't know what it is like in the private sector, they expect results."
Some things that you should get over that have been instilled in you is your envy, or at least your idea that if someone has more than you it should be taken away. That is stealing, they have more, so what, who is to say what is to much? They pay taxes, create jobs and spend their money on stuff (goods and services) you and I get paid to provide. they are not bad, they just have more money. Taking it from them just because they are outnumbered in the voting pool is a punishment, nothing less than mob mentality saying we as a group are strong, lets roll that guy over there and take what he has. There is something very wrong with taking from those that produce and giving it to those that do not. Imagine working at a job where the least productive employees recieved the biggest raises, what would you do over time, probably reduce your production to get in on the cash. It should be hard to be jobless and non-productive, and it should be rewarding to be industrious. If you must have envy use it as motivation to work harder and take some risks to see where you can get. I am working on a multi-million dollar home right now, the guy started a buisness importing nuts and dried fruit. I am thankfull he is spending the money he earned and keeping me employeed I also find myself saying whay didnt I do that, not whay does this guy get to keep the money that he EARNED.

If you have a chance you should try to start a small business, It would change your thinking.

Hi Dave,

Yes I am young, but just to dispel some of what you might assume about me and my background;

I grew up in a very conservative area, and went to a small, Christian liberal arts college. I would not call either of them remotely close to a place where liberal brainwashing takes place. In fact I would argue just the opposite.

I do spend a lot of time with teachers and professors and the like. But I also spend a lot of time with people that are not, including people like my mom who owned and operated her own small business and my dad who works in a factory.

I strongly dispute your belief that I am an envious person. I am very happy with my life and I don't envy anyone who makes more than me (which is almost everybody). I am also very thankful for the little luxuries that I get to enjoy, as well as my basic necessities that are met everyday. As to the lesser charge of thinking that we should take from those who have more, that is a corruption of my argument. I don't think we should take from those who have more simply because they have more. I think we should because our country needs the money and it seems to me to be the most ethical way to solve our problems.

All I am saying, and I am just going to say it once more because I doubt either of us is going to change our mind (isn't this how all the "Off Topic" conversations end?! :), is that I want some more balance in how our government is funded and how its people's goals and aspirations are supported. Do I want to "steal" from the rich and give to the poor? Not really. Do I think it would be a good idea to tax those with much a little more so that those with little suffer less and have access to basic services? Most definitely. I mean honestly, do you really think that there is any good reason for Warren Buffett and others like him to pay lower taxes than you do? C'mon!

It might be hard to believe, but I want the same things that you do. A country where hard work is rewarded, people are free to chase their dreams, and the government functions to help and not hinder its citizens. I just happen to believe that part of that requires, *gasp*, a redistribution of wealth. Yes I said it. I believe that for us to create a viable, functional, and stable society we must as a collective ask those at the top to contribute a greater proportion of their earnings to the pot so that those at the bottom may be spared. Call me a radical but that is what I believe. I also happen to believe that my vision of helping the down-and-out and your vision of encouraging and rewarding free enterprise can happen at the same time. I hope that someday we get there.

Starting a small business may change my mind. Perhaps time, or experience, or something else will too. Who knows, I am open to being wrong. I just want to end saying that things are really freaking complicated in this world, and I would hesitate before jumping on any platform too strongly. I think there is a healthy middle ground when it comes to taxes, and right now I don't think we are anywhere close.

Thanks again for the good conversation. Dave, or Dave, or Tom, or Lee, if any or all of you are ever in Madison, first beer is on me.

Peace

Did I hear free beer?    There's a good chance the filling/ brewing equipment is made by the company I work for, supporting my company, and in effect, me.

As to David's questions.

I do own my own home. Taxes are higher than some states, but not as bad as a lot of others. I have no kids, and unfortunately probably won't, but you never know. Kids are expensive, I am fully aware of that. I pay taxes in one of the best school districts in the state. I might as well have a kid or 2;)

I'm a bit older than hansel, at 36 next tuesday the 8th.

I've got to say, it's quite fun watching all you guys get schooled by a much younger more educated person than yourselves.