Wisconsin politics

Ive upgraded the situation from "they got problems" to thier "fcd"

Have not heard that news (currently listening to AM620) but that would definitely be bad. I would suspect, that would be viewed as an illegal job action, and we would see a response similar to what Reagan did when the Aircraft Controller Union went on strike. I sure hope cooler heads prevail within WPPA, because there will be a short period of time where there is no law enforcement (until the National Guard can respond) and then a period of time until new law enforcement officers can be hired. When the chaos starts right after they start the job action, it will get ugly. That is the type of thing that is going to really harden the resolve of those people who may not necessarily agree with Budget Repair Bill but will quickly reject anything that puts the public in jeopardy.

Definitely way to many head games going on. Especially around the negotiating thing. Walked did just as you said, in all his public appearances it was "no negotiating" when in fact when you see the emails published a week or so ago he was willing to negotiate. Likewise when the Dems left the state, it may have seemed like a good idea at the heat of the moment, but I don't think they really thought through the "return" strategy. Once they left, they really did not have any way to come back and still "save face." That is a problem and unfortunately a fact of life when you are the minority party. I think, had they stayed and actually presented some workable alternative, I believe there could have been some compromise - but unfortunately we will never know...

This whole ordeal is full of disrespect for the offices (senators, assemblyman, governor), for the process, for the property (the capital and grounds) and for people in general by most of the people involved. Now their are a lot of reports of the protestors actually using intimidation tactics. I fear that this is going to grow into real acts of violence. I hope it doesn't but...

Hansel wrote: Walker, as a matter of personality and principle (however misguided) is not a man of compromise. It is simply not in his character and any indications of negotiation were and are little more than ploys to get what he wants. See the prank phone call if you don't believe this.

I can't believe I am going to type this, because I never thought in all my days I would says something like this, but here goes.

I went to college with Scott Walker, probably about the time of your earliest memories

There I said it. Guess it doesn't make me sound as old as I thought it would... or maybe it does.

Anyway what you see as ploys to get what he wants, I see as qualities he exhibited when he ran for Student president, unwavering commitment to his principles. Even way back then, (I wasn't his buddy, he wouldn't have known my name then or now) he WOULD commit to compromise in order to move a larger agenda forward, as I believe he was attempting to do here, even if it was under the cover of different public persona. I believe that is exactly what he was attempting to do with all of the "secret" meetings in Kenosha.

Much the same, as I am sure you would defend the democrat senators who left the state shrugging their responsibilities to debate and work within the process to change the bill; those actions most certainly were a ploy. And why when reaching some compromise in secret meetings, they would they later back away from the things they agreed to for reasons un-known. I guess your definition of principle must make some pretty big allowances for this type of behavior.

As far as the physical capital building goes, I agree, it was very cool to see it filled with people. It sends chills up my back every time I see it filled with people, for whatever reason. When people break open doors and windows to illegally gain access and then don't have the respect for the people tasked with enforcing the laws... I guess again we have different definitions.

Steve,

BTW, the "Were you here for the protest?" should be read positively. I was not questioning your perspective, only wondering if you had been here and I had missed it.

Best

skutsch wrote: Hansel, ........ Responsibilities with the job did not allow for the time. That seems to be more and more the case as I am continually asked to do more and more with fewer people.

.........maybe you should picket?   

look at it this way, and answer truthfully, and base your opinion on a time of 5 years from now.

if walker succeeds what will happen?

if the unions succeed what will happen?

Careful Eric, your inner republican is showing!

I need someone to paint the inside of my house, guys begging me for the opportunity, all laid off permanently and went into the trades....Its my opportunity to use collective bargaining but on the negative side to chisel the price down....just another way to de-value the dollar.

needless to say, I'll be painting it myself

skutsch wrote: Hansel - I will take you up on that beer sometime. I think it is good to have civil discussion on these issues. As wide apart and split as this country has become, it is really the only way I think the divide will be closed - one on one discussions that lead to middle ground. In the end I think most want pretty much the same thing, the opportunity to live comfortably, be treated fairly and I would hope to help each other make it through life. Was in Madison a little over a week or so ago, drove near the capital, saw all the people in the square, but did not have time to stop. Responsibilities with the job did not allow for the time. That seems to be more and more the case as I am continually asked to do more and more with fewer people.

Totally agree on the common ground thing. I do believe we all want the same thing, and I really think if we could just cool our jets we would be able to get there. Hope we can share a cold one sometime!

So I have been pondering this question for a long time. First, I work with a lot of government employees and have personal friend and relatives who are government employees, some are in the union, some are not. Remember there are 52,000 state employees in WI half of which are represented by unions. Just want to make sure everyone is on the same page.

First, about half of the union employees I know are actually for Walker's proposals. They see that the unions actually do little to nothing for them and really believe the unions are filled with corruption and are more concerned about self promotion.

Interestingly enough, my father-in-law, now retired from over 30 years as a state employee, worked his way up through the system and into management. He had some interesting observations after negotiating with unions for a good part of his career. It was his opinion, that generally all benefits and issues were negotiated for the workers who had the same seniority of whoever was representing the union during the negotiations. i.e. if you had a union rep that had 10 years of experience all the issues were negotiated for that group of employees, 2 years later when you had a 20 year guy representing the union, everything that the 10 year guy had done 2 years earlier was undone and now focus was put on the 20 years workers. He actually felt bad for most of the people represented by the unions, his sense was they had no idea what was being negotiated and their representation only cared about him. I remind you these are observations only from his dealings during negotiations, he also had lots of day to day examples of silly things that happened. I often tell him he should write a book...

