engine starts without turning key |
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toolman5
Newbie Joined: June-20-2008 Status: Offline Points: 15 |
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Posted: June-20-2008 at 10:15pm |
We have a 1980 Ski Nautique with a 351 cleveland. It was winterized and today we brought it home to get ready for the lake tomorrow. Engine started once. It would not start again, we took the battery down to Sears where we bought it, they said it was DEAD. Bought a new battery, the boat would not start, all it did was click, click, click. Took the starter in to be tested, it was DEAD. Hook up the new battery, and the boat turns over and continues to try and turn over without me turning the key on. If I just touch the cables to the terminal the boat starts to turnover and keeps turning over until I disconnect the cable. I have looked at the ignigition switch and it appears to be fine. Also, in all the times it keeps turning over, the engine never started up. Any ideas? I am out of my own.
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91nautique
Senior Member Joined: May-26-2005 Status: Offline Points: 104 |
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TM Your engine is probably a Windsor but either way your starter solenoid/relay sounds like it's been fried- follow the battery cable from the starter to the solenoid. It won't be to far from the starter, and it will look something like this.. http://www.skidim.com/prodinfo.asp?number=R130001 |
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toolman5
Newbie Joined: June-20-2008 Status: Offline Points: 15 |
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Thanks for the reply. While I was writing the forum, he was taking that off, he said there isin't anything else so he's off to buy a new one. We'll see. And..no it's not a Windsor, it is a Cleveland. Thanks again.
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21113 |
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Wanna bet? |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Before you go buying parts and replacing something that may not be needed, I recommend you get a volt/ohm meter and do some checking. The small terminals on the starter solenoid are the 12 volts supply to it's coil. When it gets 12 volts, the solenoid closes the big contacts and sends power via the big wires to the starter. Power for the coil comes from the ignition switch . Check the small terminals on the solenoid for 12 volts. If you have power there, then you have a bad ignition switch.
A Cleveland ? Why do you say that??? |
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toolman5
Newbie Joined: June-20-2008 Status: Offline Points: 15 |
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Well, everything has been replaced and it still won't start. The ignition switch works because when you turn it on all the tac stuff works. Still, without the ignition on if you touch the cables to the battery terminals it wants to turn over but will not start. I am totally out of ideas
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boat dr
Grand Poobah Joined: June-27-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4245 |
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Sounds to me like the solenoid is wired wrong. Hows this for a picture,
Removed the starter with cable attached, removed stud at the solenoid..... Replaced starter, installed cable to starter, installed starter cable to the battery side of the solenoid. Re Read his post , sure sounds plausible.............Boat dr toolman do you have 2 big fat wires on one terminal, if so change . Starter cable on one side and battery on the other. And NO THAT IS NOT A CLEVELAND.............. |
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toolman5
Newbie Joined: June-20-2008 Status: Offline Points: 15 |
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I stand corrected. I was told the engine was a Cleveland but obviously you guys no more about it than I.
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boat dr
Grand Poobah Joined: June-27-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4245 |
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Toolman now that is cleared up, what about the cables????????? boat dr
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toolman5
Newbie Joined: June-20-2008 Status: Offline Points: 15 |
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Cables are connected properly. While I was working on it today I did smell a faint 'hot wire' smell, maybe there is a bad wire. Also, how does the ignition switch talk to the engine? Could there be a wire loose or disconnected? I don't know where to look for that
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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In your earlier post, you mentioned "he" was removing the solenoid inferring someone else is working on the boat. Hopefully, this isn't the same guy that told you it was a Cleveland!!! Do you have a volt/ohm meter? Do you have a wiring diagram? How well can the person working on the boat read the diagram and can he use a meter? Even a small 12 volt test light will help. |
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eric lavine
Grand Poobah Joined: August-13-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 13413 |
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remember the 351 modified 400?
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SNobsessed
Grand Poobah Joined: October-21-2007 Location: IA Status: Offline Points: 7102 |
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FWIW - I once had a chevy that displayed this same exact symptom. Not sure if Ford starters are constructed in a like manner, but I thought I would share my root cause anyway. It turned out to be that a snap ring was left off the engaging collar & it would bind with the solenoid in the contacting position. So maybe it could be the starter itself?
