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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 79nautique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-24-2007 at 12:53pm
Originally posted by nuttyskier2002 nuttyskier2002 wrote:


By the way how many engines have you put together over the span of your lifetime? Not counting the ones your dad put together..... but you.


first was a '65 283 SBC, then I did '71 350 Olds, '76 455 olds, then there's the '77 350 and 80's 3.8L Buicks, and then don't forget about the HO 2.3L Quad4 too, want to know more? Want to know about all of the cam changes, intake changes, how about cylinder head replacements too. Or the time I replace my buddies motor in their boat after he throw a rod throw the block two days before his dad was going to Dale Hollow kinda saved there vaction for them that year. So you got any other bullsh*t to spout off about malibu boy
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eric lavine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-24-2007 at 2:14pm
79, you are the Clint Eastwood of this site....hands down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BuffaloBFN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-24-2007 at 3:57pm
Thanks for the info on the summit house brand. I noticed they were a little cheaper, and I'll check on the valves and springs too. Those need to be replaced anyway, right?
I'm going to get the pcm service manual from marine engine, and I'll get some #'s up after I get the parts to the shop monday.
Are there better and worse types/brands of bearings?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nuttyskier2002 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-24-2007 at 4:44pm
Originally posted by 79nautique 79nautique wrote:

Originally posted by nuttyskier2002 nuttyskier2002 wrote:


By the way how many engines have you put together over the span of your lifetime? Not counting the ones your dad put together..... but you.


first was a '65 283 SBC, then I did '71 350 Olds, '76 455 olds, then there's the '77 350 and 80's 3.8L Buicks, and then don't forget about the HO 2.3L Quad4 too, want to know more? Want to know about all of the cam changes, intake changes, how about cylinder head replacements too. Or the time I replace my buddies motor in their boat after he throw a rod throw the block two days before his dad was going to Dale Hollow kinda saved there vaction for them that year. So you got any other bullsh*t to spout off about malibu boy


So with all that engine building experience that you claim to have, why didn't you build your own engine for your own boat? And don't come back and say you did because you've already told everyone here that you bought it from Jasper.

Why do you feel the need to hammer people on the site? What is up with you. Your word is NOT gospel. Opinions vary widely amongst mechanics as to what is the best setup. I've built at least as many engines as you stated above here and then some so learn who you are talking to my man! Also, instead of hammering people for their thoughts, why don't you offer some of your own....constructively? Do you feel the need to start a fight? I remember once coming to your defense on another inboard boat site (not this one) supporting your claim about the value of ASE certifications. Do you remember that? I also ask your advice one time (on this site) about a Holley double pumper carb. All I got from you in return was ridicule. You are some piece of serious work my friend. One more question for you....why did you sell your boat. Was it because you figured out after all it was a piece of sh*t or did you need to money to hire a brain shrink?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nuttyskier2002 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-24-2007 at 4:58pm
Originally posted by BuffaloBFN BuffaloBFN wrote:

This is the description from crane on that part #. I realize I can't use this exact cam, but this summary sounds like what I need.

"Excellent low end torque and HP, good idle, daily usage, off road, towing, performance and fuel efficiency, 2600-3000 cruise RPM, marine applications: primarily used in 454 cu.in. near-stock engines for mild performance applications with free-flowing above water exhaust systems. 8.75 to 10.5 compression ratio advised."

Does a barefoot qualify as free-flowing above water exhaust? They're under water at idle. And how about the compression ratio; our reference section has my motor at 8.12:1?
Thanks again!


BFN, as for your compression with this cam, I'm betting that you will be boring your block and getting new pistons. This will give you the luxury of bumping the compression up to the recommendations of that cam. Just boring the block alone is going to raise it some. Also there are many other things you can do to increase it as well. Some of these are decking the block, milling the heads and thinner head gasket (within reason). How much you do will depend largely on your budget. I can also guide you to a good online static compression calculator.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nuttyskier2002 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-24-2007 at 7:05pm
Oh, and Happy Birthday BFN! Mine's tomorrow.

-Brian
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BuffaloBFN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-24-2007 at 7:38pm
Well a happy birthday to you Brian! And thank you so much you your input and time. I searched and searched for this sort of info.
I know the milling terms from my v-dub days, but I was advised not to 'get talked into raising the compression'. I clearly have more reading to do. I'm sure raising it a little to get into the cam specs would be ok, but you know I don't want to hot rod it, right?
Anyway, I think you're right about it needing to be bored, so maybe that'll be enough.

