Wisconsin politics
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Printed Date: May-18-2024 at 12:52am
Topic: Wisconsin politics
Posted By: OverMyHead
Subject: Wisconsin politics
Date Posted: February-21-2011 at 3:46am
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Is anyone else bothered by the situation in Wisconsin? If I left the state in order to avoid doing my job because I did not like the way it was going, I would be fired. Same if I went to protest at the capital for three days and my place of employment had to be shut down while I was gone. What happened to it being about "the children" like I hear every time a referendom comes up? What about the parents who had to find day care on short notice or miss work? I dont understand how they get away with this stuff, if their unions are that strong, then they are making the point of how badly things need to be changed. I hope parents are pressuring administrators to discipline those involved. As for the legislators, we have a representative democracy, if you have the votes you are representing the will of the people, if not, suck it up. I hope the voters remember who is doing their job and who acted like spoiled brats and refused to play when they could not get their way. The govenor wants to reconviene, it sounds like they can act on anything non budget related without the dems, I hope they take full advantage of it. ------------- For thousands of years men have felt the irresistible urge to go to sea, and many of them died. Things got better after they invented boats. 1987 Ski Nautique |
Replies:
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: February-21-2011 at 9:44am
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revolutions are contagious, the internet can now get you layed quicker, and start uprisings much quicker ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: Okie Boarder
Date Posted: February-21-2011 at 4:30pm
| It's a shame the way it being handled. I also don't think those teachers have much to complain about considering what is being offered. The Governor is doing exactly what he promised in his campaign, yet there is protest. I think unions have done nothing but cause problems with education. |
Posted By: quinner
Date Posted: February-21-2011 at 4:51pm
Doesn't the later need to come before the former?? We should just Nuke Wisco and all those Packer Fans!  ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1143" rel="nofollow - Mi Bowt |
eric lavine wrote:Posted By: davidg
Date Posted: February-21-2011 at 5:03pm
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The teachers unions don't know how good they have it. Currently paying almost nothing toward their pensions (what are pensions anyway????) and their healthcare. Times are a changing, and they are squealing like stuck pigs to hang onto the way it used to be. The Federal Gov't and the states just can't afford it anymore. I hope Scott Walker (WI Governor) stands his ground. We need more like him and Chris Christy from NJ.
Poll Question: Should government employees even have unions for collective bargaining? |
Posted By: horkn
Date Posted: February-21-2011 at 9:55pm
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This one is really messy guys.
Living here in WI, I see the real effects of this. Walker never really proposed to do what he is attempting to do with state workers in his campaign. He is also shutting all forms of communication down and rejecting to talk this over. It's a radical change from what was the norm, so he's rocking the boat by doing this. Now, I am actually all for what he is doing, but the last couple of days he has stuck his head in the sand has made him look much worse than if he opened his ears. Something like this needs to be talked about, not simply voted on. Another thing is that all these other states are watching how this plays out. That only adds to the issue. ------------- 78 martinique- refloored, reinforced, stringers re glassed, re engineered interior GT40P heads Edelbrock Performer intake acme 4 blade http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v64/horkn/fish/nautique.jpg |
Posted By: OverMyHead
Date Posted: February-21-2011 at 10:06pm
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How about the ears of the dems that left the state? There is a process, and I see them as sore losers, Remember, Barack told us as he rammed healthcare down our throats that elections have consequensces. The dems lost because of their policies and spending, and now they are thumbing their noses at the process. If we can selectively ignore the process when it is not to our advantage, than what do we have left? ------------- For thousands of years men have felt the irresistible urge to go to sea, and many of them died. Things got better after they invented boats. 1987 Ski Nautique |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: February-21-2011 at 10:18pm
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and the outcome may have a domino effect? ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: February-21-2011 at 10:33pm
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teachers in our district have an average salary of about 55k, thats for 9 months of work, add in christmas break, spring break, all the busht other days..and then they retire on a great state pension, if you aquire all your sick days and dont take vacations, that to gets thrown in a big fat check at retirement time.....you ever hear a teacher complain??? they would complain about the rope at their hanging ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: davidg
Date Posted: February-21-2011 at 11:49pm
Tom.....I know you live in WI, and are near the belly of the beast, and I am glad to hear you are for what Walker is doing, BUT....... Who is not communicating? Its not Walker and the conservatives that hightailed it for IL to get out of a voting for the bill. You can't talk to people that aren't there. These things need discussion? Remember when Obama told us all "He Won" the election as he proceeded to jam Healthcare up all of our ARSES? Well, he was right. I hated what he did, but, that is democracy. He had the majority on his side, and he did it what he believed in. Now the shoe is on the other foot, both in Washington, and in Madison. The unions and the politicians have had a very cozy relationship for far too long. The public unions support and give big $$$ to the Democrats>>>>The Democrats get elected and vote for paying the public union members fat salaries/pensions/benefits>>>>>Repeat Process until the government is broke. |
Posted By: skicat2001
Date Posted: February-21-2011 at 11:56pm
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The main problem here is "liberal" democrats want crap for free! The state is broke as of the other liberal states of Ohio, and Illinois. Go figure!! Tax payers have to chip in on the state income to allow other adderess to come out.For example, If the state has 1 billion dollars in debit, and you only have 500 million only coming in, well you gonna have to find more income to fix the other 500 million. It is easy add and subtraction. There are many things you need and crap you dont. Time to trim the fat in these states. ------------- 1985 CC 2001-SOLD Lee Michael Johnson |
Posted By: horkn
Date Posted: February-22-2011 at 1:54am
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The problem is that walker won't listen to the dems that want to talk about it.
Also, some thing that many folks may not be hearing about is that walker is selectively targeting state employees, not all groups of State employees. Walker is not cutting anything from firefighters, and one other state group that just so happened to contribute funds and backing to his campaign. If you are going to cut some state workers benefits, then do it across the board. The unions are willing to negotiate, , the dems are too, but walker is not. When one comes to the table with a proposal, one cannot expect that every thing you are expecting to get from a mediation session. Heck, the NFL and owners is in mediation now with their CBA, and it sounds like both sides are willing to budge and meet in the middle. One big issue I have is that walker is trying to cut taxes on the wealthy, but not for the middle and lower classes. That in my mind is where the deficit can be made up. That point is also where the "free" things come from. I mean after all, the middle class is a dying breed, in fact may very well be run into the lower class, while the richest people only prosper more. ------------- 78 martinique- refloored, reinforced, stringers re glassed, re engineered interior GT40P heads Edelbrock Performer intake acme 4 blade http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v64/horkn/fish/nautique.jpg |
Posted By: OverMyHead
Date Posted: February-22-2011 at 10:29am
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Tom, the teachers have reaped hugh bennifits paying off democrats with donations, essentially recieving unfair treatment in their favor, and they never complained about the unfairness, now they backed the wrong guy and they are upset about unfair treatment. The average teacher can retire at 50 with a 50,000 year retirement bennifit fot life, most will be recieving retiremnet income for 30 years. For you or I to get thet we would have to have saved 1.7 million prior to retirment, so the average teacher is effectively retiring a multi-millionaire, do you or will you have 1.7 million saved at retirement? I will not and yet my tax dollars are going to insure that teachers will, and I pay that all year round, not just nine months worth like the teachers work. why do I have to pay them first and more then I may ever have? Tell me how this is fair? The Wisconsin govenor is not eliminating collective bargaining, just putting in some checks and balances. Like the housing crisis, government has created and artificial retirement bubble for its employees that cannot be maintained. time to burst the bubble. ------------- For thousands of years men have felt the irresistible urge to go to sea, and many of them died. Things got better after they invented boats. 1987 Ski Nautique |
Posted By: OverMyHead
Date Posted: February-22-2011 at 10:37am
The top 1% of wage earners pay 40% of the nations tax burden. The top 5% pay 60%, so the top 5% pay more than the bottom 95%, the top 5% are also the nations job creators. The bottom 40 percent recive checks, and use the bulk of government services. How can you cut taxes for the lower class when they are not only not paying any but recieving checks? changes for the middle class involve such a small amount of the gross collected that they are inneffectual, to stimulate the economy you have to cut taxes for those that are paying them in a significant amount. ------------- For thousands of years men have felt the irresistible urge to go to sea, and many of them died. Things got better after they invented boats. 1987 Ski Nautique |
Posted By: skicat2001
Date Posted: February-22-2011 at 11:48am
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My personal opnion these union's are the big issue ------------- 1985 CC 2001-SOLD Lee Michael Johnson |
Posted By: horkn
Date Posted: February-23-2011 at 1:54am
I agree. Get rid of them as they are not needed anymore. Unions were important pre OSHA and workmans comp, and all the legal rights of workers. Walker wants to pretty much eliminate the collective bargaining. In addition to that, his no compromises attitude makes him come off as brash, uneducated, and heartless. As far as the taxes thing, that logic sounds like it might work, but then why are the rich still getting much richer and the poor and middle class only going down hill? These tactics have been proven time and time again that that theory does not hold up in practice. I saw his "fireside chat" tonight. It was very scripted (as expected, and that made him seem very unconvincing), and full of holes. Although I still agree that he is pretty much doing the right thing, but going at it completely wrong. The way he is handling this makes it look like he is carrying out a party agenda, and not the agenda of making the state solvent again. I'm sure this will get messier soon. ------------- 78 martinique- refloored, reinforced, stringers re glassed, re engineered interior GT40P heads Edelbrock Performer intake acme 4 blade http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v64/horkn/fish/nautique.jpg |
Posted By: OverMyHead
Date Posted: February-23-2011 at 2:49am
The tax code is supposed to pay for government services, not to determine who is rich and who is not or to re-distribute wealth.You can have prospeity or try to have income equity, but you will never get both. you have to punish producers to pay those with less money and that will always reduce the reward for producing. You may be to young to remember life under Jimmy Carter, he was kind of Obama light. His policys left the country with double digit unemployment, and high inflation. Home mortgages where up near 20%. It was not a fun time. Reagan came in and dropped the top tax rates, Unemployment went down below 5%, the economy grew, and government collections increased. how do you drop rates and increase income, you make it up on volume. It has been done by others including JFK and it works every time. It will never work to redistribute income, the only way to bring to bring people up is to employ them and then not punish them with excessive taxes once they are. Our system may not be perfect but but we still have the richest poor in the world. ------------- For thousands of years men have felt the irresistible urge to go to sea, and many of them died. Things got better after they invented boats. 1987 Ski Nautique |
Posted By: horkn
Date Posted: February-23-2011 at 4:23am
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Yeah, reaganomics worked really well. ;)
Now Under Clinton, that was easily the best time for non mega rich folks to make money. I was in college for most of those years, but my Fiance raked it in then. Trust me, I see first hand how the mega rich profit during times like the ones we have been in. ------------- 78 martinique- refloored, reinforced, stringers re glassed, re engineered interior GT40P heads Edelbrock Performer intake acme 4 blade http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v64/horkn/fish/nautique.jpg |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: February-24-2011 at 10:23am
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heres thre fcn thing, when times are good and everyone is squeezing the system, we all have a right to capitalize....when times are not going so good its time to make some concessions.