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“Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.”
Ben Franklin |
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toolman5
Newbie Joined: June-20-2008 Status: Offline Points: 15 |
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SNobsessed - The starter has been replaced.
8122pbrainard - The person working on the boat is my husband, he is not the one who told us it was a Cleveland. He does have an ohm meter but as handy as he is, electrical is not his best. I don't think he knows exactly how to use it in this problem. We have a manual for the boat, I would guess that there is a diagram to look at, I am checking now. |
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toolman5
Newbie Joined: June-20-2008 Status: Offline Points: 15 |
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Ok, here is what he said to tell you guys...If he takes a screw driver and touches the two main terminals on the solenoid, the engine cranks over very strong. Also..
He connected the nuetral switch wires together to bypass the nuetral switch incase that was the problem and still the engine didn't start. Also, there is a ceramic stone part right above the solenoid that has two terminals coming off of it and when the key is off that part gets hot. Does any of this tell anybody anything? I am looking in the manual and don't see any wiring diagrams. |
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boat dr
Grand Poobah Joined: June-27-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4245 |
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Toolman. it is called a "Ballast Resistor" it's pupose is to decrease voltage to the points. This will insure a long life for these delicate "switches"........Boat dr
And yes it should get very warm, thats the reason it is a ceramic material........ |
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luckoven
Newbie Joined: June-21-2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 13 |
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I am dealing with a solenoid problem myself. I have the feeling the replacement solenoid was bad. It is possible, the one I received for Skidim this week was bad, but mine was stuck in the engaged position, so it crank without the turning the key (like in your first post).
If the motor cranks using the screwdriver method it is probably still your solenoid. Let me know if you need any of the solenoid wiring info. |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Here's a basic wiring diagram.
You'll see that when the ignition switch is turned to the start position, you should have 12 volts coming from it, going through the neutral safety switch and to the starter solenoid. Everything that has happened so far to me points to the ignition switch. |
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toolman5
Newbie Joined: June-20-2008 Status: Offline Points: 15 |
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8122pbrainard - I replaced the ignition switch. Also, can the solenoid be ANY solenoid or does it have to be a marine solenoid? If so, what is the difference? The one I used is a basic four post.
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toolman5
Newbie Joined: June-20-2008 Status: Offline Points: 15 |
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So, took the starter out and took it to be tested to make sure it isint bad, it was fine. I had blown the solenoid again so I bought a new one and installed it. Turned the key and it started to turn over, turned it off and on a couple times and it was fine. I turned on the water to start the engine and it cranked over several times but would engine would not start. I turned the key off and it continued to crank over until I un hooked the battery. Something is blowing the solenoid, this is the 2nd new one.
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Keep the battery disconnected and check the continuity of the main contacts on the solenoid (across the big terminals) Use the ohm meter set to ohms and if you get a reading then contacts are welded together. This would be from the load (starter) and not wiring it wrong nor using a automotive solenoid. Who checked the starter???? Was it someone at a place like Auto Zone? The starer solenoid is nothing more than a heavy duty relay. Marine and auto work the same way.
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toolman5
Newbie Joined: June-20-2008 Status: Offline Points: 15 |
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8122pbrainard - Yes, it was from Checker Auto which is like Auto Zone if you don't have them. I will try what you said to do and let you know. Also, I just want to be sure on this but...on the starter itself is a solenoid which is housed and sits right at the top of it then, there is the solenoid that is a part by itself which the starter connects to, when we are talking solenoid we are talking about the part by itself and not the one that is part of the starter, correct?
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Yes, it is the stand alone "solenoid" that we are talking about. For some reason, over the years, the term solenoid has been used. It is actually a starter relay. You will see it referred to a relay as well. The solenoid/relay is what the ignition switch turns on.