First things first though. What are the key things to ask the machinist about so I don't fall into the situation 79 described? I think I read here that the crank should be ground in the rotation it will turn in and that cylinder to piston clearance should be .020 for marine(larger than auto). How's my memory on these?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eric lavine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-24-2007 at 7:57pm
your machinist should know this, if not start searching for another one, the thing about going higher on the comp ratio is higher head temps which in a car is fine, there is alot to consider when building a good matching reliable motor for your boat, take your time and absorb all these little things that you are reading and hearing....now unless you want to wipe reid and the boat docs' tug boats, stick to stock but upgrade on the meat and potatoes of the engine, the more the hp the more the hood will be lifted
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nuttyskier2002 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-24-2007 at 8:33pm
Originally posted by BuffaloBFN BuffaloBFN wrote:

Well a happy birthday to you Brian! And thank you so much you your input and time. I searched and searched for this sort of info.
I know the milling terms from my v-dub days, but I was advised not to 'get talked into raising the compression'. I clearly have more reading to do. I'm sure raising it a little to get into the cam specs would be ok, but you know I don't want to hot rod it, right?
Anyway, I think you're right about it needing to be bored, so maybe that'll be enough.

First things first though. What are the key things to ask the machinist about so I don't fall into the situation 79 described? I think I read here that the crank should be ground in the rotation it will turn in and that cylinder to piston clearance should be .020 for marine(larger than auto). How's my memory on these?


You are correct on the crank grinding. The crank or the grinding stone or both should spin opposite of what an automotive one does. It's been a few years since I've watched one being turned so I'm not sure about both, but that would make sense. As for the piston clearance, .020 is way too much. Standard automotive cast pistons are in the range of .0015 to .003 (measured at the skirt). Forged pistons fit a little more lose (like .004 to .006). The pistons I just bought for the 350 Chevy I'm building fit at .005 as recommended by the manufacturer (TRW Forged). The reason for piston fitting a little more lose on marine engines is this: with lake water cooling the engine and ~140 thermostat, the block will run quite a bit cooler than an automotive block. But the piston will still heat up almost as much as the auto one so it will expand.... but the bore will not. Therefore the extra clearance is taken up in thermal expansion of the piston. Always follow what the manufacturer's (of the pistons) recommendations for piston clearance for the intended use. If you buy pistons and this information is not supplied for marine use....contact them. Then when you have the clearances recommended, take them with the block and pistons to your machinist. Tell him you want the block bored and finish honed to those dimensions with torque plates installed on your block. This is nothing new and a good quality machine shop will do this as standard practice. Pick one that will.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 79nautique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-24-2007 at 8:33pm
why did I choose, Jasper? well the one machine shop locally doesn't have the means to balance the rotating assemlby and the other one is an idiot and takes for ever. My buddy found that out the hard way and now he's also learning the guy's not to bright either but maybe his new motor will stop burning oil some day. Oh and there is the deal with the block being cracked so it really is un-useable, but Jasper would take as a core at full value and then a 18 month warrenty too. Pretty simple logic actually and they sponsor a friends cars so a few extra tweaks where made that normally would have been done how car you loose.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nuttyskier2002 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-24-2007 at 8:39pm
Originally posted by 79nautique 79nautique wrote:

why did I choose, Jasper? well the one machine shop locally doesn't have the means to balance the rotating assemlby and the other one is an idiot and takes for ever. My buddy found that out the hard way and now he's also learning the guy's not to bright either but maybe his new motor will stop burning oil some day. Oh and there is the deal with the block being cracked so it really is un-useable, but Jasper would take as a core at full value and then a 18 month warrenty too. Pretty simple logic actually and they sponsor a friends cars so a few extra tweaks where made that normally would have been done how car you loose.


Sounds like you made a wise decision. Don't you miss your boat? Looking for a replacement or do you already have one? Future project?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BuffaloBFN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-24-2007 at 10:46pm
Nutty, that's a great explanation on the piston clearance. Understanding is so much better than just having the #'s. Heck, I even know what a torque plate is now. We used to pitch the jugs on the v-dubs, so I'm learning a lot here.
I think I'll go talk to him some more without parts in hand. If anything doesn't sound right I can keep looking, and if anyone knows a shop in the atlanta area...

I'm soakin' it in Eric...and I just reminded myself that I'm not in a hurry! LOL

I've had a few days to work on it this week; maybe I'll pull the floor up tomorrow?!!?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nuttyskier2002 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-24-2007 at 11:52pm
BFN, keep in mind that the numbers I posted above are only ballpark figures. You need to get the specs from the piston manufacturer.