fck those teachers or any state employee, you can aquire 1000 hours comp time over the course of 20 years and get paid at your current rate, not at the rate when you were making half of the money when you aquired the comped days. use them or lose them. I dont know what people are thinking when a state says were broke, its means "we dont have any fcn money", plain and simple not to hard to understand, take a concession or compete for a 12.00 an hour Autozone job. I was reading an article about taking a vacation during the school year and missing school days, all the teachers did was bitch about the extra work it was for them to put together the curriculum for that student while he was away. these boys down here, which I know a ton of them would not take concessions when they were employed at LTV steel, they robbed that company blind, I see them all the time, painting houses, installing windows, talking about the good old days. Im not anti-union, but im smart enough to recognize when someone says their broke, their not bull***************ting you ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: skicat2001
Date Posted: February-24-2011 at 10:43pm
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You got that right eric. Wisconsin is broke broke.. Bad! I am rooting and sticking up for the govenor of Wisconsin to fix it. He will..
P.S. Democrats! Run Forest, Run!!!!
No Class! ------------- 1985 CC 2001-SOLD Lee Michael Johnson |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: February-25-2011 at 9:18am
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its really funny when I talk to these guy that were employed by LTV, I remember working down there for OEM warranty work and being pulled aside and the guys down there telling me not to work so hard because your making us look bad, another guy stood by me all day everyday collecting at the time I believe 28.00 an hour, he was an operater diagnosed with epilepsy, but wasnt allowed on any of the equipment...I just remember him saying so anti fcn company "they cant touch me". But on the other hand I talk to these AT and T guys and i get the line of what they deserve because they have a pretty strong union..
Recently, a man was charged with unfair work practices here in Ohio, they clipped him for 386k, the reason was he wasnt paying OT that his employees worked, and wasnt paying minimum wage, now, the state stepped in because there are laws that govern work practices. When your working for a union and reapping the rewards its great, but, when you worked for the union in the past and lost your job becasue of union realted issues and strong arming businesses and your the new fix it man in town, these guy's dont have much good to say about the unions. where the fck is the union in Wal-mart? I guess nobody cares as long as the prices stay low???? ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: malibud
Date Posted: February-25-2011 at 11:05am
| Ok am a teacher on my way to work. After 11 years of service 2 Bachelors and a masters degree I make 42000 a year(havent seen a cost of living increase in 3 years ) . After the end of 3o years I can collect a 20,000 a year retirement. I am happy not complaining but setting the record straight. |
Posted By: skierox
Date Posted: February-25-2011 at 4:22pm
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This one really bothers me. My caution would be to look into your information more closely, learn the facts, become better informed and try not to rely on the opinions of others.
Best thing to do is call your local school district and get the phone number to the union office. Get informed about teacher pensions, when and at what stages teachers can retire, how payment takes place and what it cost teachers for health care. In almost all districts across the country teacher contracts have not kept up with inflation along with rising health care cost, which means that many teachers have lost pay increases over the last 3-5 years, but are still willing to take a pay-freeze under the current economic conditions. Koch brothers are looking at eliminating close to 160 jobs in Green Bay, along with cuts to other facilities that they own to help save cost, but both brothers (billionaires) were willing to take an 11 million dollar pay increase. How much money does someone really need to stay satisfied or happy? Who will buy their products when the gap between the rich and the poor become so large. Ancient Roman history would be a good place to start! Best advice is to get informed and remember all members on this site come from a variety of backgrounds. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=4101 - Former Owner of 89 Nautique /diaries/details.asp?ID=4100 - My 05 Nautique /diaries/details.asp?ID=4099 - My 99 Nautique |
Posted By: bkhallpass
Date Posted: February-25-2011 at 4:40pm
Does this imply that you believe across the country that private sector jobs have kept up with inflation, that private sector employeess have not faces rising health care costs and more out of pocket expenses for health and retirement benefits. Does this imply that you beleive across the country that those in private sector have not faced pay cuts, much less pay freeze? Just curious. BKH ------------- Livin' the Dream |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: February-25-2011 at 4:52pm
Speaking of the private sector, I'm still trying to live with a 5 year old 20% pay cut and medical that costs me $230.00 per week! Cost of living increase? What's that? My home equitity loan is just about maxed out!! ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: C-Bass
Date Posted: February-25-2011 at 4:59pm
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Good points Brian as usual.
Everyone knows it's going to take sacrifices to get the country back in financial order...but nobody acts like it should be them that needs to be making any sacrifices. ------------- Craig 67 SN 73 SN http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=6103" rel="nofollow - 99 Sport 85SN |
Posted By: bkhallpass
Date Posted: February-25-2011 at 5:05pm
Yes, a good point as well. People do tend to want to preserve their own lifestyles. The thing is, just as Pete sites above, there are many who have already made significant sacrifices. BKH ------------- Livin' the Dream |
Posted By: PAPA
Date Posted: February-25-2011 at 5:06pm
| On another note concerning the private sector, seems like all the rich fat cats on Wall St. and in the banking industry have forgotten about any pay freeze. Bank of America CEO and Goldman Sachs CEO get huge payraises. You can't convince me these individuals really deserve the pay that they get. The rich get richer while the common man gets poorer. Seems like it's the new American way. |
Posted By: quinner
Date Posted: February-25-2011 at 5:56pm
Pay at all would be Great!! Spent over 12 months without paying myself a dime, currently paying myself equal to what I earned 20 years ago and my IRA has not seen a contribution in almost 2 years. Every year I cut more out of my health care plan just to keep premium increases under 20%. Welcome to the Private Sector of the Self employed. Never though I would rather be on the Governments Payroll, today not so sure. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1143" rel="nofollow - Mi Bowt |
Posted By: davidg
Date Posted: February-25-2011 at 6:03pm
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I work with a lady who lives in California whose husband is a firefighter. He will retire at 53 years old, and collect a pension of $90-$100K+/Yr. (his current salary)for the rest of his life. I also know of a retired kindergarten teacher here in my home town in IL, collecting a pension of $90K/year, and will for the rest of her life.
Do you think these people have paid in that much to be able to collect that amount for the rest of their years?? I don't think so. Is it any wonder that California, Illinois, and New Jersey (and other states) are in such bad shape with under-funded pension liabilities in the BILLIONS of dollars. What would be wrong with paying all public workers fair and competitive salaries and giving them 401K's that they make contributions toward just like we in the private sector do? |
Posted By: OverMyHead
Date Posted: February-25-2011 at 7:39pm
Thank you for your service as a teacher, it takes a speacil kind of person to do that job. I served the public as a paramedic for over 20 years, but working for a private company, I have a bachelors degree. I worked 24 hour shifts 10 days a month or 2900 hours a year vs 2080 for a standard 40 hour week to make make about $53,000 my last year, or 18.27 per hour for a stressful demanding job. When I left my employer paid pension was valued 46,000 dollars. If I had stayed it would have grown to about $ 70,000 or three and 1/2 years at 20,000 per year. Assuming you work 50 hour weeks including your class prep for 9 months a year,(giving you credit for christmas vacation, spring break and MEA) you are working 1950 hours per year, and are making 21.53 per hour for a demanding , high stress job serving the public as a government employee. Also assuming you began teaching out of college(age 25) you can retire at 55. If you pass away at 80 you recieve (25x 20,000) $500,00 in retirement. Live to 100 (I'm pulling for you!) you get $900,000. Meanwhile I need to severly supplement my $70,000 retirement to the tune of $430,000 with my own funds to keep up with you, and need to be gone by 80 or I'm in financial trouble. In my current construction career, I have taken a hourly pay cut over the last two yearsof $5 or $10,400 if I were working 40 hour weeks. I also lost all of my healthcare benefits this May. I now pay 930 dollars per month for family coverage, Add to that shorter work week, some 24, some 32,My wages are down 11,000 this year. As I said my health costs are up by 10 grand, so I am operating on 67% of my former income. Meanwhile my city could care less and my property taxes that pay for government employess benefits remain at 100% of what they were two years ago. I am not complaining (much) I choose my path, just setting the record strait. ------------- For thousands of years men have felt the irresistible urge to go to sea, and many of them died. Things got better after they invented boats. 1987 Ski Nautique |
Posted By: OverMyHead
Date Posted: February-25-2011 at 7:41pm
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Also, I sold my dream cabin this year to stay afloat and off of goverment programs. For that the government took $15,000. ------------- For thousands of years men have felt the irresistible urge to go to sea, and many of them died. Things got better after they invented boats. 1987 Ski Nautique |
Posted By: horkn
Date Posted: February-25-2011 at 9:59pm
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Playing devil's advocate, Teachers, making 40k a year remember that they get paid that for only working 2/3rds of the year compared to normal 5 day work week workers.