The solenoid on the starter is what engages the starters gear into the flywheel gear. (ring gear) |
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SNobsessed
Grand Poobah Joined: October-21-2007 Location: IA Status: Offline Points: 7102 |
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"Also, there is a ceramic stone part right above the solenoid that has two terminals coming off of it and when the key is off that part gets hot."
Did you say the ballast resister is getting hot when the key if off? Something is wired wrong or the ignition switch is shorted out. There should be no voltage getting to the ballast resistor when the key is off! |
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“Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.”
Ben Franklin |
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88 Nautique
Senior Member Joined: September-20-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 221 |
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I had the same problem. Solenoid stuck in the closed position causing the starter to run on. Insufficiant voltage from the ignition switch wouldn't engage the solonoid fast enough and caused the contacts to "weld" in the closed position.
Do this: 1.Disconnect the battery cable from the solenoid to the starter and reconnect your battery. 2.Take a volt reading at the starter terminal at the solenoid. Should be 0 volts. If your getting 12 volts, your solenoid is stuck closed. Tap on the solenoid to see if you can clear the 12 volts. If you can't, replace the solenoid, but don't try to start your engine yet as you may burn up your new sonenoid. 3.Have someone hold the key in the "start" position. Take a voltage reading at the ignition switch start terminal at the solenoid itself. This is the small terminal with the wire that comes from your ignition switch, through the transmission safety switch then to your solenoid. Should be close to 12 volts. If it's 8 or 9 volts or less, you have a bad or corroded connection in the path between the battery and solenoid. Possibly at the circuit breakers behind the dash, ignition(start) switch or wiring harness. Note: Don't hold the switch in the "start" position very long. This is a momentary relay and will overheat and burn up if left engaged too long. I found my bad connection where hot wire from the engine wiring harness connects to the dash circuit breaker. Looks like it had overheated at one time from some type of overload from the P.O. Replaced the terminal, cleaned the breaker connection and was good to go. |
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toolman5
Newbie Joined: June-20-2008 Status: Offline Points: 15 |
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I did what you told me to do and it the solenoid was stuck closed so I tapped on it like you said and that did work. I took a voltage reading on the terminal going to the starter after reconnecting the battery cable and it was 0. Then I had someone hold the key in the start position and I could hear the solenoid click and it was reading 12 volts plus. So, any other ideas?
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Have the starter checked again. NOT at Checker!! Seen if you can find a shop that rebuilds alternators ans starters. They are usually listed under "auto - electric". If you can't find one, try another parts house like Napa.
Edit: If the solenoid was stuck, you will want to get a new one but you could also take it with you to have it checked too. |
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HOLESHOT
Groupie Joined: July-08-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 47 |
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if u got the starter from checker mybe its not a reverse rotation starter cause that engine should be reverse
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IF IT HAS A SPARKPLUG I CAN FIX IT
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critter
Platinum Member Joined: January-11-2008 Location: New Hill, NC Status: Offline Points: 1227 |
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Toolman5,
You mentioned earlier that: "Turned the key and it started to turn over, turned it off and on a couple times and it was fine. I turned on the water to start the engine and it cranked over several times but would engine would not start. I turned the key off and it continued to crank over until I un hooked the battery." When you checked for the 12v at the solenoid with the ignition switch in the Start position, you did try this multiple times ?? From the earlier post, it could be an intermittent issue with possible low voltage. Need to get this sticking solenoid issue corrected 1st. But then the not starting may just be no fuel. When my 351 sits for a while, I will pour a small amount of fuel directly in the carb and then crank it over, usually fires and then I know is it just in need of fuel. (By small amount of fuel, I am talking a couple tablespoons) |
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1980 Ski Nautique
1966 Barracuda |
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88 Nautique
Senior Member Joined: September-20-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 221 |
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I may not have been very clear. The reading you should be taking is at the terminal on the solenoid that comes from the ignition/starter switch, not the terminal that goes to the starter. It has a smaller wire hooked to it. Trace the wire comming from your transmission safety switch and follow it back to your solenoid. That's the one. Take the voltage reading there while someone holds the switch on the "start"position. If I missunderstood you and that's what you did and you were getting 12V +, it sounds OK. Let me know. |
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