I ordered my parts from Summit. Went with TRW forged pistons, Clevite 77 "P" series bearings, Speedpro moly rings. Arizona Speed and Marine is doing my block work. TRW recommends .005 for my clearance which I first thought was a little lose. But my machinist said he was going with that spec due to it being raw water cooled. He will be milling my block some (approx. .020) to reduce the "quench" dimension to .040-.045 with a .039 thick head gasket. My cam is a Comp Cams roller with 212/218 and .488/.495 lift and 112 lobe separation. My static compression based on a 64cc combustion chamber will be 8.6:1 as my pistons have a 21cc D shaped dish. My heads are Vortec type but not made by Chevy. Instead they came from Racing Head Service located in Memphis Tenn. They are equipped with stainless valves, Comp Cams springs (recommended by them for cam), screw in studs, teflon seals. My intake is a Weiand and is very similar to the Performer. I know my compression may be a tad on the low side (I'd like it to be about 9.2:1) but the engine guys at ASM say I should get about 330 HP out of this. Thoughts?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eric lavine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-25-2007 at 12:34am
Im curious nutty, why didnt you stroke? the curve on a stroker is a perfect match for a ski boat, at this point it sounds like you also still have time, the last stroker kit i bought from a speed shop out of Las vegas, crank, pistons , rods , rings, it was $699 and 75.00 to ship, crank was balanced and relieved already and all quality parts, dollar for dollar it was the best 100 horse i ever bought
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nuttyskier2002 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-25-2007 at 1:00am
I probably should have went that route to begin with but at first I was only going to do a cam, intake and head upgrade because my motor is still good (<300 hrs). But when I found out that vortec heasds work best with a D-shape dish type piston, i decided to go ahead and buy a core engine and start fresh. I've purchased my parts already so I'm going to stay the course. A stroker would be a very nice upgrade though. I appreciate the thought.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BuffaloBFN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-25-2007 at 9:14am
A few more...is the edge wear on the cam normal?





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BuffaloBFN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-25-2007 at 11:48am
The engine manual in the reference section here has 2 compression specs for my motor unless I'm reading something wrong...
page 14 - 8.12:1
page 15 - 8.8:1
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 79nautique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-25-2007 at 11:55am
the cam where doesn't look too normal to me. I don't think you had much time left on it. The case harding looks like it's almost worn throw and then the lobes start to go next. So it looks like you caught it in time.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BuffaloBFN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-25-2007 at 12:16pm
Thanks for your input 79...it's worse than it looks in the pic. Case hardening worn through? This'll sound stupid, but do you mean where the 'silver' has worn off of the lobes? On 3 of the lobes, the wear looks close to even but is worn through the silver; on the rest, the wear is on the rear edge of the lobe in relation to the motor and worn through. Seems to me that the wear should be centered on the lobes, but I'm in school here.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nuttyskier2002 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-25-2007 at 1:00pm
BFN, refresh my memory a little....Is the the motor that has ~2500 hrs?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eric lavine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-25-2007 at 1:01pm
now you know why we stress a roller, it eliminates those wear patterns you are seeing, the metal didnt disappear its somewhere in that motor,that is pretty much normal wear, normal in the aspect of not as many oil changes, high hours, dirty oil, heavy spring pressure and so on. sometimes the lifter holes are not perfectly perpendicular to the cam. take a good look at the wear on the lifters that rode on those lobes, I know your putting new lifters in. case hardening is like a chocalate covered cherry the surface is hard and the center is soft, i dont know if they harden the cams through or case harden them.
Greg, are you doing all the assembly work or is the machine shop?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eric lavine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-25-2007 at 1:07pm
BTW, the crank looks beatiful, I dont grind unless i have to, Mic. it, and if it is in spec re-use and plastic guage,
If you have light scratches it can be polished with out going to the next size
If you dont spend the money grinding the crank, take the money and have it balanced with the HB and FW attached (if possible).
When it gets to the knitty gritty of assemble, I weigh all the rods on my gram scale and grind the cast areas to even them out on the weight, I also do this with the pistons, i grind at the bottem squirt evenly on both sides. some guys say all that extra stuff you do doesnt make a difference .....there the ones always working on thier sh*t
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BuffaloBFN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-25-2007 at 1:26pm
Originally posted by nuttyskier2002 nuttyskier2002 wrote:

BFN, refresh my memory a little....Is the the motor that has ~2500 hrs?