I need to add that several pro union republican voters are very torn right now. A few days into this would be bill last week, WI public opinion sided 60% or so with Walker's plan, and now that public opinion has switched the other way to like 62% in opposition to Wanker's proposal. A few weeks ago when he Packers won the super bowl, walker was an announcer in the title rally / Lombardi Trophy homecoming at Lambeau Field. He was the only one to get jeered even well before proposing this new bill. Had he proposed this bill before the superbowl, he would have been booed out of the stadium. Even then, the real issue is Walker's lack of willing to negotiate at all. Apparently he needs a lesson in how a democracy works. I hear Egypt, and Cuba need new leaders. ------------- 78 martinique- refloored, reinforced, stringers re glassed, re engineered interior GT40P heads Edelbrock Performer intake acme 4 blade http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v64/horkn/fish/nautique.jpg |
Posted By: skicat2001
Date Posted: February-25-2011 at 10:34pm
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This is a complete another issue, but what fires me up is the demi's will blantley think that kadfi is not a terriost. Now if he is not a terriost, I must be a angle from heaven.
My hats of to the teacher. Kids these days are awful and I feel for teachers. 40k.. Needs to be about 60k. No guidance of a error in there life. There no penalty to a kid doing wrong these days. Hang in there guys! 2012 is coming sooner than you think. Time to clean house again! On Senate side off course...  ------------- 1985 CC 2001-SOLD Lee Michael Johnson |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: February-26-2011 at 10:42am
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Ski, your so anti demmy, anti healthcare, anti government,
a demmy sent gadafy a little message in the 90's....never heard from him again until recently and thats only cause his people are sick of his antics. teachers have absolutly nothing to do with a kids demeaner, it starts at home. ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: malibud
Date Posted: February-26-2011 at 10:45am
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Speaking as a teacher, seeing what the wisconsin workers got as a union was way too much. As with many Unions they work well in the beginning and then get way too greedy. I guess that is what unions do, advocate for more money until there is no more money. Seemed to happen with the detroit workers.
As far as being a state worker/teacher I do not make any appologies for working 9-10 months. Anybody who wants to go to school and work for it etc. It is a free country. In good times i still make less than my equivalent degree in the private sector and do not get to ride the wave. If you cut education we kind of shoot ourselves in the foot. Prison is much more expensive than school. those that drop out have a much higher chance of going. Why can't we cut defense ? Is there too many people profiting from war ? seems like a billion a day for Iraq could go a long way here |
Posted By: OverMyHead
Date Posted: February-26-2011 at 12:24pm
I am curious how much Wisconsins defense budget is and what could be cut? ------------- For thousands of years men have felt the irresistible urge to go to sea, and many of them died. Things got better after they invented boats. 1987 Ski Nautique |
Posted By: malibud
Date Posted: February-26-2011 at 12:56pm
| the feds funnel $ to wisconsin for education .... we could start with d*ck chenny and haliburton |
Posted By: horkn
Date Posted: February-26-2011 at 1:41pm
I wouldn't make a single apology for working less than 12 months and making 40k either. I feel that still is too low for what teachers do for so many people's kids. There are plenty of people with 4 year degrees in normal 40 hour 1st shift office jobs make the same kind of money you do, but have to do it on 12 months of work. As to Wi teachers making too much, My mom was a teacher in Wi, one of my cousins is, 2 of my buddies' wives and my ex fiance's dad were all WI teachers all over the state, one even in Milwaukee now. All except the milwaukee (MPS) teacher make the same money you mentioned earlier. Also, yes it does start at home, parents still have to do their parenting, which is why I feel it's no problem that the extra $$ the milwaukee teacher I know makes more than the others. Any teacher hearing her stories would say the same. "Waiting for superman" apparently had parts filmed in Milwaukee schools. ------------- 78 martinique- refloored, reinforced, stringers re glassed, re engineered interior GT40P heads Edelbrock Performer intake acme 4 blade http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v64/horkn/fish/nautique.jpg |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: February-26-2011 at 4:01pm
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Mark,
Where are you?? Any comments? Guys, Mark (laurel lake skier) is a teacher in Wisconsin and I hear even went to Madison. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: February-27-2011 at 10:49am
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Malibud, they do want to privatize the correction system, only because its more effecient and closely monitered, I hope you teachers didnt think it was a harsh statement that i made earlier about demeaner, it wasnt meant that way....it was meant as to, it is not your responsibility to instill values, it satrts at home...if you dont want kids shooting up the schools, dont keep loaded guns at home. I dont know how my kids will turn out, but i give them the necessary tools they need to make conscience decisions to hopefully lead them down the good path... ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: skicat2001
Date Posted: February-27-2011 at 4:03pm
Yes sir.. Hate the goverment, big goverment transactions, i like some demmy's but all have amd stand for what I am against. So mostly anti demi. Healthcare reform I am against goverment taking over its stand and forcing people to buy something. The current healthcare yes sir is broke in several areas, but it can be fixed. But you do not need to act on goverment control and polocies to fix it. The thing you have to understand is when the demmis get in there and raise taxes, over extend themselves. I always ask myself this question? Where is the money going to come from? 99.9% it comes from the tax payer, so that puts America and state goverments in high debit that we do not need. AMERICA LOVES LOW TAXES, LOW GOVERMENT CONTROL, JOB CREATION, AND STRONG BORDERS! Far as gadfi bro, we need to get him and murder him or put him in prison. He is a terriost and will strike again. He can not be trusted.  ------------- 1985 CC 2001-SOLD Lee Michael Johnson |
Posted By: horkn
Date Posted: February-27-2011 at 5:10pm
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If you look at how it really is, democrats tax middle and lower class less, and tax upper class more. Republicans tax the rich less, because they comprise the majority of the upper class.
Voting with your pocketbook is the smart way to do it. Now, if there is a non monetary policy that you believe in enough to go against this logic, then you vote for that, rather than the $$ aspect. I don't think anyone disagrees about what to do with Qaddafi. Pres Obama wants him out, so do the repubs. Now we just need to get him out of Egypt. Until then , enjoy 5 dollar a gallon gas. uggg...  ------------- 78 martinique- refloored, reinforced, stringers re glassed, re engineered interior GT40P heads Edelbrock Performer intake acme 4 blade http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v64/horkn/fish/nautique.jpg |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: February-27-2011 at 5:43pm
Tom, Do you have any hard written data to back this statement up or is it just something you pulled out of your a**? ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: horkn
Date Posted: February-27-2011 at 6:35pm
Go look it up. It's definitely nothing I've made up. I've simply paid attention to what is brought up by both sides. ------------- 78 martinique- refloored, reinforced, stringers re glassed, re engineered interior GT40P heads Edelbrock Performer intake acme 4 blade http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v64/horkn/fish/nautique.jpg |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: February-27-2011 at 8:23pm
Tom, I have been paying attention however, I have not seen any hard facts to support your rather blatant general statement. Why should I go searching? I asked for facts and from your first answer it sure looks like you don’t have them?? Also, are you just referencing Wisconsin or the nation? ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: sweet77
Date Posted: February-27-2011 at 9:27pm
|
Very young man chiming in. My wife and I are both the ages of 24 and 23.I do believe my wife has a good job as an elementary school teacher and she does have the summers off. Now in Florida where we live theres not many teachers here making 55k. if that was possible id have a brand new 200 CB in my garage.However my wife and i do not have children and i make good money for someone my age so every year around april i see the amount of taxes ive paid in and it makes me sick. Last year i went to my accountant and asked him why all my friends get money back on there taxes and i dont? he simply said you make to much money. now on what horkn said is kind of true. my accountant also told me about a young man about my age made $16000.00 dollars year before last and accidentally got his girlfriend pregnant he received 3800.00 back this is BullS@$^. If you look at what a normal baby sitter makes with the amount of kids they watch compared to what teachers make teachers should make 100,000 dollars a year and teachers educate your children. Sooooo do i think there overpaid no i do NOT. and the government is extremely screwed up in all aspects from the white house all the way down . And ERIC BTW i agree totally that kids upbringing at home is where it all starts but My two brothers as well as myself grew up with my fathers gun collection and well as our own starting around the age of 7 or 8. Please do not blame the GUNS as you said blame the parent ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=5528&sort=&pagenum=1" rel="nofollow - 76 Nautique "If you do what you always did,You'll get what you always got!" "An empty wagon makes t |
Posted By: Hansel
Date Posted: February-28-2011 at 12:16am
Hi Pete, I know you are a good man and I don't want to get on your case. However, if you were paying any attention last December when Republicans (and most sadly Obama as well) pushed for the extension of the Bush Era Tax Cuts, then I think it would be very obvious that what Tom said above is true at the Federal level. Here in Wisconsin it is also true, since Gov. Walker pushed major tax cuts for corporations only a month ago, while seeking to balance the fiscal "crisis" on middle-income state workers. Which, though not *technically a tax, I think any sane person would agree is a functional equivalent. If you (not just you Pete, but everyone) are not aware the wealth is being rapidly transferred from even wealthy people to support the uber-wealthy, you are not paying attention. This has been extensively written about, and the pace has quickened recently as people catch on to the magnitude of the problem. If you wonder why you pay such high taxes, you should also wonder why Warren Buffet pays a higher tax rate (uber-rich) than does his secretary (you). If you are against taxing the filthy rich and corporations, you are free to do so. But you should at least know that in doing so you are cutting your own economic throat. And before you tell me "Wait! We can't tax the job creators!" I ask you "Where are the jobs today?" since we have historically low corporate and upper-income taxes. How much lower can we go? Maybe we should just skip the next decade or so and just start paying them to employ us. Oh wait... That is what we are already doing. ------------- "The only prudence in fishermen is that designed to set the stage for taking yet another, and perhaps a longer, chance." -Aldo Leopold |
Posted By: OverMyHead
Date Posted: February-28-2011 at 2:16am
|
Ok Tom, I have done the reaserch for you, I will try to sum it up. I am using the married filling jointly data for each year. In 1976 under Gerald fords(Republican) last year there were 16 seperate tax brackets ranging from 14% to 70%,the highest kicking in @ $200,000. Under Carter (democrat) a 0 % bracket was established for those under $3,400 and the brackets wsere adjusted up slightly easing the burden on the poor and middle class. At the end of Carters term unemploymnet was 9.7%
