Modern Materials for Stringer Rehab |
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Gneil
Groupie Joined: December-07-2017 Location: Philadelphia Status: Offline Points: 42 |
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Rodger,
Hats off to the Ballast tanks and stringer/floor job you linked me to. Wow!!! Quite the craftsman. Very impressive. I sincerely enjoy the poof of concept the images and description provides. Did you vacuum bag any of your parts or just lay-up and set? I would imagine if you are doing such a complex form vacuum bagging might complicate matters in the wrong way. Brilliant Job!!! |
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G. Neil
1980 SN |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Gregory,
You've mentioned vacuum bagging a couple times. Although a great method, I feel it would definitely complicate a stringer job and really isn't needed With careful layup and using a layup roller will do the job very well. |
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Gneil
Groupie Joined: December-07-2017 Location: Philadelphia Status: Offline Points: 42 |
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Hello Pete,
This is a fine tool. Ive seen them used quite often in videos an such but I've still not outfitted myself with all the gadgets quite yet. Looking forward to buying one or two of these. I would equate this roller with a hammer for carpentry I think. Just feeling out the state-of-the-art with these threads prior to buying the toys and trying to figure out where ill fit in. This sort of boat repair is something I've never done before. Lots to think about. Thanks so much for sharing. Trust me! Ill certainly keep all you guys in the loop as the project starts to take shape. I appreciate your motto, "keep it original" but I just want to tweek a few things so I don't have to deal with rot in the stringers. Any other benefits i can gain in the process all the better. Always willing to listen and learn. Im enjoying the process already. Lots of Fun! |
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G. Neil
1980 SN |
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Duane in Indy
Platinum Member Joined: October-26-2015 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 1578 |
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OMG How could you do something that is not "Original"??? I for one could not sleep at night. |
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Keep it as original as YOU want it
1978 Mustang (modified) |
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Hollywood
Moderator Group Joined: February-04-2004 Location: Twin Lakes, WI Status: Offline Points: 13512 |
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I don't sleep at night and also have a sad life.
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MourningWood
Gold Member Joined: June-13-2014 Location: NorCal Status: Offline Points: 891 |
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Interesting stuff for sure...
First, Gneil, thanks for starting this new thread. I started the "hull modification' thread and have managed to morph it into an engine/boat 'diet' thread. Really, I jacked my own thread... Anyway, referenced in that thread is a link to a gen2 SN component weight chart. I found it surprising that a full composite stringer/floor system added 60 lbs. to the hull (if I read it right). So while interesting and worthy of discussion and exploration, not convinced that the materials costs outweigh the benefits. Pretty sure more can be done with new wood replacements to ensure a longer stringer life than was achieved by the factory. |
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1994 Ski Nautique "Riot"
1964 Dunphy X-55 "One 'N Dun" 'I measured twice, cut three times, and it's still too short!" |
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Gneil
Groupie Joined: December-07-2017 Location: Philadelphia Status: Offline Points: 42 |
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Hi Brian,
Thank you for the response. I must confess, again. I would like to use traditional materials. But......I would also not to ever have to worry again about the integrity of the hidden structure of the the boat. I am very capable with wood working and it's kind of a easy solution for me. Although, my time and effort significantly out weight the cost of materials. So, in my mind if I'm going to do the repair could I potentially improve the spec.s of the OEM by eliminating the rot of the material. To reference your thread on the weight of the base material, Im just going along with published spec.s of material like coosa board. I don't have a sample of coosa yet but Ill have one in a few days. I hope Ill know a bit more then. With wood in mind, would you consider a baltic birch ply or would you use spruce? |
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G. Neil
1980 SN |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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If you consider any wood, a CPES is a must. |
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Gneil
Groupie Joined: December-07-2017 Location: Philadelphia Status: Offline Points: 42 |
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Hey Pete,
Thank you! LVLs are not out of the question. Do you have any sources for CPES? Alway good to do a through search in weighing out my options. |
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G. Neil
1980 SN |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Gregory,
I've always used Smiths (rotdoc) CPES and feel it's a great product despite the rather high cost. The other day I found I was running low on my supply of Rotdoc so I decided to order some Total Boat penetrating. since I am hearing good things about Jamestown's Total Boat line. I haven't had the opportunity to use it yet but will report when I do. I will per the instructions mix it with acetone to further reduce it's viscosity. |
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Gneil
Groupie Joined: December-07-2017 Location: Philadelphia Status: Offline Points: 42 |
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Pete,
I've used west system products before and was very satisfied. Although, I have never priced out west products against others. I have heard it is the pricy option. Like you I have heard lots about total boat products and plan to do some local searches to see if there is something close by. The topic of drawings for the gen2 SN hull seems to be rare bird and still hoping to find a set. Wish me luck. Till then, Cheers! |
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G. Neil
1980 SN |
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uk1979
Platinum Member Joined: June-13-2007 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 1413 |
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Gregory thanks for the kind words ... I only used a cheepo vacuum pump I had at the time on my battery box ... yes I found it a pain to do that's why I used what I had to hand in the factory clear pallet stretch wrap ... found the 2 ft wide is best as its thicker if you need narrower just cut the roll to size on a saw. There are many great minds here from all walks of life that gives the site a great knowledge bank to call on . Don't over think the build and keep your eye on the prize a boat back on the water running documenting everything takes a lot of time . |
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Lets have a go