I'd say that is close...could be over or under, but I'd guess that's a fair estimate. This boat has a long history starting with a lot of footing and more recently, a wakeboard school and a local outlaw team. One of those outlaws is a pro in orlando now(last I heard).
FWIW the hour meter has 1700 on it now and was disconnected...intentionally I think.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BuffaloBFN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-25-2007 at 1:40pm
Originally posted by eric lavine eric lavine wrote:

Greg, are you doing all the assembly work or is the machine shop?


I'm doing the assembly, except things you guys tell me not to do...like the cam bearings you mentioned. And I've done a bunch of oil changes since I got it in '05, but it was rusted tight at that time. I soaked the cylinders with oil for a few days and still couldn't turn it with the crank bolt...had to use the torque of the starter to break it loose.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eric lavine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-25-2007 at 1:47pm
One thing you may want to do during the surgery is to store the crank vertically on the floor if you dont have it that way already. Now this is only my opinion... I dont use high volume oil pumps i never had any good reason to say this is why i use a high volume pump, i have reasons not to but i am open on this subject, my reasons not too: they rob horsepower, the extra pressure loads the bearings, the higher volume of oil foams loosing its ability to lubricate
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eric lavine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-25-2007 at 2:44pm
your also at the point and a fresh clean block to switch to synthetics, with a flat tappet lifter you wouldnt want to break in with synthetic,read the instructions, alot of guys switch to synthetics and it really is not a good idea mid-term, it has a tendency to break all of the sludge in the engine free and clog in other areas such as oil galley's and so on. if you start with synthetics you end with synthetics as with normal engine oil. there are a million tricks to do when building your engine. these are things I remember as i go, when painting the block it is real trick to use base coat/ clear coat to make matching. it is durable and can withstand temps up to 350 degrees, i wont coat after coat the block because you will trap the heat and you want to use every available means to release the heat
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BuffaloBFN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-25-2007 at 2:45pm
Originally posted by eric lavine eric lavine wrote:

One thing you may want to do during the surgery is to store the crank vertically on the floor


I didn't have it this way, but I do now. This is common practice? I know what happens to wood when it's not stored right, but what's the deal on this?

If you see anything else I shouldn't do, please don't hesitate to tell me! LOL
I should've titled this thread 'greenhorn and his big block?!!?   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nuttyskier2002 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-25-2007 at 2:51pm
Ditto on the HV oil pump. It is not needed. The big block already has a larger pump with more teeth and is more than capable. Also, you don't need the added stress on your distributor gear that it takes to turn the HV pump.

Eric, I've been told the same about standing cranks up vertical. A few very seasoned engine builders and machinist I know say the same so there must be something to that. I've never experienced one bending but who wants to take the risk. Glad you pointed this out....I was going to in an earlier post but somehow forgot. You guys have a great day today....I getting ready to pull my Christmas decorations out of the attic. Talk later. –Brian
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eric lavine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-25-2007 at 2:54pm
Nutty, did you buy your cam set yet? i have a complete set up out of a 5.7 with 11 hours on it, it is damn close to the speced cam you are looking at, it is a roller and is a factory set-up from Merc. it is in brand new condition also with it is the double roller set-up and harmonic balance,
the boat wasnt winterized and i stripped the old block which was new and installed a new engine for the guy. I will give the cam set away if someone will use it in thier motor.
i saved it for the next stroker rebuild and wouldnt hesitate using it, Merc specs thier cams for marine use and are backed by R and D. its not a croassover it was designed for marine use
"the things you own will start to own you"
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eric lavine View Drop Down
Grand Poobah
Grand Poobah


Joined: August-13-2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 13413
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eric lavine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-25-2007 at 3:14pm
you dont find out its bent until you torque the caps, it doesnt take much, i will always put the crank in first and torque, they do sell which is another great addition is stud kits (A.R.E)for the crank instead of bolts, bolts stretch even after a single use. with new studs you wont get that strip feeling when you torque the bolts. if you get it torqued and it locks up the crank then you know you have a bend. its right if you turn by hand and its the smoothest thing you've ever felt and no drag, you really should use plastic gauge and look at every marking on the bearings to make sure they are the correct ones. one other tool i do use is a oil pump priming tool and once the pan is on and all rods a caps assembled I'll keep priming the oil pump, you can make one if your crafty, you can use a socket and old screwdriver and turn it with your drill, you may also want the cam installed when priming,the cam also should be as smooth as butter and dont approach it if it has some drag in them that it will loosen up on start up...it wont, remove and inspect, even a small piece of dirt will cause a drag. When cleaning your internals use brake cleaner and air to dry, never ever wipe your parts with rags. it will clog the pick up screen
"the things you own will start to own you"
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