Under Reagan the number of brackets went from 16 to 15 to 5 and finally two. rates droped initially to a high of 50% then to 28%for everyone over 32,000. Definitly helped the rich but under Carter if you made over 32,000, you were in a 43% bracket, so I would say all were helped. Unemployment went form 9.7% to 5.3 percent, some 4 million new jobs were created which had to help- the middle class, and dispite the lower taxes, government collections increased. By 1993 under Bush 1 (republican), there were four brackets ranging from 15 to 39.6 percent for those over 250,000. the 28% bracket did not kick in till 36,000. looks to me like he nailed the upper middle class and the rich. Under Clinton(democrat)little changed other than the brackets all adjusting up to ease things on the lower and middle class. Under evil GW Bush, the bottom rate went from 15% to 10% giving the poor the largest percentage of decrease 5%, the top bracket went down to 35% a 4.6% decrease. unemployment at the end of his term was 6%. Under Obama, the threat of tax increases based on out of control sepending have driven unemployment to 9%. Does this seem to match your broad statement you get from paying attention? You must be paying attention to public radio and CBS. ------------- For thousands of years men have felt the irresistible urge to go to sea, and many of them died. Things got better after they invented boats. 1987 Ski Nautique |
Posted By: OverMyHead
Date Posted: February-28-2011 at 3:31am
|
As far as pay for any given job, The law of supply and demand kicks in. As a 911 paramedic, I performed skills such as intubation, defibrillation, giving meds on written protocals,things normally reserved for physicians. I performed these skills in moving ambulances, ditches, and next to burning buildings. I spent time alone in the back of ambulances with unrestrained schizophrenics, drove lights and sirens through snow storms that closed schools,I had a chimney bounce of the side of my ambulance while I was in it treating a heart patient during straight line winds. All this earned me the above $21 an hour, the problem is there were people in line to get my job out of love/passion for the career. It is the same with teaching, there are too many good people that like to work with kids. The more supply the less it is worth. As a hardood floor installer I have suffered cuts as mentioned above but I am doing way better than most in my industry, only a small percentage of us are working and people would kill for my job. So I am not calling in sick or protesting, I am working, taking care of the customers that write the checks, doing my best to help my company make a profit so I can stay working. I have a personal problem when a business forces it problems onto its customers. I still hold a grudge against UPS for a package that got lost during their strike back in what, 1997? Their employees and managers made their internal problems mine, when getting paid by someone you owe them something, whether its private business or tax dollars. I will use Fedex when ever I have the option. I will also remember teachers calling in sick and closing schools the next time I hear "we need the referendom, its for the children". I hold government to a higher standard because they are taking the money from tax payers. I cannot choose the "other public school" like I can choose fedex to punish UPS. ------------- For thousands of years men have felt the irresistible urge to go to sea, and many of them died. Things got better after they invented boats. 1987 Ski Nautique |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: February-28-2011 at 10:02am
|
sweet, i wasnt blaming guns, i was refering to the parents...
if i knew now what i shouldve known then, i wouldve became a teacher...remember, Im outside looking in and i learned along time ago not to smack a gift horse in the ass. even at 40k a year, id be out hustling all summer lol for real though my biggest cost in the household is healthcare, im not one for sitting back and letting it roll, the healthcare system has 4 flat tires, i pay out of pocket, as time goes by and you employee/employer coverage diminishes as it does everyday, you will start to realize that healthcare turned into big business and bottem line... we really dont hear our europeon or canadian counterparts complaining about their healthcare system, must be something to it? ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: sweet77
Date Posted: February-28-2011 at 11:14am
|
i agree eric, healthcare is a joke. when i worked for anheuser-busch,i paid about 30.00 a month for healthcare,my wife pays about the same through the school board.but now that i am in business for myself i am find that for just my self a high deductible policy is about 200.00 a month now i realize that my former employer paid a portion of that for me but as soon as you throw a family plan into the mix like my father mother and brothers 18 an 12 it jumps to right at 1000.00 a month. Now if the country wants to go to a nationalized healthcare plan for the less fortunate thats fine however please do not push it on those who are paying for there own heathcare to finance it or even HAVE to take it. In my experience with hospitals and doctor good healthcare means good service. i dont want to go to the emergency room and sit with all the druggies and drunks. i wanna get in and out. and here in jacksonville Fl theres a bunch of that going on. im afraid if we switch to a nationalized heathcare plan there are going to be people that abuse it. and then when a real situation arises in my family were waiting on joe blow because he s got nothing better to do that night and hes got the sniffles.My last girlfriend was an RN and she said it happens all the time. I Know it might sound like im being a pompous jerk....and believe me im really not , i have just been in the real world long enough to know that there are so many sorry people out there collecting unemployment that could have jobs but there to sorry to go get them, why should they have healthcare on top of that. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=5528&sort=&pagenum=1" rel="nofollow - 76 Nautique "If you do what you always did,You'll get what you always got!" "An empty wagon makes t |
Posted By: OverMyHead
Date Posted: February-28-2011 at 11:16am
A lot of things to it, You will never here a story from our socialist bent mainstream media about it. You will never see Micheal Moore make a documentary about it, it does not fit their view. I do know Brittian banned(not just refused to pay for but banned for the nation to be "Fair")a very effective breast cancer drug due to cost. The average wait for an MRI in canada is months, hip surgery is over six months. people get used to thier conditions and do not complain much as they sit home form work waiting. Also it is not that big of a deal becasue if it gets to bad they can come here and pay out of pocket. What happens when "here" is not a viable option? ------------- For thousands of years men have felt the irresistible urge to go to sea, and many of them died. Things got better after they invented boats. 1987 Ski Nautique |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: February-28-2011 at 1:06pm
|
Jamin,
Thanks for filling in some of the blank spaces. I guess I was expecting some stats in black and white and not what I would consider opinions. Still, your explanation has more info in it. Yes, you are correct that even though I have been following the situation, evidently not to the detailed extent you have.  ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Hansel
Date Posted: February-28-2011 at 2:28pm
|
Hi Pete,
No worries! I like to follow politics, and I hope that I did not come across as too confrontational. That is never my intent. It is just that I believe that most of us are unaware of the growing wealth divide and its negative impact on our society. There is a nice piece in the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel today that touches on this topic and the current budget debate in Wisconsin; %20 - http://www.jsonline.com/news/opinion/116955013.html Like many of you, I believe that people who make a lot of money have the right to keep as much of it as possible. But the problem is this; money has to come from somewhere. Shall we take a small percentage from the very few who have very very much, or shall we take a large percentage from the very very many, some of which have very little (sorry for all the "very"s). Consider that YOU are likely one of the ones who is being asked for a large percentage. And should you be on of the few with much, consider that your sacrifice will in fact build a more stable, equitable society. And who is against that? Thanks again Pete. I would love to dig up more black and white stats and numbers on this, and might in the future. A little bogged down with things these days (plus going to protests!) but I think this is a conversation worth having. In the end I believe that all of us want the same thing. The argument is about how to get there! All the Best ------------- "The only prudence in fishermen is that designed to set the stage for taking yet another, and perhaps a longer, chance." -Aldo Leopold |
Posted By: davidg
Date Posted: February-28-2011 at 3:43pm
|
Jamin;
I would also like to say I am not being confrontational with you. I just enjoy a good political/tax share debate. Please don't take anything I say personally. Its not pointed at you, but maybe at some of your viewpoints/comments. You are right, the money has to come from somewhere. Did you know: - That the top 1% of taxpayers pay ~33% of all taxes in the US. - That the top 5% of taxpayers pay ~54 of all taxes in the US. - That the top 50% of taxpayers pay ~95% of all taxes in the US. - That the bottom 50% of all taxpayers pay ~4% of taxes in the US. As you can see, we have a VERY progressive tax system already. The wealthiest 50% in the US are pulling the cart. The bottom 50% are riding in the cart. Fair??? So, what you are saying is that top earners should pay even more?? It is my opinion that EVERYBODY that lives in this country should pay an equal share. Assume a 17% flat tax. - A person making $1MM will pay $170K. - A person making $500K will pay $85K. - A person making $100K will pay $17K. - A person making $50K will pay ~$9K. Doesn't it only make sense that everybody (except maybe the extreme indigent/truly needy) should be pulling the wagon? Don't they deserve to have a vested interest in this country instead of just saying....."We demand more, but the "rich" should pay for it"? Pretty soon, you will have 1% of the people in this country pulling the cart, and 99% riding. Is that fair??? And, pretty soon, that 1% will say to heck with it, and move to lower tax environments. Thats why people are leaving Wisconsin, New York, New Jersey, and moving to Florida, Nevada, Tennessee, and other low tax states. And, by the way, Gov. Walker gave tax breaks to attract more business/residents to Wisconsin. You know businesses, they are the ones who create jobs and tax revenue streams. I think the "worm has turned" on public sector unions, and we are seeing them in the death throws of trying to hang on to the sweet deal they have with Democrats, who keep each other power. Wisconsin is just the start, and thats why they are fighting so hard up there to try and stop the movement in its tracks. The facts are that the public has awakened to this situation and is tired of paying big $$$$ to fund big salaries, extravagent pensions, and ridiculous work rules. Take for example the union bus driver in Madison I heard about last week. He earned $159K in 2009 (more than the mayor, and other top govt officials) because according to union work rules, he got the choice of big overtime schedules due to his seniority. A bus driver making $159K/yr. Wow!!! Nice work if you can get it! These are the union rules that are causing big budget problems for towns/cities/states. Now lets get some folks from CCF, head down to the Great Dane in the shadow of the Capitol, I'll buy a round of Spotted Cow's and we'll have some more discussion on the topic. |
Posted By: skicat2001
Date Posted: February-28-2011 at 4:57pm
 There we go.. When you tax the crap like Obama and company have to the rich, and coporations, Guess what??? No jobs. period! Most of corporate America went acrooss seas with there money becuase of the loss they could take on it and democrats scare coporate America.