56 Starflite 77 SN 78 SN 80 BFN |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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If you do go the LVL route, order them without the water resistant coating. Delivery will take longer since the coating is done at the mill and not at the distributor so plan ahead. If you do get them with the coating, a 36 grit belt in a belt sander will remove it in a hurry. Don't worry about removing material in the thickness since remember the LVL will be 1.75" thick compared to a 2X at 1.5". |
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Gneil
Groupie Joined: December-07-2017 Location: Philadelphia Status: Offline Points: 42 |
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good morning roger,
Thank you for your encouragement and experience. Part of my thought process and training is to plan and document prior to implementation. Its very hard for me to except a "one off" strategy without documentation, so if not for me maybe this effort will help the next fan. As you cracked the dreaded dust problem, I see the stringer issue as one that still needs some help and opportunity for improvement. As a carpenter you come by this naturally, most do not. Also problem solving is fun, sometimes mad fun! I truly appreciate the great minds here in this forum and love the enthusiasm in making and then enjoy the fruits of our labor. The way I see it, if i get a good nights sleep, I'm not overthink it. ...Ha... |
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G. Neil
1980 SN |
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21136 |
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Can you restate? I am not following. While the cost/benefit of the higher end composite fabrics may not be significant in this application, there is certainly some weight benefits of going to a composite core material. Cost difference is in the $500-1000 range, which is relatively small considering the size of the project (especially when taking the number of labor hours into account). |
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Gneil
Groupie Joined: December-07-2017 Location: Philadelphia Status: Offline Points: 42 |
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Good morning Pete,
LVL's are a good source of material that will provide proper structure as a ready-made material. A couple of questions that come to mind, without knowing the answers are; how does the weight of the material and efficiency of the form effect the overall structure? And might there be a modern form with a traditional material, similar to an air plane wing, that would provide a ready made model for this application? I understand the hull and the floor as doing this with the stringers connecting the two surfaces. Maybe just food for thought. Thank you for the tip of ordering the LVL's with out the coating. I'm guessing this will help with the penetration and adhesion of the CPES. Is this also the thought behind thinning the epoxy with acetone? I also saw the 1 3/4" thickness issue with LVLs. Thanks for the heads up with this. |
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G. Neil
1980 SN |
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JoeinNY
Grand Poobah Joined: October-19-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5697 |
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There is some confusion here, Roger didnt have access to Coosa on the other side of the pond and used a material that was significantly heavier and added a few pounds over wood - IIRC |
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Gneil
Groupie Joined: December-07-2017 Location: Philadelphia Status: Offline Points: 42 |
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Hey All,
As many here may know, "Coosa advertises 40-60% lighter than ply-wood". I can't wait for my samples to arrive. Thank you Joe for providing some clarity. Your experience is valued here. |
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G. Neil
1980 SN |
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Gneil
Groupie Joined: December-07-2017 Location: Philadelphia Status: Offline Points: 42 |
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Hey Guys,
(...now for something completely different...) I just got off the phone with Sandra at C&S Marine in NJ. She and I had a very productive conversation regarding the design and construction of the new stern seat that i'll have them make for me. Stay tuned. She is sending some samples today. As soon as I figure out the photo posting drill, I will be happy to share any and all that I find out. (don't worry Pete, I'm planning on using the "original" design nothing too zuity or ahead of its time ) I'm looking forward to working with her as she is 3rd gen. upholsters. Very cool! |
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G. Neil
1980 SN |
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Duane in Indy
Platinum Member Joined: October-26-2015 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 1578 |
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You seem to be weight conscious. I have similar feelings concerning weight. That is why I fabbed up for my stern seat frames, very light aluminum. You may be interested in looking at my thread "MUSTANG 17 REBUILD". I removed a lot of original weight and built many parts with light weight in mind. I have even built a ski pylon out of aluminum tubing that is exact replica of the 30+ pound original. It is for looks only as I would not trust it for pulling. Plans are to weigh the boat in a week or so and see what the final figure is. Duane |
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Keep it as original as YOU want it
1978 Mustang (modified) |
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Gneil
Groupie Joined: December-07-2017 Location: Philadelphia Status: Offline Points: 42 |
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Hi Duane,
Very impressive!!! How do you plan to keep them in one place? Also, if they are light do you plan to put them in and take them out frequently? Growing up my Dad had a '86 2001. He had a stern seat that fit like a glove, and i mean that actually it was a sort of friction fit at least the bottom cushion. the seat back was a typical snap in type that hung from the top deck. I think this was OEM. All in all it was cool because if you and a couple of guys were out for some hardcore skiing we just popped it out and left it on the doc. Otherwise you could flop it in when the crew is just out for a spin (i mean high speed turns) the one I plan to make is along those lines with some updated materials and fastening details. Your aluminum frame reminds me of early aircraft framed seats. Seems like it would be extremely light. very cool fab' !!! any designs in the upholstery yet? One thing about the monolithic foam block type, is that they are heavy. ugh! |
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G. Neil
1980 SN |
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Duane in Indy
Platinum Member Joined: October-26-2015 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 1578 |
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Rear seat: bottom hinges and back hooks Front seat: hinges |
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Keep it as original as YOU want it
1978 Mustang (modified) |
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Gneil
Groupie Joined: December-07-2017 Location: Philadelphia Status: Offline Points: 42 |
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Duane,
All I can say, Is... SWEET !!! |
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G. Neil
1980 SN |
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Gneil
Groupie Joined: December-07-2017 Location: Philadelphia Status: Offline Points: 42 |
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I like the color scheme as well. What weight carpet did you end up using? Looks like 32 oz?