So I think the main purpose of the unions is to do exactly what you think Walker is attempting to do with the tax cuts. I believe the heads of these unions are redistributing the wealth of the employees, except in this case directly to the union leaders. How does that happen, they fill the pockets of politicians who then become sympathetic to the leaders of the unions and pass legislation to support the unions. Classic example, why in the world would you take away the freedom of a worker to choose whether or not you want to join a union. In WI, if you’re a state employee and your work group is represented by a union, you are mandated to pay those dues. Why is that? My guess it’s so that the union leaders can redistribute those money's to the union leadership (have you checked out their salaries) and to the politicians that support them (which I believe is exactly the situation that Fitzgerald is describing). That seems to be a lot more selfish then anything Walker is doing.

Funny thing is Walker's tax cuts allow corporations to establish health care accounts and the monies that go into those accounts are tax free. Now last time I checked those monies can only be spent on medical expenses. Not sure how that helps only the rich, from my perspective, that helps anyone who elects to participate in the health care accounts. Oh, wait I am beginning to see the logic of the argument, yes your right it doesn’t help the lowest wage earners because THEY DON’T PAY TAXES ALREADY!

So back to the budget bill (because it is often too easy to fall into the tactic, of "I don't like the way the conversation is going, so I will change the subject") I believe the numbers quoted as the deficit come from independent non partisan organization within the state, I guess if you don't believe that who are you going to believe. So if you run on a platform of supporting the taxpayer (i.e I won't raise taxes) and actually get elected, and are lucky enough to have enough other people get elected that also run on a similar platform AND you are required by law to balance the budget what do you do? If you said you wouldn't raise taxes your left with cutting spending. One of the biggest costs of any organization (whether it’s a business, a government body or something else) is payroll and benefits. In this case in the state of WI, it is a proven fact that public employees total compensation is above those who have similar jobs in the private sector. That becomes an obvious area to make large gains (cuts) in spending. So following along with this train of thought, and I know it’s getting very long winded, and knowing that you can't close up shop (like a private sector employer does) and knowing that your unions are unwilling to participate in discussions on cutting pay or benefits, what are you left to do? I believe a fair approach is to reduce privileges that have become abused in recent years, those privileges being collective bargaining. Notice I did not call them rights, if they were rights everyone would have collective bargaining, the fact of the matter is no one in federal employment does, and most don't in the private sector. Many of the things that should be protected (these things I WOULD actually call rights), such as maximum work hours, overtime rules, the ability to challenge disciplinary actions and others are indeed protected, but not by collective bargaining but rather by civil service legislation.

So I feel for the state employees, I didn't like it when I had to start paying more for my health care every for the last 10 or 12 years. I also didn't like it when my employer took away my pension and I really didn't like it when my pay was frozen three years ago. It sucks, I get that, but when you (state employees) have so much more then the people (tax payers in the privates sector) that are paying for your (state employees) benefits and wages, isn't there something wrong there?

Lastly, I hear the democrats complaining and saying what is happening is wrong, but I have yet to see another proposal from the democrats that actually helps to solve the problem. It is pretty clear that the voting public is against raises taxes, so any proposal should avoid that as an option. Hansel, you got any ideas?

BTW, I think rather than a beer, you should let me know when the ice goes out of the lakes over there and I'll haul the Sport over and in addition to the beer, we can get a couple of sets in!

it kills me, not off subject, but they set up these electronic gambling houses over here in Brunswick, it was a 500 car parking lot and normally you would have 10 cars in the lot going to Subway for a sandwich. I swear to God, since the opening you can not find a parking spot at lunch...all these blue hairs smoking out front of the joint giving back their social security....pretty odd to see the reasoning of these people giving their money away, but pay taxes?? forget about it

Hi Steve,

Sorry about that; when I read it now it comes off as incredibly condescending... Ouch!

Still, I said most. I can tell that you are a critical thinker who knows what he believes and why he believes it. I cannot, and should not, find any fault in that. However, based on much of what I read (not necessarily on CCFan but all over the internet and newspapers) and see on TV many individuals and pundits demonstrate a fundamental logical disconnect between ideology and reality. I think many more people would switch sides if they really stopped for a moment to think about who and what they are actually supporting. Maybe not "most", but many.

Another consideration is the influence of life experience and information sources. Logic needs raw materials, and naturally though I believe I have good information etc., there is nothing to say that I am not drinking some propaganda kool-aid! It is a difficult balance to be passionate and convicted, while also humble. I don't think I excel at the later, and I hope you don't take things the wrong way. It is surely much easier to have a conversation in person, and I hope we get to someday.

Best

Haha! I am a graduate student, so you would probably laugh at my life experience. I have a lot of things to do today, but later tonight it is off to the bowling alley and then the bars. Happy St. Patrick's Day Steve.

Breaking news from the front lines.....

- A liberal judge from Dane County (Madison) has put a "restraining order" on Gov. Walker's Budget Repair bill. So, it can't be implemented now until a court fight. The grounds for the restraining order are that "the bill was voted on without adequate time for all members of the Senate to be there in time for the vote".

I wonder if that was because the 14 liberal senators were hiding out down at the Key Lime Water Park in Gurnee, IL at the time, and couldn't get changed out of their swim suits in time to make it back to Madison.   

- Other news: A convention display mfg. company is moving from IL (newly increased taxes)to Wisconsin (newly lowerd corporate taxes and incentives) because the owner of the company felt that Wisconsin was headed in the right direction, and Illinois was headed in the wrong direction. Along with the company move, with it will come around 100 JOBS!! They will be moving from Crystal Lake, IL (next town over from me) to Pleasant Prairie, WI.

- Even more news: Also heard that Walker's approval ratings are headed up as a result of the recent efforts he has made to square away Wisconsin's budget deficits, and set the stage for long term prosperity. In the same article, they indicated Walker's name is now being mentioned as a potential Republican presidential candidate due to his efforts on this matter.