Why do you not think the "private sector" has grown much. Cause the rich are paying out the ying yang on taxes etc... When you give taxbreaks to the rich and middle class, boy watch that economy go! I am not against poor people but they do not create jobs, pay taxes or anything that goes into making a state,county, or govemrent stronger. There nothing wrong with the current healthcare but some areas can be changed. They need to figure out how to be able to offer better affordable insurnace to seniors and poor folk. My insurance at work I am very happy with. Affordable with a excellent network avaialabe.. ------------- 1985 CC 2001-SOLD Lee Michael Johnson |
Posted By: skicat2001
Date Posted: February-28-2011 at 5:10pm
|
As Hansel said in his post. That is what and why people come to America, to live the American "Dream"! Able to work and become what you want.
Let say for example a he or she creates a business creates jobs for others and started with nothing. Maybe just a bank loan or a education or whatever the case maybe. And they strike it rich! Do we robb them blind and say you are not aloud to be rich in this country,or we gonna take half of it from ya and give it to a homeless person that may be illegal that has not worked a day in his life. That crap is just not right!! Since 08 when Obama has taking over, goverment organizations have increased 30%, unemployment benefits extended, and the most is welfare is high too. Democrats love welfare programs.. If they could put us on welfare thats what they would want. Just like a socialist communist country. Na I will pass! I wanna work for my crap and be free! No handout here!! ------------- 1985 CC 2001-SOLD Lee Michael Johnson |
Posted By: Hansel
Date Posted: February-28-2011 at 5:11pm
|
Hi Dave,
Thanks for continuing this conversation. I totally hear you on all counts, especially the problem of causing businesses and people to leave a place with high taxes for those with lower rates. However, if you believe the article I linked to in response to Pete, taxes in Wisconsin are in fact currently low (it was not always the case) relative to national averages. I would also dispute your contention that taxes are currently "VERY" progressive. In fact, income tax rates for the upper tax brackets are at historic lows; during the 1950s they were as high as 65% and during the 60s and 70s hovered around 50%. That makes our current 35% seem like a bargain. I too am drawn to the simplicity and perceived "fairness" of a flat tax. But I personally don't believe they are fair because a millionaire paying $170K in taxes is not equivalent to a person coughing up $9K of their $50K income. $9K to someone like me is the difference between if I can afford a house, a car, a doctor's visit, etc. while a millionaire losing $170K is the difference between buying a new yacht or continuing to limp along on their old 35-footer. I understand that my illustration is a bit of hyperbole, but like economies of scale, once you go above a certain income level it is not about survival as it is for the bottom earners, it is about luxury. As for the top 1% paying 33% of all taxes, that is true. But what if I told you that the top 1% have 33% of the wealth? Given that the bottom 80% have only 15% of the wealth in this country, I don't think it is surprising that they pay few of the taxes. They simply don't have the money! I know this is coming from a "lefty" source, but I don't think that makes it false or uninteresting... %20 - http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/02/income-inequality-in-america-chart-graph Yeah, the bus driver thing is admittedly kinda crazy. I am not saying unions are perfect by any means. But I don't believe that the wealthy and corporations should have their voices drown out those of us at the bottom. At the end of the day I believe it is in everyone's interest to have a strong middle class. Right now I think we can all agree that the middle class is being severely pinched, and from all indications it is due to government policies that favor the rich over the poor. I hear a lot about fighting against the "transfer of wealth" or "redistributing the wealth." I agree we should be fighting it because wealth is being transferred away from us to the coffers of people like the Koch Brothers. If some CCF'ers are at the Great Dane, I will buy the second round! Maybe we should start another thread on that topic, because I know there are a fair number of us in this neck of the woods. Cheers! ------------- "The only prudence in fishermen is that designed to set the stage for taking yet another, and perhaps a longer, chance." -Aldo Leopold |
Posted By: OverMyHead
Date Posted: March-01-2011 at 2:43am
|
What about the legislators heading out of state. Are they living up to whatever oath they took when they were sworn in? Are they thumbing their noses at the will of the people who elected the govenor and republican representatives? I am sure republicans were in the minority when the budgets for a lot of these bennefits were voted on, and if they diagreed they did not flee when things did not go their way. Does Wisconsin allow for recalling elected officials? Are their any efforts to recall they traveling Dems? ------------- For thousands of years men have felt the irresistible urge to go to sea, and many of them died. Things got better after they invented boats. 1987 Ski Nautique |
Posted By: horkn
Date Posted: March-01-2011 at 2:55am
|
Pete, Jamin pretty well described the way that both parties have voted over the years. David, I get my info from both sides of the spectrum.
Of course you will find exceptions to the "rule" of how sides vote, but as a whole, the 2 sides vote just as I mentioned. David, there are 2 sides to the legislators heading out of town and as to if they are doing what we elected them for. They sincerely want to discuss the bill, but walker won't. Not being in the state does not mean they are not working, and definitely that they are not listening to what the wisconsin people want. Republican legislators are now turning to vote against walker. The majority of people in WI don't think walker's pan is fair. The rate is now apparently north of 80% disapproval for walkers bill. Some folks here are pressing for recall's on both the democrats AND the republicans. ------------- 78 martinique- refloored, reinforced, stringers re glassed, re engineered interior GT40P heads Edelbrock Performer intake acme 4 blade http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v64/horkn/fish/nautique.jpg |
Posted By: OverMyHead
Date Posted: March-01-2011 at 3:00am
|
Tom, I have not heard anything on any recal efforts, I was just curious. I know some will view the lost dems as heros for leaving, I am just interested as to how peoples opinions fall relating to the ethics of what they are doing. ------------- For thousands of years men have felt the irresistible urge to go to sea, and many of them died. Things got better after they invented boats. 1987 Ski Nautique |
Posted By: Hansel
Date Posted: March-01-2011 at 4:07am
|
Hi Tom and Dave,
Tom, you beat me to a response to Dave. My impression of the situation is that the Democrats realized what an inflammatory move it was to leave the state, but still felt that it was necessary given the circumstances. It should be remembered that the Gov. wanted this sweeping bill passed in less than a week. The charge that the 14 are not doing what they were elected to do is not accurate, as the impression I have gotten is that the majority of those that voted them in think they are doing the right thing. Also, as long as there are tens of thousands of protesters in and around the WI Capitol I think they have sufficient political cover to remain out of state. I don't agree with Walker, but even if I did, I hope that I would be unbiased enough to know that this his is a poor example of leadership. I hope that if Democrats made similar moves, I would also be outraged. Tom, from what I gather this is your position, and I give you a ton of credit for it. I see that you are not too far away. How often do you make it to Madison? ------------- "The only prudence in fishermen is that designed to set the stage for taking yet another, and perhaps a longer, chance." -Aldo Leopold |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: March-01-2011 at 10:19am
|
is cheese production up? lol or is it them damn Harley's, I hav'nt been following the situation in Wisconsin to close, but really should.
I really think there is a conspiracy going on with these electronic gambling houses, they are popping up everywhere and the parking lots are full with the 70's crowd....are they giving back their social security? ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: OverMyHead
Date Posted: March-01-2011 at 11:02am
|
What about this scenario, the dems stay out another week forcing a government shutdown but sway public opinion enough to change the vote, when they return, a group of Repubs flee the state, staying away long enough to achieve their savings on the backs of government employees anyway, they do this becasue they believe it is what their electorate believes is right, Are they hero's? obstructionists? or anarchists? when do you think the states business will get done?
Or, say there is no forfiet rule in the NFL, teams have to show up and play for a game to be decided. It is Saturday night and the packers are to play the vikings on Sunday but they are down a quarterback and reciever so they flee to chicago untill everyone is healthy. When they return the vikings have now lost their quarterback to an auto accident, soo they flee for a few years untill they can develop a new one, Is it good for the sport to only play when the odds are in your favor, Is that a service to your fans, or do you play the game, do your best, and move on? ------------- For thousands of years men have felt the irresistible urge to go to sea, and many of them died. Things got better after they invented boats. 1987 Ski Nautique |
Posted By: skicat2001
Date Posted: March-01-2011 at 11:55am
|
The union workers need to shut there traps. Party is over! You been living on a to generous handout too ***************g long.