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G. Neil
1980 SN |
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uk1979
Platinum Member Joined: June-13-2007 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 1413 |
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Hi Gregory, Yes I can confirm my stringers are fabricated out glass fibre sheets not the best for weight but strong, It was all I could find here in the UK back then. Have fun with your build I will enjoy what you come up with … most use epoxy but some like vinylester resin or old school polyester resin … as for core many ways to go … Douglass fir build with CEPS , LVLs with CEPS , coosa 26, airex pxc, laminating your own up using 1/2 high density 25 to 30 lb urethane sheet just a few …it will come down to availability over cost over durability and personal preference in the end, remember some need more layup which is a cost.
Do what works for you as that is all that matters. Shall keep an eye on your progress and welcome to the site. |
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Lets have a go
56 Starflite 77 SN 78 SN 80 BFN |
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Gneil
Groupie Joined: December-07-2017 Location: Philadelphia Status: Offline Points: 42 |
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Hey Roger,
Thank you so much for the encouragement. Very important coming from a seasoned fabricator like yourself. All I can say at this point is that Ill be using an epoxy resin. (West Sys. type) Of the limited research that I've done, this seems to be the easiest to use and has the best compatibility with many dissimilar materials that I will be using for my rebuilding of the stringers and floor. Other than that, it is early days for me and i can tell from this group that the quality bar is so high, I'm not sure I can see it yet. Thank you for you gracious and inviting words. Cool guys! I'm feeling comfortable already. Cheers! |
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G. Neil
1980 SN |
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Gneil
Groupie Joined: December-07-2017 Location: Philadelphia Status: Offline Points: 42 |
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To whom it may concern;
Wow!.... Wow!...Wow!...Wow!!!! I just got my delivery of Coosa Bluewater 26. When i first picked up the package I thought there was a mistake. I thought they forgot to pack the sample. To my amazement out of the envelop dropped a 2"x2"x1/2" graphite colored square. This stuff is insanely light! truly it is amazing. As far as the 80SN, Im not sure if I will use it but, seriously, its Very Cool Stuff!!! If not the stringer rehab, Ill use it somewhere. Seat backs, floor panels, stern panel that covers the fuel cell...etc. So, this brings it full circle with Joe in NY, I get it Joe. This glass reinforced polyurthane is intense. A+ on the material choice. |
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G. Neil
1980 SN |
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quinner
Grand Poobah Joined: October-12-2005 Location: Unknown Status: Offline Points: 5828 |
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Gregory, email me or PM me your email address and I will send you the AutoCAD .dwg file Roger created if you want. My EM is CQuinn@GFGR.com. I should probably just send it to Keith also so he could put it in the reference section.
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MourningWood
Gold Member Joined: June-13-2014 Location: NorCal Status: Offline Points: 891 |
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Any recent update available?
Am also working out plans for a 'lightweight' '81, with the dreaded stringer rehab coming this fall/winter. Almost finished with motor/trans for now. |
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1994 Ski Nautique "Riot"
1964 Dunphy X-55 "One 'N Dun" 'I measured twice, cut three times, and it's still too short!" |
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Gneil
Groupie Joined: December-07-2017 Location: Philadelphia Status: Offline Points: 42 |
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MW,
Hey there! Not much to report here I've been hunkered down here with work...sometimes when it rains it pours! All good though I plan to start the demo etc. in about a month. Chomping at the bit. I can't wait to get into it ; ))). I Have to buy a couple of tools but other than that I'm ready to go. After the demo I will do a precise survey of the hull and map out exactly where the new stringers are going to go. Still leaning toward the Corsa 26 material. "I hate rot"!!! so I'm looking forward to the build and excited to make some little tweeks her and there to utilize that space as best as I can. Still have not made up my mind in the color scheme. I may just go traditional but thinking of some other options too. Hum... Plenty of time for that stuff. Also thinking of some engine mods. heads, intake manifold, things like that. First things first. (that means stringer and floor demo. I plan to do the wet grind method, complete with a catch basin and filter sys. I have a couple of ideas but thinking about building a temporary heat shrink wrap cover to climate control the elements. Here's a question.... Have you ever heard of any one demoing the stringers with out removing the engine ? Sounds silly, but if I don't need to I'd rather not. How everyone had a great winter so far. Spring skiing in right around the corner! Cheers! G. Neil. |
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G. Neil
1980 SN |
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