Why the hell do we pay 30k or 40k for a chevy or gmc p/u? Becuase about 15k of it is union freeking dues. It bull crap if you ask me. Leave the school teachers, police officers alone and cute the union. ------------- 1985 CC 2001-SOLD Lee Michael Johnson |
Posted By: Hansel
Date Posted: March-01-2011 at 12:49pm
|
Hi Dave,
I agree that it is a dangerous precedent to leave the state. There have also been breaches of tradition at the very least, and perhaps even legal protocol, in the WI Assembly and concerning access to the Capitol grounds that have been led by Republicans in the legislature and those in Walker's administration. I don't think that either group looks like angels here, and much of it is a matter of opinion. Political fractures across party lines have now been immeasurably widened, and we have to ask ourselves "For what?" Seem like the answer to that question is Mr. Walker's ego, agenda, or more likely both. The damage will probably takes many years to repair. You don't quickly forget when your colleagues shout "Shame! Shame!" in your face! There is no looming government shutdown in Wisconsin as there is at the Federal level. I think that those of us from both ends of the political spectrum expect better from our elected leaders than what we are getting at the state and national levels. I know that I want to see us move forward in a constructive manner that involves true compromise. The stakes are too high to have either party say "my way or the highway." Unfortunately this has increasingly been a tactic of both parties over the last few years. Hi Lee, I used to have very similar opinions about unions as you do, and I even had a local union president in my family. However for me at least, I would rather support a union worker right here in the United States than line the pockets of some corporate big wig either in this country or abroad. Remember that these union members are your neighbors and customers, so when they lose their wages or jobs, it means they won't be buying whatever it is that you sell. That is part of the problem here is Wisconsin. Some economists have raised the issue of how wise it is to significantly reduce pay of hundreds of thousands of people in the state. All of whom will now have less cash to upgrade their homes, go out to dinner, buy new boats, etc... Thanks to both of you. I am enjoying this conversation very much! You give me a lot to think about. ------------- "The only prudence in fishermen is that designed to set the stage for taking yet another, and perhaps a longer, chance." -Aldo Leopold |
Posted By: davidg
Date Posted: March-01-2011 at 8:43pm
Jamin....You may find this odd, but, I completely agree with you! My next door neighbor is a union bus driver who works for the city. He made $159,000 last year!! He is doing GREAT....thanks to his union contract!!! Unfortunately, I am taxed up the yazoo to be able to pay for it. Oh well, MY new boat, and MY home upgrades, and MY evenings out on the town at nice restaurants will have to wait I guess. I might even have to sell my house and move out of state because I can't afford the property taxes anymore. But, as long as the public union members get theirs...that is the important thing. By the way, just curious Jamin, do you own a Correct Craft (or any boat)? Not sure how you found this site. Glad you did though. You have some nice lakes in Madison. I stayed at the Edgewater last spring. Great hotel overlooking Lake Mendota (I think is the lake). I would love to bring my boat up there this summer! Dave |
Posted By: Hansel
Date Posted: March-01-2011 at 10:07pm
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Hi Dave,
I agree that ideally you wouldn't be paying super high taxes to pay for public employees. I am saying tax the fantastically wealthy and major corporations for their "fair share" that the rest of us have been asked to burden. And, as I have said before, if you don't think you are already indirectly paying for those tax breaks through high taxes/cuts in public services to yourself, then I would say think again. Yeah, the lakes here are fantastic. "My" boat is actually my parents' that I left behind in Michigan a few years back. I am a field biologist who spends my summers doing research and so I have not been able to ski much the last four or five years. But I still get home a couple times a summer and more or less am the caretaker of the boat ('97 Ski Nautique). I've been following the site for 4.5(!) years now and enjoy lurking and reading things. CCFan has helped me out of a few jams over the years. As a scientist who enjoys politics, I find my contributions more appropriate here in the Off Topic than, say, the Maintenance forum. If you are ever here you should let me know. Mendota and Monona are beautiful. A couple of autumns ago I free-skied evenings with the UW-Madison ski team on Lake Monona and it us a unique place to get a pull, with the beautiful city skyline and the Monona Terrace right there. Next time you or horkn are here, I would love to join you for beers at the Union Terrace. Best! ------------- "The only prudence in fishermen is that designed to set the stage for taking yet another, and perhaps a longer, chance." -Aldo Leopold |
Posted By: OverMyHead
Date Posted: March-01-2011 at 11:18pm
Tom It is the exceptions that that prove that they don't vote just as you mentioned, of course if your mind is made up I may just be confusing you with the facts.
As for tax breaks for the rich that is a term used by democrats and the media to vilify supply side economics. It could just as easily be called insentives for producers,rewards for achievers, or resources for job creaters. And it does work, when Raegan droped taxes from 70% to 28% the econmy grew and added 4 million jobs, and government collections increased. It ushered in the greatest sustained period of growht in U.S. history. It does tend to reward those that take the entrapranuerial risks at a higher rate than those that work for them, but they all rise together. look at communist and socialist countries and see how thier poor live compared to how they live here. In this country the poor have cell phones, TV's, and they do not starve, in fact their biggest health problems are related to obesity, they live in appartments, not huts. When socialist ideas are applied there is an initial boost to the poor but over time the lack of reward reduces incentive to produce and grow, and it brings everyone down. Eventually the poor get poorer, add in the coruption that comes with the power of a large central authority and it gets even worse. If we are going to call pilfering 35 percent from the "rich" instead of 39.4% a break, lets call welfare reductions an entitlement break, and taking away collective bargaining a representation break. ------------- For thousands of years men have felt the irresistible urge to go to sea, and many of them died. Things got better after they invented boats. 1987 Ski Nautique |
Posted By: OverMyHead
Date Posted: March-01-2011 at 11:20pm
------------- For thousands of years men have felt the irresistible urge to go to sea, and many of them died. Things got better after they invented boats. 1987 Ski Nautique |
Posted By: davidg
Date Posted: March-01-2011 at 11:48pm
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Okay guys, a break in the political discussion. These Progressives are wearing me out!!:) Here are some pictures from Madison WI during my stay there last spring. I was very impressed with the downtown area, especially the campus terrace area overlooking the lake. It was the first 80+ Deg. day of the year. Hundreds of students drinking University supplied beer on the Student Union terrace. I couldn't believe that, but, then I remembered I was in Wisconsin.
A picture of the capitol building we took on our way to the Great Dane. This is where all the action is going on now. 
This is the first sight I saw the next morning when I looked out my hotel window. The UW Sculling Team out for a practice. That is Picnic Point off in the background. We walked out there and back to get some exercise. 
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Posted By: Hansel
Date Posted: March-02-2011 at 12:45am
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Hey Dave,
Those are some great photos! I live downtown a stone's throw from the Capitol Building and spend a lot of time at the Terrace when temperatures are warm. In fact, I would bet big money that I was there when you were! I also ride my bike along the lake every morning (not in winter) on my commute. It is a great way to start the day. ------------- "The only prudence in fishermen is that designed to set the stage for taking yet another, and perhaps a longer, chance." -Aldo Leopold |
Posted By: OverMyHead
Date Posted: March-02-2011 at 12:54am
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Nice Pics Dave, When I am near water like that without the boat it drives me nuts. Nice town. I was there abot 30 years ago for a drum and bugle corps competition. The Madison scouts always amazed me. ------------- For thousands of years men have felt the irresistible urge to go to sea, and many of them died. Things got better after they invented boats. 1987 Ski Nautique |
Posted By: horkn
Date Posted: March-02-2011 at 2:21am
Yeah, it is a tough line to tow. As of now, there is no plan to return until walker backs down and at least will do some bargaining. The unions have agreed to everything but the collective bargaining elimination. Walker won't budge even though he could cut money spent just by agreeing. Actually now there is a big movement to recall Walker.... And if the election took place today Barrett would have won. People were so scared of losing money on the high speed rail that that issue swayed enough voters to vote walker. You know, I also learned that walker does not possess a 4 year degree. That fact would lead many to believe he would not side with teachers with that background. ------------- 78 martinique- refloored, reinforced, stringers re glassed, re engineered interior GT40P heads Edelbrock Performer intake acme 4 blade http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v64/horkn/fish/nautique.jpg |
Posted By: horkn
Date Posted: March-02-2011 at 2:32am
Yeah, I am not pro walker, but I really want(ed) him to succeed in turning the economy around in this state. I still do, but I just don't see things ending well for him with the attitude that he has to have things his way 100% of the time. It looks like walker is being investigated by the Government Accountability Board for multiple ethics, election law and labor law violations he appears have committed while being prank called by billionaire "Koch bros". Wisconsin is very strict regarding ethics, so I wouldn't be shocked if he gets in deep water for this. I don't get to Madison nearly enough. I personally have made several ethics violations every time I have been there though. LOL ------------- 78 martinique- refloored, reinforced, stringers re glassed, re engineered interior GT40P heads Edelbrock Performer intake acme 4 blade http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v64/horkn/fish/nautique.jpg |
Posted By: horkn
Date Posted: March-02-2011 at 2:38am
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As far as union members raking it in, I'm certain there are several union workers like that bus driver that make ungodly amounts of $$ for a career that should not pay any more than 3 times that at absolute most. I also hear stories about the other end of the union workers. Take this for what it is worth as a coworker tells me a friend of his, that is an accountant for the state of WI (not a CPA) only makes 17 dollars an hour, and he has a 4 year degree. If that is true, i would look outside of the state unless he is getting some really sweet benefits to supplant that meager income that gets paid much more than that in private sectors.
I don't know if I can be labeled any which way or the other politically, but I do know that I want my elected officials to do their jobs and work with each other to come up with solutions for the problems our states and country face. ------------- 78 martinique- refloored, reinforced, stringers re glassed, re engineered interior GT40P heads Edelbrock Performer intake acme 4 blade http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v64/horkn/fish/nautique.jpg |
Posted By: davidg
Date Posted: March-02-2011 at 3:38am
Tom....with all due respect, at first I thought you were a conservative. However, you seem to have gone "progressive" on us. But don't worry, Dave, SkiCat and I are here to try and straighten things out!! Okay, the voters spoke in November, and elected a Republican Governor, and majority in the Senate and Assembly. Thats democracy. The Governor, Assembly, and Senate are trying to do the peoples work. Thats democracy. Just because 14 Democrat Senators don't like the medicine they are going to have to swallow, they run and hide. That is NOT democracy. If they don't like what is going on, they should stay, and fight, and try to convince the other side they are wrong. And, by the way, there are rumors that the unions are paying for thier little vacation in Illinois too. Hmmmmm! Can't you see that the public unions keep the Democrats in power, who in turn vote in all the rich salaries, and pensions for the public unions. TOTALLY A RIGGED GAME!!! It has to stop! Whats wrong with re-certifying the union every year? Whats wrong with having union members VOLUNTARILY pay their union dues instead of having it automatically deducted from thier pay, and funneled directly to the union coffers? Come on man, wake up and smell the corrupt coffee! |
Posted By: horkn
Date Posted: March-02-2011 at 4:22am
------------- 78 martinique- refloored, reinforced, stringers re glassed, re engineered interior GT40P heads Edelbrock Performer intake acme 4 blade http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v64/horkn/fish/nautique.jpg |
Posted By: Hansel
Date Posted: March-02-2011 at 1:13pm
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I agree Tom, corruption is on both sides of the aisle. Here in Wisconsin the television is being flooded with ads for and against Walker. I notice that most of them are coming from outside groups with bigger agendas, e.g. American's for Prosperity (Koch Brother's $, for) and some group tied to Obama (can't remember the name now, against). While this issue surely does have implications beyond Wisconsin, it should be decided by Wisconsinites and I worry for a system that can be easily and (I pray not, but I fear) effectively swayed by massive amounts of money and influence from outside the state. That should worry all of us.
One of the good things that is coming out of this crisis is awareness. I know lots of people, myself included, who have learned a lot more about how their state government works. And many are asking themselves how we got here, and what our real options are to get out of this mess. Unfortunately for Walker, the more people think and talk the more of an incompetent ideologue he appears. ------------- "The only prudence in fishermen is that designed to set the stage for taking yet another, and perhaps a longer, chance." -Aldo Leopold |
Posted By: davidg
Date Posted: March-02-2011 at 6:50pm
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Tom and Jamin;
Questions for you guys! - Do you own your own home? If you do, you'll understand about property taxes. Mine are already high, and going higher. I am seriously considering moving to an area with reasonable taxes. Guess whats driving it? The out of control school costs. - Do you have kids? I have three, with two boys in college. Extremely expensive!! Its a real burden, but, its something I want to do for them to try and give them a better life. - Do you enjoy paying state income taxes? I sure hope you do as Wisconsin is in the top five states in terms of having the highest taxes. Illinois just raised thier state tax rate 67% in the dark of the night recently. Point being, its extremely hard to balance a family budget, send the kids to college, and pay outrageous property taxes. I sure wish I had more disposable income to buy a new boat, a new car, go out to dinners more often, and fix the house up. High taxes make it very difficult for families these days. Lets not even talk about Federal income taxes. |
Posted By: Hansel
Date Posted: March-02-2011 at 8:37pm
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Hi Dave,
Good questions all. Just to let you know where I am coming from I am in my late 20s and am working on a post-graduate degree. Needless to say I don't make a lot of money in the first place. Nor do I come from money. I don't own my own home, I rent. So things like property taxes influence me indirectly and it is hard for me to gauge the true magnitude of their cost. Doesn't mean that I don't pay them though. I don't have kids. But having gone through college not that long ago I know how expensive it is. It is a huge burden, and becomes increasingly so over time. Honestly, right now, I give it less than 50-50 odds that I have kids at all. I think there are a lot of people my age that feel that way because of future uncertainly. Could change with the right woman I guess though from what I hear... I don't take a lot of pleasure paying state or federal income taxes. On the other hand I like living in a city, state, and nation with decent infrastructure, buses that work, good schools, public services that work, etc. I should say that I have spent a decent amount of time overseas and have lots of friends from Europe, so my view on tax rates in America is not typical. For example, I have gone months paying $10 for a beer, $9 for a gallon of gas, and a 25% value added tax on everything I buy. That said, it does make you have to really want something to buy it! I totally agree with you that it is hard for you to do all of those things. I too wish that you had more disposable income. That is why I am not an advocate for raising taxes on the middle-class. However, I am for raising taxes on the upper-class; e.g. those that could send their kids to college, buy a huge house, afford a new boat every other year, and still have plenty of left over. I guess it is odd (to say the least) to see many of my friends here struggle to take a 5-10% pay cut while those making millions remain untouched. Doesn't make sense to me. Where is the "shared sacrifice" in that? As an aside, I would agree with the Tea Party line "Taxed Enough Already." The problem is that the Tea Party has bought the line that all taxes are evil, and that when people talk about increasing revenue it must be on their backs. That is demonstrably false, but by resisting increasing taxes on those who could actually afford it, we the "little people" end up paying taxes indirectly via cuts to education, health care, basic services provided by public employees, increased traffic ticket prices and state service fees, decaying public roads and bridges, lack of mass transit, etc. Nothing is free. A tax cut to the rich becomes either a tax increase or a service decrease to you. There is no way around it. If you can live with that, fine, but at least come to grips with the fact that your quality of life is suffering to support someone else's living high on the hog. Maybe when I get older I will think differently. Who knows? When I was younger I was definitely much more conservative than I am now. ------------- "The only prudence in fishermen is that designed to set the stage for taking yet another, and perhaps a longer, chance." -Aldo Leopold |
Posted By: skicat2001
Date Posted: March-02-2011 at 11:42pm
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Hansel,
You made many great points about taxes but I think the rich should not pay 75% of the taxes in the country. At least not the amount they are now since 2008. We have literally strnagled the rich, small business and large corporations. Which puts the other classes in a bind such as middle and poor. Like you said, the rich pay all the taxes and we end up paying for it. So my advice and thinking is quite taxing the crap out of the rich. Let em breath. Most of all, the rich makes this country. When you take away from them, everybody else SUFFERS! The core values of the demmi' I dont ride with. All have some good ideas and then they will throw in 2 or more things in there polocies they want to do, and what they beleive in and they get thrown in the trash. I am a very proud republican, very proud, because they know economics, polotics, war, christianty in and out. And they believe there is a right and wrong in every situtation. For example, a govenor here in tx, or arizona that is republican is asking the president (Obama) for more border patrol when it is neeeded. Why? A liberal democrat is in office and the borders are weak, they believe in free flow and let everybody in. The Constitution was not written from our founding fathers to allow penatraters to invade the U.S. My ancestors came here correctly, and so should everybody else. It is written and people need to abide by it. So, I became a voter the 2nd term of Bush jr, and since then it takes me 2 seconds to vote everytime and I Hhave not been disappointed until 08. I turn the dial, do you want to vote all "rebuplican", I hit yes and see ya.
At last I want to say that I am so glad that Wisconsin voted in a repbulican govenor. I also value what the House is doing up there in Washington. Where teaching a lesson that democrats are "weak", and incompatent in doing there job. Leaving the state and enabling the goverment of the state to maybe shut down shows no class of them at all. I think the tax issues, and this liberal stuff will be over for a long time. We just had to get a taste of it and see it does not work at all.  ------------- 1985 CC 2001-SOLD Lee Michael Johnson |
Posted By: OverMyHead
Date Posted: March-03-2011 at 1:00am
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Jamin, Being 20 something and fresh out of college you have likely spent the 16 of the last 20+ years in very liberal biased environments. Most of our nations education institutions are. Being immursed in such an environment will generally instill those values into you. A mild form of brainwashing no matter how intentional/ unintentional. I like you had very liberal thinking (or not thinking)at the age of 22. It was real life experience and thinking for myself that brought me to my more conservative ideals. Dont feel bad, Winston Churchill said "if you are not a liberal when you are young, you have no heart. If you are not conservative when you are old, you have no brain." You have likely been educated and hanging around those who are on the recieving end of government money, teachers, profeesors, and students looking for loans and grants. This group also has very little exposure to private enterprise, and its realities. Dan akroid plaid a college researcher in ghost busters, his character spoke of the private sector saying "You don't know what it is like in the private sector, they expect results."
Some things that you should get over that have been instilled in you is your envy, or at least your idea that if someone has more than you it should be taken away. That is stealing, they have more, so what, who is to say what is to much? They pay taxes, create jobs and spend their money on stuff (goods and services) you and I get paid to provide. they are not bad, they just have more money. Taking it from them just because they are outnumbered in the voting pool is a punishment, nothing less than mob mentality saying we as a group are strong, lets roll that guy over there and take what he has. There is something very wrong with taking from those that produce and giving it to those that do not. Imagine working at a job where the least productive employees recieved the biggest raises, what would you do over time, probably reduce your production to get in on the cash. It should be hard to be jobless and non-productive, and it should be rewarding to be industrious. If you must have envy use it as motivation to work harder and take some risks to see where you can get. I am working on a multi-million dollar home right now, the guy started a buisness importing nuts and dried fruit. I am thankfull he is spending the money he earned and keeping me employeed I also find myself saying whay didnt I do that, not whay does this guy get to keep the money that he EARNED. If you have a chance you should try to start a small business, It would change your thinking. ------------- For thousands of years men have felt the irresistible urge to go to sea, and many of them died. Things got better after they invented boats. 1987 Ski Nautique |
Posted By: davidg
Date Posted: March-03-2011 at 1:00am
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Well said Skicat! You nailed it.
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Posted By: Hansel
Date Posted: March-03-2011 at 1:51am
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Hi Dave,
Yes I am young, but just to dispel some of what you might assume about me and my background; I grew up in a very conservative area, and went to a small, Christian liberal arts college. I would not call either of them remotely close to a place where liberal brainwashing takes place. In fact I would argue just the opposite. I do spend a lot of time with teachers and professors and the like. But I also spend a lot of time with people that are not, including people like my mom who owned and operated her own small business and my dad who works in a factory. I strongly dispute your belief that I am an envious person. I am very happy with my life and I don't envy anyone who makes more than me (which is almost everybody). I am also very thankful for the little luxuries that I get to enjoy, as well as my basic necessities that are met everyday. As to the lesser charge of thinking that we should take from those who have more, that is a corruption of my argument. I don't think we should take from those who have more simply because they have more. I think we should because our country needs the money and it seems to me to be the most ethical way to solve our problems. All I am saying, and I am just going to say it once more because I doubt either of us is going to change our mind (isn't this how all the "Off Topic" conversations end?! :), is that I want some more balance in how our government is funded and how its people's goals and aspirations are supported. Do I want to "steal" from the rich and give to the poor? Not really. Do I think it would be a good idea to tax those with much a little more so that those with little suffer less and have access to basic services? Most definitely. I mean honestly, do you really think that there is any good reason for Warren Buffett and others like him to pay lower taxes than you do? C'mon! It might be hard to believe, but I want the same things that you do. A country where hard work is rewarded, people are free to chase their dreams, and the government functions to help and not hinder its citizens. I just happen to believe that part of that requires, *gasp*, a redistribution of wealth. Yes I said it. I believe that for us to create a viable, functional, and stable society we must as a collective ask those at the top to contribute a greater proportion of their earnings to the pot so that those at the bottom may be spared. Call me a radical but that is what I believe. I also happen to believe that my vision of helping the down-and-out and your vision of encouraging and rewarding free enterprise can happen at the same time. I hope that someday we get there. Starting a small business may change my mind. Perhaps time, or experience, or something else will too. Who knows, I am open to being wrong. I just want to end saying that things are really freaking complicated in this world, and I would hesitate before jumping on any platform too strongly. I think there is a healthy middle ground when it comes to taxes, and right now I don't think we are anywhere close. Thanks again for the good conversation. Dave, or Dave, or Tom, or Lee, if any or all of you are ever in Madison, first beer is on me. Peace ------------- "The only prudence in fishermen is that designed to set the stage for taking yet another, and perhaps a longer, chance." -Aldo Leopold |
Posted By: davidg
Date Posted: March-03-2011 at 3:18am
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Beer Summit
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Posted By: horkn
Date Posted: March-03-2011 at 3:40am
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Did I hear free beer? There's a good chance the filling/ brewing equipment is made by the company I work for, supporting my company, and in effect, me.
As to David's questions. I do own my own home. Taxes are higher than some states, but not as bad as a lot of others. I have no kids, and unfortunately probably won't, but you never know. Kids are expensive, I am fully aware of that. I pay taxes in one of the best school districts in the state. I might as well have a kid or 2;) I'm a bit older than hansel, at 36 next tuesday the 8th. ------------- 78 martinique- refloored, reinforced, stringers re glassed, re engineered interior GT40P heads Edelbrock Performer intake acme 4 blade http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v64/horkn/fish/nautique.jpg |
Posted By: Hansel
Date Posted: March-03-2011 at 4:05am
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Hey Guys,
Well I might be done talking about taxes, but I'm happy to keep talking about beer. I am dead serious about buying if you are ever here so keep me posted. Fair warning that I am out of Madison from May to August, so it'll have to be either before or after the hot months. Of course same goes for any CCFan who wanders into my vicinity. Best to you both!  ------------- "The only prudence in fishermen is that designed to set the stage for taking yet another, and perhaps a longer, chance." -Aldo Leopold |
Posted By: phospher
Date Posted: March-03-2011 at 3:55pm
| I've got to say, it's quite fun watching all you guys get schooled by a much younger more educated person than yourselves. |
Posted By: skicat2001
Date Posted: March-03-2011 at 4:48pm
Thank you David.. It started from your post above.
Is it five o clock yet. Did somebody say "beer".. o hell! count me in ------------- 1985 CC 2001-SOLD Lee Michael Johnson |
Posted By: skicat2001
Date Posted: March-03-2011 at 4:53pm
U bet my friend.. ------------- 1985 CC 2001-SOLD Lee Michael Johnson |
Posted By: davidg
Date Posted: March-03-2011 at 5:47pm
I am actually quite a bit older than those guys, but, thank you for the compliment!!! Well make conservatives out of them yet once they see the folly of their ways. |
Posted By: OverMyHead
Date Posted: March-04-2011 at 12:28am
------------- For thousands of years men have felt the irresistible urge to go to sea, and many of them died. Things got better after they invented boats. 1987 Ski Nautique |
Posted By: OverMyHead
Date Posted: March-04-2011 at 2:32am
I went with the odds on your background. Swing and a miss for me. At least i had a lot of qualifiers in my guess just in case. It is always a shame to see a kid with all the "right " backgrounds swerve so drastically "left" Actually we all come to our own conclusions. I just cant see saddeling a small percent of the population with the problems created by our legislators. our elected representatives have made promises and baought votes for the last 50 years in most cases knowing they would not be an issue till long after they have retired. If a docter makes a blunder he gets sued for malpractice, why cant we go back after those that created this situation. in the private sector if you use the funds from one client to pay your costs for another it is called a ponzi scheme, and if caught you go to jail. In the government sector thay call that social security and medicare. The double standard are so clear to anyone that wants to look, but most do not. For instance why can unions like the teachers spend millions per state on lobbying and campaing contributions but a buisness cannot?
As far as Warren buffets tax bill, I probably paid 35-40 grand total tax burden this year (income,property,and sales), and that is up due to a property sale. Are you really trying to tell me Warren paid less? You will have to show me some proof. If you are talking rates, warren primarily makes his money on dividends and interest, which the government chooses to tax at a lower rate to incourage investment and savings. You cannot blame Warren for following the governments policys.The government has the bean counters to figure out where they get the maximim bennifit. As far as "fair share", no where else but government do you determine a price based on ability to pay. Considering the bottom 40 percent of the US pay no income tax of recieve checks, but still get military protection, fire and police protection, government services (which they use far heavier as a percent of population. What about their "fair" share. Have you ever gone out with a group that splits the check, its great till that one guy orders a lobster or three drinks off the top shelf, and then wants to pay only his split of the bill. Everybody hates that guy, but we are supposed to feel great about redistribution when the government forces us to do it. Redistribution is proven to bread mediocrity at best, this country is better than that. ------------- For thousands of years men have felt the irresistible urge to go to sea, and many of them died. Things got better after they invented boats. 1987 Ski Nautique |
Posted By: OverMyHead
Date Posted: March-04-2011 at 2:38am
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Oh yea, come to Green Lake, we can trade a few beers. the politics usually go away when boats are around. ------------- For thousands of years men have felt the irresistible urge to go to sea, and many of them died. Things got better after they invented boats. 1987 Ski Nautique |
Posted By: OverMyHead
Date Posted: March-04-2011 at 2:48am
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Tom, have you paid any attention to the poll questions. Often they will ask "are you for worker rights?". Well who wouldnt be, but ask "do you think government employees should pay similar rates for bennifits as private sector employees?" you would see different results. Or better yet, "would you rather have your childs class size smaller or have his teacher retire at 50 with their last years pay and health bennefit as a retirement bennefit for life?"
On the other side, what has the govenors proposed for his own bennifit package? I hope he started at the top. If not he is a hypocrite. ------------- For thousands of years men have felt the irresistible urge to go to sea, and many of them died. Things got better after they invented boats. 1987 Ski Nautique |
Posted By: OverMyHead
Date Posted: March-04-2011 at 2:57am
Phil, I would not say anyone has been schooled unless its a lefty liberal form of competition where nobody keeps score and everybody gets a participant trophy. (this forum is the one place where that should actually apply.)At least we are in the game. ------------- For thousands of years men have felt the irresistible urge to go to sea, and many of them died. Things got better after they invented boats. 1987 Ski Nautique |
Posted By: horkn
Date Posted: March-04-2011 at 3:50am
I think you mis read that... ------------- 78 martinique- refloored, reinforced, stringers re glassed, re engineered interior GT40P heads Edelbrock Performer intake acme 4 blade http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v64/horkn/fish/nautique.jpg |
Posted By: horkn
Date Posted: March-04-2011 at 3:54am
Amen to that. I'll talk about anything versus politics in person. Very rarely does anything good end up coming from political discussions on forums. It's very refreshing to see that this thread has been civil. One thing that keeps popping up in my head about this thread is the union bus driver that makes 150k a year. I can't even see how that is possible. ------------- 78 martinique- refloored, reinforced, stringers re glassed, re engineered interior GT40P heads Edelbrock Performer intake acme 4 blade http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v64/horkn/fish/nautique.jpg |